Please explain how my experience with Kahles is of no value to a another considering a Kahles scope.

I had a Nightforce 5.5-22x scope that would not hold zero after the rifle it was mounted on was tipped over on its bipod. The rifle was resting on the ground, bipod legs extended 9 inches, and I bumped the rifle over it went. It was so minor that I couldn't believe that it was the cause of the scopes failure.

Nightforce fixed it, no drama, I think they had to remount the lenses.

So stuff happens.

Even using them on M2HBs, which sounds crazy until you try it.  Not the only ones using them for real either.

ETA:  I scrolled down and there are some pics.  Others are using them on Barretts as well.

I was very explicit in my post about how your efforts smack of major butt hurt. Lots of people offer advice in these threads, but you've turned every recent thread I've seen that mentions Kahles, not even the particular scope you had a problem with, into a crusade against Kahles.

You do not represent anywhere close to a statistically significant representation of Kahles product success or failure but your experiences MUST define that manufacturer for ever more in these threads or you haven't done your job.

Post your experience in every thread if you must, but then consider cooling your jets and not making the rest of every thread about your victimhood by Kahles. Sorry I don't mean to be a dick but enough already.

Bump. Dying for some insight into the Viper PST Gen II 1-6x.

It's at least about $400-500 cheaper than the Razor HD Gen II, if I recall correctly.

It's been 8 months since I had problems with the Kahles. I can recall posting about it in four threads since I don't think that's excessive at all.

These forums were created so that guys could contribute, and share information with each other in order to help each other out. That just what I was doing here. Since when is it unethical to post negative experiences with gear in threads anyway, we do it here all the time.

I'm wondering if you're going to be able to make your point without insults and if you think your demeanour helps your credibility.

Kahles has had more than one issue so no the company isn't flawless other than for my experience with them. I could probably find more but I only spent a few minutes looking.

kahles scope not waterproof

kahles scope not tracking

kahles tracking issues YouTube

kahles scope tracking issues YouTube

kahles scope canted reticle YouTube

I've said my piece in this thread. Maybe you could consider that you did the same after your first post, and consider your own demeanor as it is that which wrecks your credibility and makes you come off unreasonably emotional and anti-Kahles.

ETA: Oh and by the way, not one of the links you just posted has anything to do with the Kahles k16i i.e one of the scopes being discussed in this thread. Thank you for making my point for me.

I've focused my posts showing that both the Razor gen 2 and MK8 are more durable and IMO better scopes than the Kahles and I've presented data to back up the reasons why.

If you disagree with this then by all means I welcome you to present your own data and participate in the discussion,  otherwise loose the insults.

As previously stated.........

Leupolds mk6 like has had plenty of tracking and reticle cant issues, and so the mk8 is suspect, too. Because it's also a lpv from leupold. So same thing as k624 vs k16...still an "mk", right, right.

You know, I know GM had some issues with the ls7 motor in the z06 until around 2013, with them dropping valves, and a buddy of mine bought a 5.3L Tahoe,  and the 5.3L is an LS based engine, and so I'm worried about his Tahoe...

Do you see where I'm going with this? Now add to the fact that you had a 1 off issue. A 1 time deal. Why don't you call Jeff Huber and ask him how many k16i optics have broken? The number is zero. He has had to deal with 1 that had a spot of lube end up on an internal lens, and that's it as of about a yearish ago. It was a fluke and I've seen the same from other optics. Just look in the main tube from the objective side and you can see how it might occur.

i am interested in this topic.

I was looking at the leupold 1-6X24 with the CMR^2 reticle, but after seeing this, I may just get the vortex 2nd Gen

If half a pound in extra weight isn't a problem, I'd go Gen 2 razor. For me, it was, so I went mk6.

If you don't need exposed turrets, you like the reticle, you're good with the weight, and want a 1-6 then that's what I would do.

MK8 tracking test looks good to me

I'm sorry John I don't have confidence in Kahles I've seen too many issues and experienced one myself. I wish I had done more research prior to buying it I'd have gotten something else instead.

Triji 1-8

It is of no greater value, as a sample of one, than my 10 year old Kahles Helia CL 2-7x36 hunting scope that has been hunted hard in extreme terrain and brutal weather many, many times where out in the boonies a thousand miles or more away from home, trecking on foot and on horseback in the mountains,  failure is not an option.  It has performed superbly.

But, it is only a sample of one, so I offer it as no proof beyond saying that single samples are meaningless.

Sample of 1, sample of 200......

Anything mechanical can fail. 

Terms such as "Combat worthy" "SHTF" and other choice items riddled throughout this thread does not do a lot to actually address the OP's original post. In short, reading a lot of hype.  Frankly, 6x is overkill at 300. 

Reading his original post I have to advise the falling.....

• First and foremost....Train. Tech purchased does not equate to skillset. Never has, never will. I don't care if you spend 300 bucks to 4k. 
• Second, what is your future AR going to be chambered in? One can assume 223/5.56 but lets not assume.
• 300 yds? The OP would be far better served (not to mention save a crap ton of coin) with a lower power scope with a wider field of view. Should be able to use a RDS easily out to that distance. Need a little help? add a 3x magnifier behind it. 
• A trade off would be to purchase a 3 or 4x optic such as an ACOG and learn to use it.
• There are also a crap ton of "combat worthy" 1-4x variable scope. Again, saving a TON of coin
• I own all of two 1-6x. They are rarely used but when they are, its for distances requiring that 6x magnification first, and everything else? Second. 

Take it for what its worth. 
 

I know what you mean, this is why I can't trust nightforce or leupold. Just not as good as others.  Le sigh. Couldn't even submit properly functioning scopes to test.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/01/tactical-scopes-mechanical-performance-summary/

Could you compare the brightness of the reticle with say an Aimpoint T-1 or Eotech?

from what I can tell, we're talking about 8-9oz.  that's not insignificant, but it comes with a higher price tag.  right now, the only reason I'd pick the Razor is because of the brightness of the reticle in daylight.

You won't regret the durability, optical quality, mechanical tracking, or reticle brightness if you go with a Razor.  Yes, it's a bit heavy.  Built like a tank.  Weight on the receiver is much less critical than weight out on the barrel, in my experience.


If I were humping a rifle a long long way, I would probably opt for a TA33.

Definitely Aimpoint bright. It can be flared to fill the scope tube with red light like a red dot on higher settings. 

I was actually asking about his Leupold M6 that he said he went with over the razor. (You're talking about the Razor, right? I've heard from everyone that it is VERY bright)

Oh my mistake I didn't catch that. Yes I was talking about the Razor. 

I apologize for my part in taking this thread so far off the rails.  Was not my intention.

More detailed write-up, since work is slow today:


I bought my Razor when they were still strictly 'gamer' optics.  It was reassuring to see some HSLD types using them for actual military purposes.  I never had any reason to question the durability but as more data points are accrued, it seems that the Razors are very very tough optics.


I actually like some aspects of the T5Xi reticle better, the BDC subtension get finer as you work your way down, which makes sense to not cover your target at longer ranges.  The Razor is usable for ranging 8-10 inch plates, although in 3-gun nearly everything is lased before being shot if there is a question of distance.  The Steiner is usable for ranging standard IPSC sized targets, which are essentially the width of a typical adult male.


I really don't notice enough difference between the 5x of the Steiner and the 6x of the Razor for it to matter in real world shooting.  Resolution on targets at distance appears roughly equal to my eye.  No idea what real optical testing equipment would say.  


I have actually considered sending my Steiner in to have the turrets re-done because the  elevation turret does not offer tactile or audible clicks in a repeatable fashion.  Considering that it is a set-and-forget scope and that it holds zero very well, so far I have just decided to live with it.  It tracks properly if you manage to count the clicks that are almost impossible to count.  

The turrets are where the Razor shines.  A very easy system to dial and then return yourself to your original zero.  Simple, simple, simple, and they just work perfectly.  I would dial for wind without hesitation, if I ever needed to.  Or I would trust it to track between settings for different ammo, for another example.

Razor is nuclear bright.  I don't think I have ever used it on a brightness setting over 8.  The Steiner does have two NV settings, and is more than bright enough.  I don't use the top end settings on that optic either.  Razor knob locks, which is nice.  At 1x I find them to be roughly equal on eyebox, eye relief, etc.   Both are very forgiving.  Both are similar on top magnification as well.  Razor FOV at 6x seems pretty close to Steiner at 5x.   I snagged my Steiner used on the EE for significantly less than new price.  Maybe the seller was really put off by the turrets.  For what I paid I am very satisfied, and have no plans to replace it.  It has seen some 3-gun use as a loaner rifle to a buddy who didn't have a setup for a team event.  I don't have any way to quantify if it is as rugged as the Razor, but I trust it.

As you noted, the Viper has a much more forgiving eyebox than the Stike Eagle. If the choice was between just those two and not the higher-priced optics, I'd want the better eyebox rather than the higher magnification if I was having to use the gun seriously.

This. 

It's like a t1 on 10 or so, as I recall t1s.

Thanks.

The reason I ask at all is because I don't need a super bright reticle, the T1s I have never go above the 2nd or 3rd visible setting.  I have an astigmatism in my right eye, so anything more than that causes the dot to splash out and almost become unusable.  

I can get the Leupold with the reticle i want for about $1000.  If it'll fill MY NEEDS, then I'd rather spend the "extra money" on a Larue LT104 to hold it in place (than to spend it on a heavier optic that goes brighter than I really need)

I looked through one really quick at a gun show, for the price it's not bad. To my eye it had a little bit more distortion at 1x around the edges than the razor gen 2

EDIT:

more SF guys with a razor 1-6

Sold my MK6 1-6 TMR-D & bought a PST Gen II 1-6. Zero Regrets. I have a Razor Gen II 3-18 [different rifle] and it's pretty fantastic. The Gen II 1-6 optics are the best 85% of the Razor 1-6 at a reasonable cost and weight. The PST is not a Razor but the optics and build quality are well above the PA and other scopes in it's cost bracket.

What about ELCAN?

The other thing that nobody ever seems to mention about the Mark 6 is the illumination flicker. Basically if you are not perfectly behind the scope the illumination appears to cut out even though you still have a full field of view.  When I looked though it and saw it I was(and am still amazed) that is considered OK on a $1600 optic.

It's not ideal, but it has tradeoffs, such as lightweight, durable as hell, brighter than almost any other lpv, very low light spill signature from even slightly off axis front / rear.

"Flickering", is not an accurate description. The illumination doesn't flicker it actually dims as you move your head out of the field of view of the scope. If you maintain a cheek weld or even close to one then this will never happen. However the reason to buy 1x optics is so that a cheek weld can be maintained which IMO makes this a moot point. I wouldn't buy a 1x so I can try to move my head off the stock in order to look around the optic rather than through it with both eyes open. The dot is not horrible in it's required eye position if your unable to see the dot then you don't have full field of view. Conversely taking your eye far enough out of alignment of the field of view for the MK6 for dot to dim to the point it was not visible would be enough to cause paralax error and POI shift with any variable power optic. BTW I've gotten rough measurements of up to a 100+ moa shit doing this with an illuminated VX-R 3-9.

To clarify, you have one issue with brand K, so brand K is garbage, other users have issue with brand L, but you defend brand L because you know better?  Got it...fanboyism at its finest.  While you are free to post your thoughts and opinions, the chances of anyone taking your opinions seriously after being so overtly biased, is zero.

ETA on topic...
For the rest of the posters, I would like to hear more about the accupower 1-8 any recent experiences from anyone?

I'll just leave this here...

Trijicon Accupower 1-8x


https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2.php?id=AccuPower&mid=1-8x28

Looks to be mounted in a Geissele mount as well!

yep.....thats where i'm heading shOOn.

I know there was a thread where it was pretty much beaten up over not being "daylight bright" but Im more interested in the comparison between it and the PA platinum 1-8, which there doesnt seem to be much opinion on other than good stuff.

I'm VERY interested in this one. I wonder what the street price will be?

Looks like the Accupower 1-8 has been out for a while. I had no idea this was even a thing until today.

it, what??

Ebay has them for between $1,125 and $1,445 (no mount)

I own scopes from both companies and I assure you it does me no favours to speak poorly of products I own especially when the product cost me $3, 000, I'd much rather tell others how great my Kahles is, but it isn't and I can't. The MK8 on the other hand is a much better option for those thinking about the Kahles, better glass, better durability, lifetime warranty with the CQBSS vs 11yrs with the Kahles, better turrets, better H27D reticle. IMO the MK8 is the best LPV money can buy the only thing that gives it competition is the Schmidt & Bender and I've handled them all. I am only trying to relay to my experiences to others regarding the poor durability that I observed with my Kahles and the companies customer service in handling the issue. I regret buying a Kahles scope and I wish I'd gotten something else.

I love my ACOG but want something variable with a bit more than 4x on the long end for a different gun.

I am under no delusion that I am an operator or going to be Rambo if SHTF. I just like quality stuff. For optics I like the clarity and brightness of good glass.

I am looking at a Trijicon VCOG, ELCAN 1x-6x and would love to find a sub $1000 optic that is as well built with good clear glass but not sure it exists.

The SWFA SS HD 1-6 tends to get overlooked because it's not branded by a big scope company but it's a very rugged, feature-rich, quality optic that can be found for under $1K. The field of view is narrower than some of its competition but the glass is very good. I have a Kahles K16i and, though it has better glass, the SWFA holds its own just fine side by side.

Been to SWFA and was also impressed with their scopes in the LPV variety. The reticles are pretty well thought out, IMO, for a non-Horus. Reminded me of an econo-version of the Nightforce NXS 1-4

I just found this. $1,150.15 from Universal Mania

Is Universal Mania a legit company to buy from?

https://www.bbb.org/raleigh-durham/business-reviews/global-positioning-system-gps-stores/universal-mania-in-raeford-nc-90139981/reviews-and-complaints?section=reviews&reviewtype=negative
Pass.

Call Scopelist or Sport Optics so you don't have to worry. Recently had a friend buy a counterfeit T2 off of Amazon, shipped from an Amazon dist. warehouse. Stick with KNOWNS.