So let me start off by saying that I am not trying to spark a debate, I am merely trying to figure out why so many people are so against lasers mounted on an AR-15 platform.

For example. I am having a little bit for trouble picking out what optics to put on my newly purchased KAC. Acog, holo, accupoint, combos, etc. When one idea had crossed my mind. With my primary concern of using an ACOG being quick and close range target aquisition, it seems that by having a laser sighted to 25 yards would solve this problem. I'm sure I have just revealed exactly how new I am by that comment, but I am curious as to why many of you feel that this would not be a viable option. Heck, even with an EOtech holo, it would seem to me that THE fastest way to get on target would be through the use of a laser.

Let me say again, that I'm just looking for constructive feedback to get a better understanding of all of this - not trying to pretend in anyway that I know what i'm talking about in this arena. So please - dont hold back. I have thick skin and can't wait to hear from some of the more experience members.

Thanks all,

-Dave

I dislike lasers on hand guns because it shows me just how bad a shake. I have nothing against them on long guns.

To me and its been my experience is from pistols to rifles with lasers the user gets too focused using it and when it fails gets flustered or ultimately forgets to use back ups. That's why I hate how many firearms don't have iron sights. forgetting fundamentals and relaying on technology is always foolish. Just like using straight GPS and not bringing a map and compass when you go to the woods

Also it is added weight which can fail and fairly expensive

^this^

Young bucks tend to use solely the laser for aiming. They forget all about the core fundamentals.

There are no technological shortcuts to the skill of shooting accurately when someone is trying to shoot back.

If it were the case... all the specops guys would simply clamp on a laser and not waste time on the flat range!


For many... the red or green dot is just a visual wavelength of light equivalent to racking a 12 gauge shotgun.

There are no short cuts!

+1
 

Your front sight (or red dot) is always in the same place, and consistency is key in developing accuracy and speed. That good front sight focus.

A laser, you have to chase. Your gun comes up and unlike the trusty front sight post, it's in a different spot every time. So you need to get the gun up, find the beam, and chase the dot until it's on target.

Also any time your target is framed with sky, if you are off target, no dot!

I find it more of people add crap chinese lasers. NCstar crap mounted on the scope like this. Get a good one and I think your GTG

They have some purpose.  Looking to get an ir to work with my nv currently.

I disagree. You may not always be able to get a sight picture behind your RDS. Having a laser might not be the best primary, but in a close-in, super-fast shootout, it has its place.

DAMN you could mount like 6 lasers on top of each other with that setup and make your gun 6 times as accurate!





 

+1
+2
I do see the benefit of IR lasers w/ NV. Visible lasers have a very limited use. Like if you had to shoot over or under cover or an obstacle where you could see the target but not your sights or optic. Other than that they are at best a gimmick. Although I guess YMMV...

The biggest thing is while you would think "put a dot on target, pull trigger" is faster, it isn't. You wind up chasing the dot around, accomplishing nothing except presenting yourself as a target for longer. Add in that there are very few visible lasers worth a damn, and almost none actually useable during daylight, you wind up with the distaste you see.
Issues with not being able to see your sights can almost always be corrected with proper training.

ETA: Does not apply to IR lasers, they're an entirely different ballgame.

I don't feel the hate for lasers you describe.  The truth is for most circumstances, red dots and iron sights are much faster and more accurate than visible lasers.  Go do some side by side and prove it to yourself with drills.  Make sure you do inside, outside, low light, and daylight so you get a realistic comparision.    Most of the time the guy using the dot/sights will be done shooting and back on safe/scanning before the vis laser guy gets his dot oriented on the target.  You will see that visible lasers are also very vulnerable to being unusable in brighter lighting conditions.  That said, there are some occasions where the vis laser can be helpful.  It is a tool to have in the toolbox depending on your mission but not a good general purpose one.

For NVG and IR lasers it is a totally different story because of the difficulty in establishing a proper cheek weld wearing head mounted goggles and weapon mounting a PVS to enable use of an NVG compatible red dot is non-optimal for many reasons - not the least of which is safety.

I like using a laser on pistols because it shows bad habits like pulling the shot, but I wouldn't use it for "real use". With NVG you pretty much have to use a laser for aiming quickly.

Man ain't that the truth.  

For HD, I feel nothing beats an Aimpoint RDS, which I also feel is the best single all-around optic.

Many years ago I was laying on the ground bleeding and could only use my left arm. I managed to  throw my rifle on top of a wall one handed with the IR laser on and pull the trigger when another guy told me to. Today I'm still alive and I'm a fan of lasers, also a bunch of dots on somebody really calms them down faster than anything I've ever seen in my life

Along the lines of what Snaps said.  I do not have a laser mounted on any of my weapons yet.  I was a hater until I took a few rifle and pistol classes.  This is mostly geared toward Mil and LEO but could serve for civilians as well. Through the classes I've taken we have had to shoot in some not so comfortable positions, say behind a car tire and shooting under the car.  When your rifle is turned sideways you have to adjust where you aim.  It usually equates out to either the left or right shoulder,depending on distance and what position your weapon is in, to hit center mass.  With a laser this sort of shooting would be easier to get rounds on the bad guy faster IMO.  I didn't really believe it until I "put the data to the test"   .  I am currently looking at laser devices for my duty rifle. Just my two pennies.

+1 on using a visible laser as a means of controlling the bad guy.




 

I have one on my truck "bug out/bug in" frankengun.  I do not consider it a primary sight but more of a possible intimidation factor should certain situations arise.  I rely on standard A2 iron sights on this rifle otherwise.

I live in an area of Houston one would consider "in transition".  A riot could possibly break out at the drop of a Rodney King.  Certain segments of society recently found they can stop traffic and terrify the local populace while the LEOs stand and watch.  This will only escalate in the future IMHO.

As the poster above who has obviously been in the poo put it:

"also a bunch of dots on somebody really calms them down".  

I would think a bright green dot on your center of mass would give anybody second thoughts.

 




 

I've never used one, so I can't attest to the useability, but I have seen filters designed to change the shape of the beam, making your own beam easier to identify.

I do agree to a point, I think the lasers-as-intimidation measures are kind of overblown, you rely on someone seeing the laser to actually "scare" them. That being said, if they do notice it, action movies have trained people to shit in their pants when they see a laser.
I suppose that could be a benefit of a dual beam laser, I certainly wouldn't buy a vis-only laser to test it.

I have nothing against lasers.  I use mine like a training tool:  aim fast, press laser to see where shot was going.  
I used to run just a T-1 and no BUIS, so the laser was a backup, but together I felt they were fine.  I like shooting BUIS, but after four years I realized I had t used them but once or twice.  I'm comfortable with them out to 150-200Y, but think inside 25Y the green OTAL-A would be faster for me at night.  Need to time it,

Now I only use it for low-light no light shooting, since it's easier to see through smoke than a front site it seems.

Lasers have some legitimate uses but primary sight isn't one of them.

Laser have their uses. Mostly when you have to be creative with your aiming when circumstances limit traditional target acquisition.

People who hate lasers do not know how to use them. As far as I know, every US Army Special Forces soldier has a day light and an IR laser as part of his kit.

Yeah.... they're issued a lot of pointless crap they don't use....

I like Crimson Trace on a handgun.

I actully like them too, but only for fun range guns, and not a serious personal defense gun.

 

The main reason for the "hate" of visible lasers on carbines/long guns is the fact that most beginner and inexperienced shooters have a heavy tendency towards overreliance on them.  Visible lasers can be useful on a rifle, depending on the purpose, but they have a fairly limited range of utility.  

As others have noted, there have been more than a couple formal and informal tests have been conducted that have shown that visible lasers, even in "ideal" conditions are slower than RDS - this is largely due to the need to "search" for the laser and once again, a tendency by inexperienced shooters to try to "overcompensate" for the visible wobble - by "thinking" that the laser represents a pinpoint aiming point, most shooters will attempt to over-stabilize in the moment, trying to get the laser to sit still.

This fact combines with the fact that even for a powerful green laser - the "ideal" conditions to use the laser are relatively rare and very narrow - many believe that a laser would be effective at night - thinking that the laser will shine - however, once you activate your white light for target ID, you will often get a momentary "wash-out" where you need to reacquire your dot, further adding time, and becoming even more difficult when using a "strobing" method of light activation.

The worst thing you can do is to rely on a sighting method like a visible laser that works effectively only in a narrow range of scenarios, only to find a scenario in which it puts you at a distinct disadvantage.  

With that being said - a visible laser can still be useful and used effectively on a long gun -

As others have mentioned, it does present a viable aiming solution that would otherwise be unavailable when in awkward or unconventional shooting positions.  In some scenarios, it can also be effective in much the same way as an IR laser, allowing the user to adopt a more "heads up" posture to provide more situational awareness and peripheral vision - say a short hallway with doors.  

Moreover, on IR/VIS combination units such as the AN/PEQ-15, LA-5/PEQ, or LDI CQBL, the visible laser provides a means for easy zeroing and zero verification if the two are "slaved" together.  

Finally, in some situations, the visible laser can be used as a non-lethal, and potentially silent compliance or standoff tool - while a potential target cannot necessarily see the dot on their chest - with most visible lasers powerful enough from a shooter's perspective to be seen on the target will also present as a bright red or green sparkling light - shining the laser in their face/eye will further make it obvious that the situation is not a simple matter of running across someone in the dark and/or who happens to have a weapon - but one that has acquired and prepared to engage a target.  

This, of course is a considerable double-edged sword - a sparkling laser signature will also highlight your position, making you a potential target as well if and when you could have remained more concealed - and the use of the visible laser as an EOF/compliance tool is heavily situation dependent - that is to say, you have to be substantially confident that the potential target is highly willing to be compliant, and just needs an additional "jolt" to remind them that they don't want to die right now.  Kyle Lamb wrote an article a while back that described the utility of lasers mentioning this a while back - it used to be available on the VTAC website, but has since been removed.  

FWIW - a visible laser component has long been a part of the SOPMOD package for SOF - initially as a separate component, with the use of the Insight CVL, the AN/PEQ-5.  It was only dropped as a component with the introduction of the LA-5/PEQ with an integrated and slaved VIS laser module.  

What it essentially gets down to is not that visible laser are not or cannot be useful - but that for your average civilian shooter operating in a self or home defense capacity, the uses are so narrow as to be a non-issue, and that most inexperienced shooters a) see visible lasers as something they're not, and b) are not only most likely not trained in how to use a laser effectively, but more importantly, when.

~Augee

I've been toying with the idea of building a short barrel AR Pistol with a visible green laser aiming solution for HD.  You get the short barrel compactness without doing NFA paperwork and a laser gives the option of shooting from positions where the rifle is not shouldered.  The way my home is laid out I can defend a particular hallway from an elevated position and if a BG sees a laser on the wall paired with verbal commands he may think twice about coming around the corner I am defending.  My plan revolves around getting to this type of position and getting 911 on speaker phone ASAP.

Once I get the pistol built I'll spend some time at the range seeing if I shoot it well enough to consider employing it.

Dialing even something as simple as 9-1-1 is going to be exceedingly more difficult with an AR pistol in a two handed grip compared to a rifle with a sling braced against your shoulder and held one handed unless you sleep with a phone clip and a bluetooth.  Consider the other actions you have to take as well - activating and possibly holding a light as well as the laser.  If you have the room, and intend to create that much standoff, there's basically no reason not to use a 16" or pinned 14.5" carbine if you cannot have an SBR in your location.  

If you can, and think you can afford it, consider a suppressed SBR - remember that the shorter the barrel gets, the louder and more severe the muzzle blast will be as well - you can try to mitigate this with a linear compensator, but a short barreled [rifle] will always be very loud inside of a structure - so will a suppressor - but it won't leave your ears ringing and have as much permanent hearing loss - even if auditory exclusion prevents you from feeling the effects in the immediate moment, the damage is still being done.    

I don't know your situation and/or house, but from what you described your plan does not seem like a good one, no offense meant - but my honest assessment and personal opinion.  

~Augee

I am so disgusted in myself for using my DBAL 2s that I removed both of them from my rifles and threw them in the trash

Which trash can is yours again??

The best argument that I have seen for a laser on a rifle/carbine is for fast close range shooting when mounted on the side of the barrel.
The argument was, since your scope is mounted quite a bit over the bore you need a secondary sighting system for close in, precision shots.
Sight in at 15-20 feet and you can do a fast, both eyes open shot over a barricade.

I think it was an old Aimpoint X400 review on youtube.

I have a friend who was in Afghanistan with a Swedish special-ops unit.  His setup of choice with their g36c was an elcan telescope, and a laser sight for close shots.  
He explained that if at all possible, headshots was the SOP for his unit, so high power scopes for most engagements, lasers for CQB center mass shots.  Take that for what its worth, but knowing him he is a hard mofo, and was wounded too.  I'm sure in his prime him and his unit could keep stride with any US high tier combat unit, so I take what he says seriously.

Primary arms does not agree with you.

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They are a little bit gimmicky.. but who cares.. most of us own 5 Ar15s anyway.
Looks pretty solid to me.

I used to hate them until I took an AMIS course from Shivworks and used an X400U with DG switch. That laser is honestly very useful.

Most people don't know enough about how to utilize them correctly. Good at telling depth, IFF, pointing out objectives to team members, IR NVG aiming, force deescalation, unconventional aiming, and all kinds of good stuff experts are still working out.

I have been in a situation in summertime before where I ran out of the air conditioned house in the evening hours into summertime heat after a rain and could see nothing through my Acog because of instant fog. Visible laser worked just fine though. The laser lens had a little condensation on it too, but the dot itself was still perfectly focused. Dont know the science behind it, but it worked.