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Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 9/24/2016 12:54:45 AM EDT
I dont fully understand.   Everything I read says to maintain proper eye relief but then when I look at any platform with a offset scope mount attached, I dont understand how individual rings cant achieve the same results.

I have individual rings as of now, they work fine, in fact I can't find new rings to match the 30mm saddle height......but  I now need  a mount with QD levers so I can set up the gun for different situations/game more easily in the field but cant justify an offset mount because of the added weight of the extra material when I can achieve the same scope position with individual rings.

Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.  
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 1:12:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Usually there isn't room on the receiver for individual rings unless you hold your head really far back and your scope has very short eye relief. A lot of people like the rear of the eye box to be more or less even with the charging handle.

For example, the rifle below, where would this person put the front ring if he wasn't using a extended mount?



What scope are you using and how close is your nose to the charging handle while shooting?
Can you post a pic of your current setup?
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 1:29:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Usually there isn't room on the receiver for individual rings unless you hold your head really far back and your scope has very short eye relief.

For example, the rifle below, where would this person put the front ring if he wasn't using a extended mount?
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/butterscotchgent/DSC_1006.jpg


What scope are you using and how close is your nose to the charging handle while shooting?
Can you post a pic of your current setup?
View Quote



Looking at the picture, it appears the front mount has plenty open pic section under it, why couldnt a solo ring be placed there?  Even so the scope body has enough available room to align a individual ring with the rail section.

My scope has about 3.5-4" eye relief.  It is not really branded, I  started/invested in a small scope business few years back with a buddy but it was to hard to send scopes back to the manufacturer for warranty because customs considers it aiding terrorism and confiscated large shipments to the tune of thousands of dollars, so we pulled the plug and cut our losses.

The scope uses glass from japan and were made on the same line in a china factory that made many optics for vortex.  I have owned it for 3 years now, same cheap rings its came with.  We sold this particular scope for 209.99.

I never invested a lot of mental energy into scope mounts because the bizz was still fairly new and the amount of info I had to pack in my head understanding optic manufacturing was enough to keep me busy for the two years we were around.





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Link Posted: 9/24/2016 1:52:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Looking at the picture, it appears the front mount has plenty open pic section under it, why couldnt a solo ring be placed there?  Even so the scope body has enough available room to align a individual ring with the rail section.

My scope has about 3.5-4" eye relief.  It is not really branded, I  started/invested in a small scope business few years back with a buddy but it was to hard to send scopes back to the manufacturer for warranty because customs considers it aiding terrorism and confiscated large shipments to the tune of thousands of dollars, so we pulled the plug and cut our losses.

The scope uses glass from japan and were made on the same line in a china factory that made many optics for vortex.  I have owned it for 3 years now, same cheap rings its came with.  We sold this particular scope for 209.99.

I never invested a lot of mental energy into scope mounts because the bizz was still fairly new and the amount of info I had to pack in my head understanding optic manufacturing was enough to keep me busy for the two years we were around.

<a href="http://postimg.org/image/jf8k9l6kd/" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/jf8k9l6kd/IMG_2971.jpg</a>

<a href="http://postimg.org/image/cq20tkl8d/" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/cq20tkl8d/IMG_2972_1.jpg</a>

<a href="http://postimage.org" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/nodabr9tt/IMG_2971.jpg</a>how to capture screen

<a href="http://postimage.org" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/jt9w96qo1/IMG_2972_(1).jpg</a>how to capture screen

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Usually there isn't room on the receiver for individual rings unless you hold your head really far back and your scope has very short eye relief.

For example, the rifle below, where would this person put the front ring if he wasn't using a extended mount?
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/butterscotchgent/DSC_1006.jpg


What scope are you using and how close is your nose to the charging handle while shooting?
Can you post a pic of your current setup?



Looking at the picture, it appears the front mount has plenty open pic section under it, why couldnt a solo ring be placed there?  Even so the scope body has enough available room to align a individual ring with the rail section.

My scope has about 3.5-4" eye relief.  It is not really branded, I  started/invested in a small scope business few years back with a buddy but it was to hard to send scopes back to the manufacturer for warranty because customs considers it aiding terrorism and confiscated large shipments to the tune of thousands of dollars, so we pulled the plug and cut our losses.

The scope uses glass from japan and were made on the same line in a china factory that made many optics for vortex.  I have owned it for 3 years now, same cheap rings its came with.  We sold this particular scope for 209.99.

I never invested a lot of mental energy into scope mounts because the bizz was still fairly new and the amount of info I had to pack in my head understanding optic manufacturing was enough to keep me busy for the two years we were around.

<a href="http://postimg.org/image/jf8k9l6kd/" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/jf8k9l6kd/IMG_2971.jpg</a>

<a href="http://postimg.org/image/cq20tkl8d/" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/cq20tkl8d/IMG_2972_1.jpg</a>

<a href="http://postimage.org" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/nodabr9tt/IMG_2971.jpg</a>how to capture screen

<a href="http://postimage.org" target="_blank">http://s14.postimg.org/jt9w96qo1/IMG_2972_(1).jpg</a>how to capture screen



You don't want to bridge the gap between your upper and the rail on your handguard and most people need the scope farather forward than you have e.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 2:46:43 AM EDT
[#4]
Op, your setup looks very uncomfortable from an unsupported shooting position. 3-4" eye relief from the exit pupil where your scope is mounted looks like it requires an excessive length of pull for a comfortable head position. Must be lots of strain in your primary arm.

As to your original question why the so-called gap shouldn't be bridged with two scope rings on the receiver and handguard, the answer is probably a bit nebulous. For the weekend bench or dirt shooter, it probably won't matter too much. A quality free float rail with a beefy mounting system, like Geissele's offerings, should minimize most issues.

But under high speed, you can see the different flex points in the AR, one of them being the barrel, and by extension the handguard. Tolerances stack and that movement under fire translates into a lot of flex and twisting of the optics and mounts/rings at different rates. Add other factors like a sling or a bipod and you're introducing more variables. I think for those who depend and/or fight with their firearms, it's one more potential trouble point that is eliminated by using a one-piece mount, when mounted directly to the upper receiver.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 3:48:16 AM EDT
[#5]
I never felt uncomfortable.  I just measured my eye relief, its 4.5".   I adjust my length of pull by having the butt contact my bicep and or until my nose is pointed at about 1 o clock position. Basically my stock is all the way extended for most comfortable shooting otherwise my arms are too retracted feeling and I dont get a good lock on the handguard.

When you say excessive what do you mean?  As in having to have my stock all the way extended?  Thats how I shoot, I was taught on a m16 which is fixed rifle length so my go to is all the way extended.  In tight quarters ill collapse but thats usually just for transport like riding in a vehicle.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 7:12:12 AM EDT
[#6]
Well a lot of us, especially military background guys were taught nose to charging handle.  So your scope would be too far back for us.  But whatever works for you.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 8:08:04 AM EDT
[#7]
CH clearance is also a big deal to many shooters.  I don't like anything being in the way of my CHs, and I typically run a BCM or similar.

Even my preference to use uppers without F/A provision means I have more room for ambidextrous CHs.

Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:11:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.  
View Quote


yes, people dont shoot the same

your setup will only work for people that shoot with their head up and stock fully extended, which is very few
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:12:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I never felt uncomfortable.  I just measured my eye relief, its 4.5".   I adjust my length of pull by having the butt contact my bicep and or until my nose is pointed at about 1 o clock position. Basically my stock is all the way extended for most comfortable shooting otherwise my arms are too retracted feeling and I dont get a good lock on the handguard.
View Quote


most dont run it extended, and shoot more forward
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:26:14 AM EDT
[#10]
None of my civilian friends shoot nose to CH, so they would like your setup.
All of the ex-mil people I know do shoot nose to CH.
When I learned that method optics were only used by snipers and night vision was extremely rare.
With the nose to CH hold I can switch from optics to irons with no change in hold.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:40:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


yes, people dont shoot the same

your setup will only work for people that shoot with their head up and stock fully extended, which is very few
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.  


yes, people dont shoot the same

your setup will only work for people that shoot with their head up and stock fully extended, which is very few

I notice quite a few new shooters will gravitate towards that without any instruction

OP, I would bash my face into your scope if I shot it at the LOP I like

Link Posted: 9/24/2016 10:11:48 AM EDT
[#12]
OP should set his scope position however works for him.  Its his face, stock and scope.

But, to the extent he questions the overwhelming body of cumulative experience that cantilever mounts provide a better eye relief for most of us on the short upper AR15, he is trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. We just don't shoot with our heads that far back.

Do what works.  For me, and, I suspect most of us, though an eyepiece way back behind the charge handle will not work well.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 10:15:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 8:47:40 PM EDT
[#14]
I tried shooting with the rifle setup like that today.  I couldnt get used to it.  I was unable to lock my left forearm on the handguard which is how I control recoil.  If I tried to fully extend my arm so I could lock it, I would be touching the barrel.  I also noticed the charging handle was bumping my nose. Nothing huge but it was touching it on and off between follow ups.

I been shooting tens years like that so I suppose its what Im used too.  In the AF when we qualified and all that mumbo jumbo, we were giving m16s so that is where I got used to having my head further back on the stock.

I do a lot of three gun stuff and having my forearm locked is the only way I can shoot follow ups with minimal flip, so it naturally transfer over when I am shooting with glass at target.

I guess I I dont need a off set mount.  Anyone have any good recommendations of some QD rings that arent stupid expensive. Not looking for laRue, just something with atleast 30mm rise to bottom of saddle.  

Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:09:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I tried shooting with the rifle setup like that today.  I couldnt get used to it.  I was unable to lock my left forearm on the handguard which is how I control recoil.  If I tried to fully extend my arm so I could lock it, I would be touching the barrel.  I also noticed the charging handle was bumping my nose. Nothing huge but it was touching it on and off between follow ups.

I been shooting tens years like that so I suppose its what Im used too.  In the AF when we qualified and all that mumbo jumbo, we were giving m16s so that is where I got used to having my head further back on the stock.

I do a lot of three gun stuff and having my forearm locked is the only way I can shoot follow ups with minimal flip, so it naturally transfer over when I am shooting with glass at target.

I guess I I dont need a off set mount.  Anyone have any good recommendations of some QD rings that arent stupid expensive. Not looking for laRue, just something with atleast 30mm rise to bottom of saddle.  

Thanks.
View Quote


Warne makes QD rings.  In my experience, Warne products offer a lot for the money.
Link Posted: 9/24/2016 9:50:31 PM EDT
[#16]
^^^ Thanks man.

Im thinking I will order these: https://www.amazon.com/Warne-Scope-Mounts-Detach-1-Inch/dp/B0029M43Y6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1474767525&sr=8-6&keywords=warne+scope+rings


Review say they are heavy but description says 4oz.  Does that sound accurate?  Amazon isnt always those mose accurate when it comes to product descriptions.
Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
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