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grooVe
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Posted: 1/18/2005 1:59:12 AM
[Last Edit: 1/18/2005 1:59:34 AM by grooVe]
What are the legal differences between an ar15 type pistol and a SBR?

Could I build a SBR M4 on a pistol lower and be legal?

I really like the look of the 14.5 barrel on a true M4, but don't want to have to do the NFA thing just for barrel length. I would much rather only have to bother myself with that if I ever wanted a suppressor or FA. Anyways, thanks for any input guys.
Redbone
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Posted: 1/18/2005 6:35:54 AM

Originally Posted By grooVe:
What are the legal differences between an ar15 type pistol and a SBR?

Could I build a SBR M4 on a pistol lower and be legal?

I really like the look of the 14.5 barrel on a true M4, but don't want to have to do the NFA thing just for barrel length. I would much rather only have to bother myself with that if I ever wanted a suppressor or FA. Anyways, thanks for any input guys.



SBR has a stock and the pistol does not

You can build a SBR on a pistol lower but you cannot use the lower for a pistol build again.

grooVe
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Posted: 1/18/2005 7:00:35 AM
[Last Edit: 1/18/2005 7:01:10 AM by grooVe]
So could I legally build a "rifle" with a short barrel (14.5 inches) on a pistol lower and have it be viewed as a pistol and therefor get around the NFA hassle?
rockytherotty
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Posted: 1/18/2005 7:45:44 AM
[Last Edit: 1/18/2005 7:46:24 AM by rockytherotty]
NO not really, if you do that you cannot have any kind of a stock on it. Once you put a stock on that pistol lower and if you are using a short barrel then it DOES become a SBR. If you don't have it registered a s a SBR you are screwed. If you have a pistol lower you can build it as a pistol or a LEGAL length rifle and even back to a pistol again, but no SBR!
MadDogDan
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Posted: 1/18/2005 8:39:07 AM
I wanted an SBR and like you didn't want to do the paperwork or spend the $200 for the tax stamp. I built a Pistol instead with a CAR Buffer Tube. With the longer buffer tube and a foam sleeve installed I get the same cheekweld as you would with a rifle except nothing touches the shoulder. The stock portion of the buffer tube can never be reinstalled hence the Pistol designation instead of Rifle. This Pistol / quasi-SBR is very quick to shoulder (cheekweld actually) and dead on accurate out to 75 meters. I consider it my "poor man's SBR".

MadDog
FMD
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Posted: 1/18/2005 8:39:59 AM
[Last Edit: 1/18/2005 8:48:05 AM by FMD]

Originally Posted By grooVe:
What are the legal differences between an ar15 type pistol and a SBR?

Could I build a SBR M4 on a pistol lower and be legal?

I really like the look of the 14.5 barrel on a true M4, but don't want to have to do the NFA thing just for barrel length.



An AR Pistol can be built from a lower that has never had a buttstock installed. Depending on your State regs, you may have to fufill the requirements of a a pistol puchase (registration, waiting period, etc), despite this, the ATF claims that the 4473 should be logged as a "stripped lower", nothing more, nothing less, if you intend to build a pistol.

There is no Federal requirement that the receiver be logged out of the manufacturer as a pistol, be marked as a pistol, or that you fill out the 4473 as a pistol.

You may then build that "pistol" lower with a non-buttstock buffer system, and the upper of your choice (7, 10, 11, 14, - hell, you can put a 24" Varminter if you want). You then have yourself a legitimate pistol.

ETA: Just don't put a forward pistol grip on the HG. The BATFE considers that configuration an "Any Other Weapon", and would require it's own Form 1.

You may add a buttstock to that lower without the SBR tax stamp, if, and only if, your upper has an overall barrel legth of 16" or longer (again, state law may apply here, and you could be SOL).

The SBR requires an NFA Tax stamp; You will need to fill out a Form 1 in duplicate, have your fingerprints done in duplicate, have the CLEO in your area approve of your intended purchase, send it all to the BATFE, and wait several months for them to sign off on it.

You may then put the pertinent info on the lower you requested for the SBR, and add an upper that is less than 16". This can be done with either a "rifle" or "pistol" receiver, but it must be the one that you listed on your Form 1.

If you want the 14.5" length barrel WITH a buttstock, you have two choices:

Fill out the Form1, and get the NFA tax stamp.

Purchase an M4 style upper, and have a 1.75" flash hider (extended A2 or Phantom) pinned and welded to the barrel.

I hope that answers you question fully.

-FMD




Edited to correct the spelling of receiver, and to add the AOW stuff
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Big-Bore
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Posted: 1/18/2005 10:30:00 AM

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By grooVe:
What are the legal differences between an ar15 type pistol and a SBR?

Could I build a SBR M4 on a pistol lower and be legal?

I really like the look of the 14.5 barrel on a true M4, but don't want to have to do the NFA thing just for barrel length.



An AR Pistol can be built from a lower that has never had a buttstock installed. Depending on your State regs, you may have to fufill the requirements of a a pistol puchase (registration, waiting period, etc), despite this, the ATF claims that the 4473 should be logged as a "stripped lower", nothing more, nothing less, if you intend to build a pistol.

There is no Federal requirement that the receiver be logged out of the manufacturer as a pistol, be marked as a pistol, or that you fill out the 4473 as a pistol.

You may then build that "pistol" lower with a non-buttstock buffer system, and the upper of your choice (7, 10, 11, 14, - hell, you can put a 24" Varminter if you want). You then have yourself a legitimate pistol.

ETA: Just don't put a forward pistol grip on the HG. The BATFE considers that configuration an "Any Other Weapon", and would require it's own Form 1.

You may add a buttstock to that lower without the SBR tax stamp, if, and only if, your upper has an overall barrel legth of 16" or longer (again, state law may apply here, and you could be SOL).

The SBR requires an NFA Tax stamp; You will need to fill out a Form 1 in duplicate, have your fingerprints done in duplicate, have the CLEO in your area approve of your intended purchase, send it all to the BATFE, and wait several months for them to sign off on it.

You may then put the pertinent info on the lower you requested for the SBR, and add an upper that is less than 16". This can be done with either a "rifle" or "pistol" receiver, but it must be the one that you listed on your Form 1.

If you want the 14.5" length barrel WITH a buttstock, you have two choices:

Fill out the Form1, and get the NFA tax stamp.

Purchase an M4 style upper, and have a 1.75" flash hider (extended A2 or Phantom) pinned and welded to the barrel.

I hope that answers you question fully.

-FMD
Edited to correct the spelling of receiver, and to add the AOW stuff



+1
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kidcaos
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Posted: 1/18/2005 1:54:30 PM
Well said FMD.
grooVe
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Posted: 1/19/2005 3:15:46 AM
[Last Edit: 1/19/2005 3:19:51 AM by grooVe]
Rocky, MadDog, FMD; you guys are what make ARFCOM such a great place. Thanks for all the info. You guys have helped out me completely. Thanks again guys!

Edited to say:

Hey MadDog, not to change the subject, but how well does a round from your "pistol" penetrate/fragment? I have heard that the shorter barrel causes lower velocites which makes the round very ineffective in self defense. Is this true? I would think 5.56 would still do a good enough job.
MadDogDan
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Posted: 1/19/2005 8:25:14 AM
grooVe -

I don't know how well the 5.56 penetrates or fragments from the shorter barrel because I have been shooting steel plates at 75 meters and the rounds that I have retrieved have been destroyed. I do know that they still put a hurtin on the plates but do not go completely through. Despite what all the naysayers say on this forum, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an AR Pistol. I currently keep an FN Five-seveN 5.7x28 (like to think of it as a very hot .223 short) on the night stand for Home Protection. I am in the process of getting a Noise Suppressor for my AR Pistol and as soon as it arrives I can use my AR for Home Protection and not worry about hearing loss or muzzle flash from shooting it indoors if it is needed.

The great thing about a home office is that I can keep this little gem on my desk while working (or not working is more like it) and play with it all day even if I can't go shooting.

MadDog
PALADIN-hgwt
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Posted: 1/19/2005 9:48:14 AM

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
I wanted an SBR and like you didn't want to do the paperwork or spend the $200 for the tax stamp.

I consider it my "poor man's SBR".

MadDog



I predict...thanks to the efforts of BONEHEADS deliberately blurring the distinction between AR pistols and SBR's, that eventually the BATF will declare them(AR pistols) "destructive devices" and ban them like they did the "Striker"/"Streetsweeper" Shotguns. Thanks for nothing...

Paladin
98Zixxer
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Posted: 1/19/2005 10:30:20 AM

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
I wanted an SBR and like you didn't want to do the paperwork or spend the $200 for the tax stamp.

I consider it my "poor man's SBR".

MadDog



I predict...thanks to the efforts of BONEHEADS deliberately blurring the distinction between AR pistols and SBR's, that eventually the BATF will declare them(AR pistols) "destructive devices" and ban them like they did the "Striker"/"Streetsweeper" Shotguns. Thanks for nothing...

Paladin



His set up is perfectly legit, and prefered by many due to it's reliable operation over the shorty tube.
ducati650
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Posted: 1/19/2005 12:23:38 PM
[Last Edit: 1/19/2005 12:36:06 PM by ducati650]
There was an ATF letter posted a few weeks ago that said you could build a pistol on any lower that was purchased as a stripped lower, was never assembled as a rifle and said it was a stripped lower on the paperwork. They (ATF) also said that a CAR buffer system could be used on the pistol. They made a point of pointing out that if you ever put the buttstock on it or had in your possession a buttstock, even if not installed, it could be an SBR and you could be in violation.

Link to discussion on the subject.

Ed
MadDogDan
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Posted: 1/19/2005 12:28:50 PM
[Last Edit: 1/19/2005 12:31:20 PM by MadDogDan]
PALADIN -

My buffer tube is only 1.5" longer then the one that comes standard on the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol. Tell me how that makes me a "Bonehead". Tell me how my buffer tube makes my AR15 Pistol any different than the commercially produced Bushmaster. If there is any "Bonehead" move it is by Bushmaster who just came out with a rail on the bottom of their handguard which you know someone will put a vert grip on it without filing a form for manufacturing an AOW.

And for the record I have a 12 gauge Street Sweeper (smart enough to buy before the ban) as well as an FN Five-seveN which I use for CCW (smart enough to buy before any upcoming ban).

Get on board and stop your sniveling or shut the F&@K UP.

MadDog
98Zixxer
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Posted: 1/19/2005 12:44:46 PM

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
PALADIN -

My buffer tube is only 1.5" longer then the one that comes standard on the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol. Tell me how that makes me a "Bonehead". Tell me how my buffer tube makes my AR15 Pistol any different than the commercially produced Bushmaster. If there is any "Bonehead" move it is by Bushmaster who just came out with a rail on the bottom of their handguard which you know someone will put a vert grip on it without filing a form for manufacturing an AOW.

And for the record I have a 12 gauge Street Sweeper (smart enough to buy before the ban) as well as an FN Five-seveN which I use for CCW (smart enough to buy before any upcoming ban).

Get on board and stop your sniveling or shut the F&@K UP.

MadDog



I love it when "Boneheads" make "Bonehead" statements like that when they don't know what they are talking about.
PALADIN-hgwt
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Posted: 1/19/2005 8:42:53 PM
I was not referring to the present legal status, we all know what's what.

But making statements implying this is in any way a substitute for an SBR will eventually draw unwanted attention to this class of weapons. I am not knocking your choices to build them, just think you should keep comments about cheek welds(yeah, explain why a pistol requires that!) and SBR's out of the discussion.

The Arf pistol I built way back when used a handgun scope, with eye relief requiring it be held at arms length. No question, it is, or was, a handgun per Federal definitions. A cheek weld on the buffer tube sounds swell, until common sense tells you the rear end is also easily braced against ones shoulder, a "de facto" shoulder stock, regardless of comfort/ergonomics.

Don't take my bonehead remark so personal. My prediction still holds, and the blurring of distinctions between SBR's and Arf pistols IS NOT A GOOD THING.

Paladin
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Posted: 1/19/2005 8:52:32 PM
[Last Edit: 1/19/2005 9:34:05 PM by PALADIN-hgwt]

Originally Posted By 98Zixxer:

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
PALADIN -

My buffer tube is only 1.5" longer then the one that comes standard on the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol. Tell me how that makes me a "Bonehead". Tell me how my buffer tube makes my AR15 Pistol any different than the commercially produced Bushmaster. If there is any "Bonehead" move it is by Bushmaster who just came out with a rail on the bottom of their handguard which you know someone will put a vert grip on it without filing a form for manufacturing an AOW.

And for the record I have a 12 gauge Street Sweeper (smart enough to buy before the ban) as well as an FN Five-seveN which I use for CCW (smart enough to buy before any upcoming ban).

Get on board and stop your sniveling or shut the F&@K UP.

MadDog



I love it when "Boneheads" make "Bonehead" statements like that when they don't know what they are talking about.



Yeah, I don't know squat about Arf pistols, and using carbine length buffer tubes. I'm probably the FIRST one to build that way, and can document my build back to 1993, including ATF correspondence.

There was nothing in print from back then that showed using a CAR length buffer, everything advertised still was using the short spring style tubes similar to what Model 1 is still selling. My buffer tube was MY orginal design, done on my own, without outside help except a single heliarc weld. Even the Bushmaster techs were surprised when I reported excellent, 100% fuctionality of an AR pistol. Have a nice day.

Paladin
PALADIN-hgwt
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Posted: 1/19/2005 9:43:27 PM

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
PALADIN -

My buffer tube is only 1.5" longer then the one that comes standard on the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol. Tell me how that makes me a "Bonehead". Tell me how my buffer tube makes my AR15 Pistol any different than the commercially produced Bushmaster. If there is any "Bonehead" move it is by Bushmaster who just came out with a rail on the bottom of their handguard which you know someone will put a vert grip on it without filing a form for manufacturing an AOW.

And for the record I have a 12 gauge Street Sweeper (smart enough to buy before the ban) as well as an FN Five-seveN which I use for CCW (smart enough to buy before any upcoming ban).

Get on board and stop your sniveling or shut the F&@K UP.

MadDog



You called it a "poor man's SBR", and why do you think that would not imply intent to circumvent NFA regs? You stated clearly you wanted a SBR and did NOT want to pay the NFA fee. That was the "bonehead" stuff I was speaking against. So you resort to profanity, why is that? I am not the one flirting with felonious behavior on a public internet forum...

Paladin
NH_Joe
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Posted: 1/19/2005 9:46:34 PM
I do think paladin makes some very good points about blurring the distinction between SBRs and pistols. - in particular the point about a pistol that allows a cheek weld. I suspect that BATFE might have something negative to say about this if someone were to ask.

BTW, streetsweepers were never banned, they were just declared Destructive Devices, requiring NFA registration. Any that are currently unregistered are contraband.

Joe
MadDogDan
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Posted: 1/19/2005 10:35:53 PM
NH_Joe,

The Bushmaster AR Pistol has been out for a few years with a buffer tube long enough to get a cheek weld. Before Bushmaster, Auto Ordenance made the same pistol with the same buffer tube. I doubt the ATF has said shit about those set ups. I don't think the lines are blurred at all. A butstock is a butstock and a short buffer tube is a short buffer tube. If the ATF says a buffer tube meets the requirements for a pistol, then that is what they mean. Nothing more, nothing less. The ATF can't regulate where you put your face and I am sure they don't want to.

MadDog
grooVe
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Posted: 1/20/2005 2:13:29 AM

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
NH_Joe,

The Bushmaster AR Pistol has been out for a few years with a buffer tube long enough to get a cheek weld. Before Bushmaster, Auto Ordenance made the same pistol with the same buffer tube. I doubt the ATF has said shit about those set ups. I don't think the lines are blurred at all. A butstock is a butstock and a short buffer tube is a short buffer tube. If the ATF says a buffer tube meets the requirements for a pistol, then that is what they mean. Nothing more, nothing less. The ATF can't regulate where you put your face and I am sure they don't want to.

MadDog



+1 Rules are rules you either are adhearing to them or you are not. Paladin, your implicatoin that maddog is flirting with a felony is simply nonsense. During the ban, simply adding a bayonet lug to an AR would constitue a felony. By your reasoning we were ALL flirting with disaster! The point is, you either are legal or you are not. Plain and simple.
PALADIN-hgwt
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Posted: 1/20/2005 10:21:58 AM
You are missing the point about the "rules". Something that is quasi-legal TODAY may be proscribed in the future.

All it takes is BATF waking up, reading comments like MadDogDans, and seeing ONE single person using a reciever extension braced against their shoulder...and it will be "game over" for Arf pistols. Remember, for a moment, that King G2 has just nominated an Attorney General candidate who SUPPORTED the AWB.

Do you know why cheap 7.62x39 steel jacketed ammo from China was banned for import? ONE manufacturer made a few AR style pistols. Period. IIRC, all examples were recovered by the manufacturer. But BATF still banned the "armor piercing" ammo from import, because a "pistol existed that could shoot it".

M855 and SS109 is not classed as AP by BATF...but they have not re-considered the ruling in light of the PISTOLS now commonly available that can fire the round. Think about that...

Paladin



TapperMan
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Posted: 1/20/2005 2:41:37 PM

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:

I predict...thanks to the efforts of BONEHEADS deliberately blurring the distinction between AR pistols and SBR's, that eventually the BATF will declare them(AR pistols) "destructive devices" and ban them like they did the "Striker"/"Streetsweeper" Shotguns. Thanks for nothing...

Paladin



AR pistols could never be declared DDs because they in no way fit the legal definition: they would require a bore larger than .50 inch.
Kaliburz
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Posted: 1/20/2005 3:06:25 PM
[Last Edit: 1/20/2005 3:10:48 PM by Kaliburz]


Interesting talk.....

Lets try not to go into 'reasons' of why one has one or it's usefull purpose. (IE -the BS that certain thing have to have a sporting purpose...... I for one do not agree with that type or reasoning that certane govt buracrats came up with.)



My next pistol build will be using a Vulcan Armament lower and upper....to save weight. And I will use a CAR tube (minus the stock) so that it is truely compatible w/ any upper I slap on it.

"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA
MadDogDan
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Posted: 1/20/2005 3:42:41 PM
Kaliburz -

All I ask is that you post pics of your new build when it if finished.

Awaiting another addition to the AR Pistol Club,
MadDog
Kaliburz
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Posted: 1/21/2005 2:38:25 AM

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
Kaliburz -

All I ask is that you post pics of your new build when it if finished.

Awaiting another addition to the AR Pistol Club,
MadDog




It'll be a long wait. I don't think it'll happen this year......but who knows. That lower is cheap according to the V.A site.....


"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA
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