Hey everyone,

So quick question(s)... I have my AR set up for multiple situations.  I have a large optic for distance shooting (which is my favorite thing to do since getting the gun).  However, on a day-to-day basis, I have the optic in the gun case, the iron sights on the gun, along with my white light flashlight, as my primary home-defense weapon.  I recently ordered a laser for use along with the irons/flashlight for home defense.  The irons are zeroed 50 yards.  For ease of having the sights set up the same, I want to set the laser to match the irons.  I've read that I need to stabilize the gun, and adjust the laser to match the location of the irons at a fixed position of my choosing.  My question is this... Since the irons are set for 50 yards, do I have to be pointing at an object 50 yards away in order to set the laser to match the irons, or will they match even if I pick a spot within my house (say 15 yards) just because the irons are already at 50?  Does this make sense?  Can someone please help me figure this out?  Maybe I'm just a moron, lol.


Thanks,

Docsdeer1

I'm trying my hardest to think of a situation where you'd need a laser, aside from IR with NVD's, and coming up short.


edit: Sell the laser and attend a low light course. The Carolina area has some of the best training in the US.

So, my thought was that if I ever needed to use the gun in a home defense, dark situation, having the light is priority #1, however in the event of having my adrenaline pumping, it's probably easier to acquire a target with the laser than lining up the irons... I don't know. Like I said, I'm new to this, it's an inexpensive item, and I just want to know how to sight it in.

Haters gonna hate. Where is your laser mounted? If the laser is under the handguard and your irons are set at 50/200 I would suggest you find a 200 yard mark you can see at night and set your laser to lollypop on top of the post at 200. This will keep you from putting to sharp an upward angle on the laser. If your laser is on top of the handguard just line it up at 50 yards. If it is on the side of the handguard line it up about 100 yards. Ymmv.

No, it's not "haters gonna hate."

Visible lasers are simply  not very useful outside a few narrow circumstances.  

They are a lot slower to pick up on than an RDS (I realize OP is using irons), especially in environments with ambient lighting. They become harder to pick up the brighter the ambient lighting is.  They may wash out completely when used in conjunction with weaponlights/flashlights or in daylight environments.

OP also spoke about the laser he chose as being an "inexpensive item." So you also need to factor in that he probably purchased something that isn't of decent quality to begin with.  Recoil may cause it to lose zero or simply kill it all together.

IMO, OP, you'd be much better served by returning whatever laser you bought and purchasing a quality RDS if you ever plan to push this rifle into a serious use/defensive role.

As far as "zeroing" your laser, unless it is mounted above the barrel exactly where your irons are it is impossible to have the same tradgectory as your irons. If it is under the barrel as the target gets closer your point of impact would get higher at long range it'd get lower. If it is mounted on the side you're going to have your shots getting further and further to the side.

I also don't have a use for a laser. I have messed around with them and it is far more difficult to find a red spec on a target than to just instinctively point and shoot. I don't think anyone ever remembers seeing their sights after a shooting.
Some will say there is the intimidation factor to the bad guys but I doubt they'd notice the laser over the 1200 lumen light in the face.

Points taken, and I appreciate everyone's information.  I intend to use it (maybe) in a home defense situation, so I'm talking situations within 15-20 feet.

Lasers are slow, get a good rds

Just because you're intending to use it at short ranges doesn't make it a good idea.  Can I ask, what laser did you purchase?

It's just one that I got off of Amazon for like $30 that had over (250) 4 out of 5 star reviews… can I ask… why is everyone so against them?  All I wanted to know was the easiest way to sight it in, and I get bombarded with everyone telling me that I don't need to use it.  I'm still going to have the BUIS's on there… why all the hate on having a laser?  Why would not be "a good idea?"

 

Listen to rjeff.

They are slow to get on target and even worse for follow up shots IMO.

Just because it's easy to train that little dot on something a couple of feet away from you doesn't mean it is at distance while hanging off your gun.

This.  I've got a super bright Beamshot green laser that sits in the safe because it's pretty useless.  At house distances, you might be dead if you're tinkering with gadgets instead of pulling the trigger.

Lasers look cool in the movies, but they are vastly over-rated in actual use.

The exception is, as mentioned, IR lasers with NV.

Understood… Ok, I appreciate the tips, guys.  Thanks!
 

Docsdeer1

If you don't want to read all of the below, just let me state...DO NOT USE CHINESE GREEN LASERS UNLESS YOU VERIFY THEY HAVE AN I.R. FILTER.

OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT WIND UP BLIND!!!!

To my knowledge ALL Chinese lasers are DPSS units, because they can without the proper filter release tremendous amounts of I.R. Light (which your eye fails to see) you can quickly go blind!

Now a little history, back in the 1980's the first lasers were marketed for Firearms. They were optical lasers and were VERY heavy, bulky, and expensive. ($4,000 +)

Then in the 1990's a new innovation showed up, Diode based lasers, MUCH cheaper, lighter, and smaller. They were only available in 650 nm output which was a dark red beam. Then towards the late 90's a 635 nm Diode was available. 635 nm produced an Orange-Red beam which the human eye perceived to be 10 times brighter at the same power level.

2000 brought a MAJOR breakthrough, it was discovered if you used a crystal in conjunction with an I.R. Diode you could achieve 535 nm (Bright Green). The DPSS (Diode Pumped Solid State) laser was invented. BUT, several issues quickly came to light.

Temperature affected the precision alignment of the crystal so that as the ambient temperature approached 40 degrees +/- the beam dimmed considerably as the unit was mainly now throwing I.R. instead of 535 nm Green.

In addition it was soon discovered that many (most) Chinese manufacturers were failing to install the FDA required I.R. Filters. Being that the conversion of I.R. to 535 nm Green is grossly inefficient these unit are sometimes outputting 10 TIMES AS MUCH I.R. AS VISIBLE GREEN !

Then in 2012 Osram announced they had developed a Native (Direct) Green laser Diode, this should have resulted in the DEATH of the DPSS laser. BUT it didn't, China continues to produce them in huge quantities.

Now, for my "Buy USA" ad.

To my knowledge ALL U.S. Green laser manufacturers that use DPSS technology also install an effective I.R. Filter. As a matter of fact most U.S. Manufacturers are changing their units to Osram Native Green Diodes which ONLY output 520-535 nm Green! NO I.R.

Do not use Chinese green lasers UNLESS you add a QUALITY I.R. Filter. WHY?

This is a report on testing of Chinese green lasers...

Reflections on IR are virtually not detectable by the human eye...

Class IIIb: Lasers in this class may cause damage if the beam enters the eye directly. This generally applies to lasers powered from 5-500 mW. Lasers in this category can cause permanent eye damage with exposures of 1/100th of a second or less depending on the strength of the laser. A diffuse reflection is generally not hazardous but specular reflections can be just as dangerous as direct exposures. Protective eyewear is recommended when direct beam viewing of Class IIIb lasers may occur.

And when they say "direct beam viewing" they are referring to observing the beam, not looking directly into the laser.

Near-infrared laser beams are much more hazardous than visible light with the same power level, because their radiation is focused to the retina just in the same way as visible light, whereas the blinking reflex of the human eye (normally closing the eye's lid quickly when the intensity is too high) is not active. Also, no warning is possible e.g. through weak stray light: nothing can be seen when a dangerous beam propagates in an unexpected direction.

In December 2009, we purchased three inexpensive, green laser pointers (GLPs) for $15 each. Advertised to produce ‘10mW’ of green light, the common packaging of the devices suggests that they were produced by the same manufacturer, although they carried no traceable trademarks. One of the pointers produced much weaker green light than the other two. We performed quantitative measurements, showing that the weak unit emitted approximately 10 times more invisible IR light than the visible green. Green light activates the eye's blink reflex, which provides a protective mechanism. However, we are completely vulnerable to IR radiation, since exposure to it may only be noticed after significant retinal damage has occurred. After further investigation, we found that this problem is common in low-cost GLPs, although its seriousness varies widely.

The decision is yours the same as whether you want to risk learning to walk by the feel of a white cane.

This report scared the crap out of me on cheap unmodified Chinese lasers.

Look, this is DANGEROUS!

And I've "done" dangerous for years...

I've went into barricaded hostage situations involving an armed felon
I have a Commercial Display Fireworks license and have shot up to 16" shells that weighed 80 pounds
I have been in pursuits on Interstates in excess of 140 miles per hour

BUT I draw the line on Chinese DPSS lasers.

IF you want a SAFE green laser, make sure it's an Osram Native green diode, not a DPSS diode.

Very informative post.

Just for your info my friend I have a green laser on my 12g Remington marine shotgun works great 7-10 yard easy hip shooting, 100 rounds and it holds zero. It is a $100 laser

Haters gonna hate, I love my laser

Anybody who plans to "hip shoot" a shotgun in the context of "home defense" outside of an emergency situation really shouldn't be taken seriously.

Quality gear and sound tactics that are proven to work should be employed if you're going to entrust your life to a firearm (or really any other piece of equipment for that matter).

I blame Hollywood and video games...

Might I suggest your next purchase be a trained dog and a white cane.

Any home defense is a emergency

I have one on a ar that I coyote hunt with. I usually have it set on flood because it really reaches out and I haven't seen it scare them and running.  But I have had it on small dot and shot a couple jackrabbits that I jumped up walking around.  One was 20 yrds out to my left and he bolted straght out and turned left into a clearing at about 40yds and still running wide open and thats when I put the green dot on him and shot.  I caught him broadside in the air as I saw a some gut and fur at impact and he was blown from impact off his course 20 feet inline with me and a little to the left in the direction he was heading.  It was a very fast shot and from the Hip.   I sighted mine in by using 50 yd zero from scope on a target at 50yds. Its good for what I use it for , but I guess ill have to find 30 jackrabbits at once and see if I can get all them before they can get me.   Oh I forget to say thanks for the post on the dangers of laser light. I am going to look into wtf I have here, The eyes trump fun. Seriously thank you.    Like to also say Horses see the green laser.  Often I detach and use it handheld out the window to check out noises outside, well one time i spooked the horses and one of the bolted right through a fence. When your 1800 pounds and scared of the bad green light scre the fence.

Thank you everyone… I'll definitely read the manual to see what I have before putting the batteries in it.  Thanks!!

How do you use a laser "to check out noises outside"??? I'd be useing a LIGHT!

I'm guessing Laser Genetics?
They have a line of variable focus green lasers that can be used as a spotlights.

I do not mean to hijack but would anyone find this useful https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Advanced_Series_Red_Dot_with_Integrat_p/pacrsl.htm

It's a rds with green laser and there is a video seems like it has very fast target acquisition. Any pros on a laser? How about cons.

Primary Arms makes some great bang-for-the-buck optic, but that one's not really on the top of my list.
It's 14oz and the laser will be useless in daylight, and in low light you would be better served with a light.

I would go with one of their micro dot options at 1/3rd the weight, maybe a Holosun, and skip the laser.

I have a similar light by VarmintLight with a red, white and green lens, but you can't narrow it down to a dot that I know of.

on flood its very bright and brighter than my flashlight at times due to 3 dying 123 batteries.            And living in a rural area with coyotes running through my yard at times its an experiment to spot them and see how their affected by the green.  Seems to work ok for ME.                           Just another tool With my own imagined uses.

I posted some of the cons of visible lasers near the top of page 1.

I just shined the laser outside,  Its a little hazy and overcast due to to fire smoke but at 50 yds its well visible, 30 -40 yds would be easy to be on target. Its not the name brand laser, I found out about this one from a coyote hunting site for 45.00 .  I put it in a warne quick detach scope ring and have used it for about 3 yrs now. Worth it to me for what i'm doing. I have a good light on my ar and can put this on easy enough if I choose to.  At about 4inches long and pretty light I dont mind leaving it there.         I've read that coyotes arent as affected by the green light,  and nite hunting is legal here so I thought about giving it a go.  I would have zero problems zeroing it in at 50yds on a paper plate.

How are you zeroing it?  Does the unit have built in windage and elevation adjustments?

Imagine the disadvantage you would face if while clearing your home and finding an intruder you r laser suddenly reflects off of something in the room and blasts you right in the eye or eyes.  It can and does happen and with a green laser that produces Infrared wavelengths in abundance that can, as has been stated, permanently damage your vision and it will fucking hurt as well, instantly stinging burning and aching as though you were hit in the eye with something hot heavy and gritty.

How I came to realize all this is posted in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1491804_19_year_old_kid_makes_3w_light_saber.html&page=3&anc=bottom#bottom

The bottom line is that you run the risk of inadvertently becoming unable to adequately deal with the intruder. That is the sole reason necessary in my estimation, for not having a laser as part of your home defense plan.

That would definitely big a reason not to have one. Thanks

Man, there's always something to get you down.....  LOL.  I had inherited a laser from my step Dad and I was kind of stoked about it.  Now I'm worried about my eyesight.  LOL.  I was thinking it would work well in low light situations, but not completely dark.

Good discussions so far.  My first hand experience on the civilian side is folks at low light classes using their new "laser sights" and really struggling.  The problem that I saw is that they spend so much time trying to get the laser to stop moving and be right on the exact spot on the target that they slow WAY down vs. using a good light and either an RDS or tritium insert sights.


The positives I've seen with visible lasers is that it does help in a teaching environment just how much the barrel of the gun actually moves.   The movies make it look really nice and cute to have a perfectly focused laser fixed on the target, which in reality is tough to do without a really good rest.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2012/4/10/zero-distance-for-a-home-defense-ar-15/

I thought this a great article for self defense inside the home.  Since I have a red laser build into the scope. Its 2.5 X 10 X40 with red/green reticle.

The one I have is a 5mw class III.  Is that any different than class IIIB?   And what about all these crimson trace handgun lasers.  Are they dangerous too?

To my knowledge, ALL U.S. Lasers are safe from I.R.

The DPSS Green lasers are the only lasers that emit I.R.

All U.S. Lasers have a correct I.R. Filter

How do I know if my lasermax is a "U.S." laser.  So much electronic stuff is made overseas.  I guess I could ask them that.  What do I need to ask them specifically about the filter?

Considering they are a U.S. Based company and the FDA could easily shut them down, I don't think I'd be concerned.

That's how Wicked Lasers continues to operate, NO U.S. offices.

OK, now I'm back to being excited.  I'm not really sure if I will like it once I try to use it though either.  I remember trying a .22 pistol with a laser and not liking it at all.  But I think it may be different on a carbine.  I think it's just a good tool for focusing on the target and helping indexing if point shooting up close in low ish light.  Of course not dark.  Dusk...  indoors.  But I could be all wet.

What surprised me is I read an article by Pat Rogers supporting using a laser on your carbine as a backup for the Red Dot sight.

If Pat thinks they are GTG, that's good enough for me

Well it's not really a whole lot different, is it?  I mean you're focusing on the target and there's a red dot on top of it.  I think a laser will be more affected and move more with recoil though.  And us old guys with bad eyes sometimes might benefit from something that doesn't make you look at three things.  (target, front sight, rear sight)

Do you have any links to pro laser articles by Rogers or anybody else in the know?

I think he makes some valid points in here:

I have the Sub Zero ND3, I like it, use it as a designator to light up the scope at 50-100 yrds, almost like using night vision, I have a coyote problem and will use it to scan the yard while the dogs are out at 4AM.

Good video nice hip shooting to

I don't know what it is about laser threads that just bring the weirdness out of the woodwork...

Look, I am not a VIS laser "hater," and I have, and like having visible lasers on my weapons--but, I am firmly in the camp that says for the most part - not worth what it costs for most people to buy a quality VIS laser - and the cheap ones are... well, cheap.  

Here's the thing - there are some applications in which a visible laser is a great asset, but you want to know what the #1 use for a visible laser on a carbine is?  EOF - Escalation of Force.  

When I say this, I'm not saying "because a red dot is a universal language," it is... but it's not.  I'd like to think that the fellow from "Green Eyes Tactical," Kyle Lamb, et al know what I'm talking about, though I could just be being conceited... but we're not talking about some home invader as if they're going to freeze in their tracks when you shine a laser at them - it's shining a laser in the windshield of a car to get the attention of an inattentive driver, or letting someone you encounter along the way - "hey, don't do anything stupid."  It's "hey, Mr. IED emplacer - I see you, let's come quietly and not make a fuss."  It's not "oh, I see a red dot across a living room, so I'm going to shit my pants as if someone racked a twelve gauge."  

Yes, there are some applications for visible lasers.  Maybe you're #2 guy in a stack, and above all - what you need to do, is get in that door, and cover #1, and you're all trying to squeeze through a door that wasn't designed for Americans in body armor.  Maybe you're "full kinetic" in a mixed light environment, and you don't want to flip your NODs up, but you might need to look under them as you go room to room.  And yeah, sure, maybe you're hauling a terrorist's hard drive or evacuating a casualty and suddenly you see something that needs some more shooting.  Point is, visible lasers are not useless.  

So why would I discourage more people from getting them?  First of all - the range of scenarios is pretty limited, not that the above are all the possible ones, but for the most part - if they're something you're concerned about, chances are, you're not on ARFCOM asking which $30 eBay laser is the best one to get.  Sorry, truth.  Frankly, chances are, you probably either already have, have access to, or are issued a modern-generation IR LAM, which comes equipped with a visible laser standard; or at very least, are willing to throw down the cash for an OTAL.  

I really wish I could just pull out the citation for this, because otherwise, I'm just some dude on the internet who said so, so with that caveat -

There has been at least one study done which has pitted visible lasers against RDS.  The conclusion was that an actual sight is faster and more accurate engaging targets than a visible laser with proper training.  My anecdotal experience gives me no reason to doubt this conclusion.  

Here's the biggest reason I caution most, again, sorry to say, who "have to ask" against using visible lasers - in the end, the most likely scenario is that they will build and amplify bad habits and bad technique, and at worst, cause the user to become over-dependent on what is really an unreliable system, not only are cheap lasers generally unreliable, but there is always the issue of washout, lighting conditions, or even if the "target" is wearing the same color clothing as the laser - give it a try if you don't believe me, but it's still much easier to see a red dot in an optic against a red shirt than to find a red laser.  Sure... green is more visible... but green is also one of the highly likely colors for an enemy (particularly a military enemy) to be wearing, too.  The right combination of distance and lighting, and suddenly that super obvious green dot... is not.  

Which leads to another bad habit/technique - "chasing the laser."  It almost inevitably happens unless you've trained a whole lot with using lasers.  Let me re-state that point - for users with NV equipment, already accustomed to shooting with IR lasers while wearing NVDs - they have probably engaged in a goodly amount of training in how to effective use a laser - because until something drastic changes with the way modern NV equipment is configured - lasers are the most effective and fastest way to engage while maintaining situational awareness in a kinetic situation.  

For those not already using NV and IR lasers - you need to "train away" the tendency to "chase the laser" and learn a new set of reflexes to effectively utilize the laser.  This is fine if you have an unlimited supply of ammunition to train with - but again, if you did, chances are, you would not be asking about eBay lasers.  What this means in practice is that you are taking away training time and ammunition that would, IMHO, be much better used training more with your primary optic, possibly in low-light with a visible light - trying to develop a set of reflexes for what is, as I've already stated - a fundamentally unreliable engagement method limited to both a narrow band of potential applications and "ideal" outside conditions/circumstances.  

And therein lies the crux of my seemingly hypocritical argument against most people seeking out visible lasers for their carbines, despite the fact that I have and use them - for most people, they're simply not worth the time, money, and effort.  In fact, my use of visible lasers is an artifact of before good, civilian legal LAMs with visible lasers were available, and before I had personally owned NV equipment and places to use it, to train certain skills during the day on the range - NOT for "self defense" purposes.  

And finally, to address the inevitable question of handgun lasers, I have never particularly been a huge fan of handgun lasers for many of the reasons I've already outlined, however, I have/had acknowledged their utility because handgun lasers are popular specifically for the reason that carbine lasers are not - because until fairly recently, there were very few convenient options for mounting optics to pistols, and even now, it can be extremely expensive, unwieldy to carry, and can potentially cause a host of other problems with regards to weight/battering of slide mounted optics, etc.  As slow as "chasing the laser" may be, it could, for some, be faster and easier than acquiring and aligning open sights, particularly the smaller ones on many popular carry guns.  "So why, then, Augee, if I've already developed the skills to use a laser on a handgun, shouldn't I use one on my carbine, too?"  For exactly the reason you're using a carbine instead of a handgun in the first place - because you can be faster, more accurate, more reliable, and more effective with a carbine equipped with a good RDS.  

::shrug::

But that's all, like, my opinion man.  

~Augee