For you military types, where do you guys like to fit your hand on a 7" rail on the M4? I tried a lot of different configs before I got this the way I thought made the most sense for me. Pic is a clone of our service rifles.

Dual switch behind the PEQ allows for ambi thumb activation while maintaining a functional grip using the VFG thumb over bore grip.

Thoughts?

Good grief, what is all that crap on that rifle?

KAC 7" rail
KAC VFG
PEQ-15 illuminator
Insight M3X light
Insight dual pressure switch for both the light and the box

All standard USAF issue stuff depending on the base/unit.

Lol too much shit on that rifle. Pretty much the same SecFo setup here at Whiteman.

Awkward grip angles tend to fatigue my arm so running the dual switch at 12:00 doesn't work well for me. Running it on the right side of the foregrip works better for me either with a dual tape switch or a single for the PEQ.  You can use your support thumb to activate white light or additional IR from a M952V if your stuck running a civilian ATPIAL-C.

Duplicate

Add a handstop to the front of the bottom rail.  Use the VFG and hand stop to wedge your hand in palm up.  Put the pressure pad/switch on the left side, aproxx where your thump sits.  

It's imperfect.  The right answer is the issued DD rail that is longer.

I have that exact setup on my work rifle, aside from the switch being on the left rail pushed all the way forward.

Hey thanks for the input fellas.

For those who mentioned they have the dual or a single pressure switch on the LH or RH side, do you find that it creates inconsistency on how you would have to hold the rifle/manipulate the switch if you have to shoot off handed (left handed for me)?

Personally, I've always preferred being able to grip the rail and use the switch using the same hand placement/technique with either RH and LH side shooting.

Thoughts?

I hope you are taking this advice at face value so you can try out different techiques and figure out what works best for YOU. Shooter preference should always have the right of way. That being said, I am most comfortable with the Ranger grip (using the VFG like a rear hand stop resting the bottom of my palm near the top of it, rest of the palm supporting the rail, thumb clamped around the top). This allows me an easy transition between my duty rifle and my personal rifles that don't utilize a PEQ. If running a switch I prefer it in the top quarter (11-1) in order to allow use from both weak and strong sides by slipping my thumb over the top. On my personal rifles I mount a light in the 10 or 11 o clock position to facilitate typical shooting scenarios.

What are your thoughts Jeff?

Long story short, the M4 RAS is really too short to use effectively with a dual switch. I've used more or less this exact combination in the past, with an ATPIAL, Insight dual switch, and M3X on a 7" M4 RAS.

Similarly, unless you're a dwarf, frankly means that you're not using the "over the top" grip properly, even with an LMT SOPMOD and the stock fully extended, for most people, the gun simply isn't long enough for you to get full extension on your support arm while activating the buttons, meaning you're holding the weapon with your support arm bent which more or less defeats the purpose of the extended arm, "C-clamp" forward grip style.

Re: activating the devices the same way while firing left or right handed... I get it. I get why you think you want to do that, but you're overthinking it, and you're accepting configuring the weapon in a non-ideal way 100% of the time just in case you need to use it in a scenario that "best" case, will affect you less than 10% of the time. There are a lot of people with a lot of strong opinions on both sides--but a lot of very professional folks pretty much don't recommend going offhand ever, or at least not unless your strong side is literally non-functional. Then again, there are a lot of folks who love to do the "gun kata" alternate shoulders between every fucking hallway approach. Without getting too into the weeds of the argument between those two philosophies--unless it's convenient to do so, focus on setting up the gun the way you will fight 99% of the time. Be familiar with how to run the gun differently--but don't sacrifice what you will be doing most of the time in favor of something you might maybe at some point possibly need.

For your particular rifle/configuration? My advice:

If you can, look at something like the YHM or Ergo rail extensions if you want more rail space. The M4 RAS doesn't FF the barrel anyways, so it's not as much of an issue to use these barrel mount items if they'll make it easier to manipulate the rifle. That being said--be familiar with the weapon--a lot of these extensions attach at or near the FSB, which can get quite hot during extended firing, not to mention the possibility of simply putting your hand on the barrel depending.

If that's not possible or not something you want to do, I would dump the dual switch, and use a single switch for the light on your support side on the upper "quarter," i.e., if you're a lefty, on the right side at the 1 o'clock, while the light is mounted on the strong side rail (9 o'clock). Go thumb over top and use the onboard "FIRE" button for your ATPIAL, and move the thumb into the upper corner above the rail to use the light. You can do this while bracing your support hand against the VFG (like a handstop), and in the case of switch failure, or going "offhand," you still have the option of going "broomstick" on the VFG, and using your thumb to activate the light's push button.

~Augee

Basically what Augee just said.  I'm not big on setting up shit so that it works the exact same way ambidextrously, because I don't think it's necessary (unless of course you can do so without trading off strong side shooting comfort/usability).  I know I absolutely hate 12 o'clock mounted switches unless it's on a long handguard.

My view-  Background: issued a similar rifle, have been for the last decade+...  

Off hand shooting is retarded (with the exception of wounded/down drills).  Flat out.  It looks cool in demonstrations and you can shape tactics to make it look valid...but it sucks in real life.

First, nobody shoots well with their weak hand/side in real life.  

Second, your armor is likely not set up to support it if you are carrying a full mission vest.  

Last, your brain gets stupid under stress and the off hand shit goes sideways.  BTDT...it just isn't great.



The best cover is accurate/rapid fire on target.  That happens from your strong side.  If you have to give up a little bit of cover to make this possible, so be it.  It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.  On paper and on the clock, I have a market performance difference between strong/weak side.  I prefer to stick with strong side.  I've never seen anyone that can shoot as fast/accurate in full kit on the weak side.  

Switching sides looks cool...some cool guys teach it...some other cool guys say it sucks...for me, it sucks.  My rifle is set up for a R handed shooter.  That's how I shoot it.

YMMV.

Very thoughtful and well written post!

Consider this post another bit of support for what augee already said. For my tastes, there's abbot much going on between the equipment you have and the dual switch, I would go with a single switch for the light and operate the PEQ with the button on top, but that's personal preference, do what you prefer.

Fed what do you see about the armor setup that would restrict shouldering a rifle on your left shoulder? Does your issued setup have some comm. gear or pouches installed in that area perhaps? I don't have any experience with armor yet.

Good input fellas thanks for the replies. Anybody have a good supporting pictures for illustration of their setups/concepts?

I'm about 6'2"ish myself with quite long arms, regardless of where a grip is setup on a 7" rail, I will never be able to get a full arm extension like I prefer. My own AR (not the mil issued one) I have the Magpul rifle length hand guards on it, love em!

I don't like holding the handguard. I grip the front of the magwell. It's how I was taught back in the day, and it still works today. I never had any of the extras when I was active duty or ARNG, also every NVD I've ever used had its own IR illuminator. I don't even think that the PEQ2 existed when I was in.

^ Magwell grip is the worst possible option I feel. I don't think it works very well at all, that grip was used for pistol caliber SMG's, I don't think it relates to rifles at all personally.

For your support side if you had gear that had to be there you can always tuck the heel of your stock behind your plate. Although not the most comfortable it provides a solid fonudation and as others have posted more than 90% of shooting will be done on your weapons side.  


While true the "C" clamp grip allows you to drive the gun much faster, depending on how heavy your rig is will dictate how long you can hold your rifle up right. While shooting, transiting from target to target it very fast, but try to hold a light on a threat for any few minutes your arms will fatigue quickly which is where a magwell grip will help mitigate the weight. I've always preached full extension when shooting a pistol and never gave much thought about people with injuries or middle age folks that will have a diminished amount of grip strength that comes with age. With their arms straight out it really hindered their ability to keep control of their pistols recoil. I found if you let them bend their arms slightly to the point where they could apply the highest amount of clamping force with their support hand on their pistol it greatly improved their ability for the sights to return to the original POA and rapidly/accurately get off multiple shots almost as fast as someone shooting at full extension.

Personal view-  I am a minimalist when it comes to gear.  Unless I need it RFN, it can stay in a truck or a bag.  My vest has ammo, commo, med, and a few small items like a cut down VS 17, GPS, markers, paper, map, protractor, headlamp, and batteries.  

I keep my right side clear above my pistol and my right shoulder clear including the path the stock has to track for me to get it in place.  That's a lot of clear space...  Add in wire routing for radios and antennas (often 2 radios), and you run out of space quickly.

Often, my left side has the antenna running up it for my radio (whip).  My big radio goes on the left side, front @ 7:30 position, So, that shoulder is taken up.  

I despise having buckles, straps, and similar under my stock when shooting.  It sucks.  It's part of why I don't like carrying a day pack.  Everything I add to my shoulder increases thickness and layers...which degrades my ability to shoot.  Sometimes I have to...but I don't like it.

I tried this setup last knight Augee, thank you for the input. I actually liked it a lot and will probably end up keeping it this way. I took the dual switch off, moved my VFG further forward, and installed the white light's pressure switch at the 11 o'clock spot. This allows for the support hand's thumb activation of the pressure pad, and if I need to shoot lefty, I can use my right hand's thumb to activate the push button on the back of the M3X light.

I also tried shouldering the rifle with the stock fully extended, combining that with the VFG further forward on the rail, provides a more comfortable and longer setup. Overall very good input, thanks fellas. I'll post up some pics later.

I think I will end up keeping your setup idea Hobo, tried it out last night, good stuff so far!

Came out well! Moving the grip forward more and the stock all the way back really made a difference in comfort, thanks again for the input fellas.

Put a few hundred rounds down range yesterday with the new setup, felt great. Very comfortable, no arm fatigue.

guess how I know you have not been paying attention since 02

Add a M203 that is pretty close to the M4 I carried when invading Iraq.

What year was that SD307? How did that M3X light hold up? Seems like a solid design, LOOKS chincey though. The thing is so long.

How streamlined do you want the rifle?

the easiest way I have found is the tape switch to the IR on a VFG, with the white light thumb activated on the left as far forward as possible.

this works because the IR id for NODS which are most likely  helmet mounted. which means no traditional cheeck weld. so holding the VFG is a great alternative.

it allows you to keep your heard up and remail alert.

Single tape switch for the laser at 10:00 (the 9:00 rail cover panel will overlap the edge of the switch and keep it in place. Use Velcro underneath, nonetheless). Surefire (M3 in your example) at 3:00-5:00, depending on mounts available. Your thumb activates either, based on your needs at the moment. That's how I rolled when I was stuck with a short rail M4. I'd actually encourage you to to try activating your PEQ directly via the button and eliminating one switch altogether.

This is exactly what I did. I got rid of the double switch, use one pressure pad for the white light at the 11 o'clock, with the white light all the way forward at the 3 o'clock. Left thumb can activate pad or push button and right thumb can activate push button on the M3X. Have been using the PEQ's push button for activation of that. Very good setup.