Okay Guys

Recently purchased a Spikes ST-15 16" LE M4 here and I want to keep it pretty simple, their are a few mods I plan on doing like adding a drop in hand guard from DD or Midwest, an ambi safety etc.. but I want to keep the A2 FSB as I like the look and I just recently purchased everything I need to load .223 on my 550 so kinda broke but enough rambling my next investment needs to be a simple red dot and my initial thought is a Eotech with either a 3X or 6X magnifer and be able to flip out the magnifier when not needed and set up a co-witness with the front A2 FSB and rear magpul so looking for whether this a good idea or are their better options.

Please forgive the stupid questions as this is my first AR (Been a .30 cal M1/M1A guy for alot of years.

Thanks,

BTW Here's the family:

First off, nice family. Secondly, the Eotech/magnifier combo that you're contemplating is very popular on rifles just like yours. Looks like you're willing to spend the dough on a nice setup, and that's good. I personally have a T-1 on my DD (no magnifier) . But if I could do it again, I'd save a few bucks and go with H1.  You'll find that people either favor Aimpoints, or Eotechs. Both make good products. Good luck, OP.

So far I have heard the Eotech may not be the best for battery longevity it may be something like a Aimpoint Pro Patrol with either a 3X or 6X magnifier, still have a lot of research to do and gotta save money after buying my reloads.

Eotechs are good and I owned 2 years ago.  But battery life isn't that great.  And using AA batteries you run the risk of them leaking inside the battery compartment if left unused.  Over the years I sold my Eotechs and shifted over to Aimpoints for my red dot usage.

Would like to maybe look into something like this after my checkbook recovers from the reloading supplies

I've heard nothing but good things about the Pro, and Primary Arms is a great company to deal with. With that said, you might want to check out Palmetto State Armory too. Also, how are your eyes?  Do you have astigmatism or any other problems?  If so, it may become evident he first time to look through a red dot. With Aimpoint, you get the great battery life, and toughness.  But i kind of wish Aimpoints had the cool reticles like Eotech.

When people compare the Eotech to Aimpoint the only thing I read is about how the Aimpoint is better because of battery life.  

Otherwise I have read that the Eotech is the faster target acquisition sight.  For me that's what matters.  For my purposes..i could care less if the Aimpoint last 1 or 2 years longer or whatever it is.  I can afford a new battery once in awhile even if its as bad as every 6 months.  

I will take a faster target acquisition anyday over a longer battery life.

Am I mistaken?

Ive hit running targets from a moving helicopter with an Eotech, I flew an OH58D for 9 years.  They are better for that purpose than an Aimpoint, the Eotech presents a better heads up display appearance with a wider field of view.

But for overall ruggedness and use on my personal guns I prefer the Aimpoint.

That Bell is a nasty little chopper if it was armed anything like the pic I saw on google.  Thanx for your service.

ETA:  Do you think you could of hit those targets if you were using the aimpoint?

Appreciate the input from everyone so far and my vision is pretty good, I did have a mono vision Lasik correction and my shooting eye is for distance and it does not seem to affect me shooting with irons or a standard scope so I have to ask is a red dot going to be different ?

You had just your shooting eye corrected?

I need glasses for distance also so need to take them off when using irons.  Was considering Lasik.

Not mistaken as it is about user preference and intended use.  Aimpoint does have other advantages.  For home defense, it can just be left on for years, so when something goes bump in the night you just pick up the rifle, dot is already there, no button to push.  They are also more rugged.  I'm not sure target acquisition time could be proven as "faster" with an EOtech either assuming the Aimpoint is being run both eyes open, it would take a shot timer to know for sure.

I prefer the EOtech reticle, but not enough to overlook the battery life and having to turn it on factor.  My H1 wearing AR is for HD though.  Either way, I would skip the magnifier for now.  It is probably flip a coin whether you will like it down the road, they are bulky and heavy and not nearly as good as a dedicated magnified optic.  You should be able to reliably hit a torso size target out to 300m with just a dot sight.

No Sir, I had both corrected, they did mono vision correction and that means they adjust your dominant eye for reading and the other for distance which seems odd to me as he said the dominant eye is not the eye I shoot with...go figure

I did like the double ring my Eotech 512 had that was mounted to a DPMS LR-308 I had many years back but I sold it all to get a M1A and currently the magnifer comes free with the optic

I could care less about having to turn it on.  For home defense I have a Remington 870 with an extended mag tube and my full size .45 Kimber Warrior.

If all hell brakes loose in society and I need to be on my roof protecting my house then the AR comes out and I can turn on the Eotech.

As far as hitting targets at 300m I definitely need a magnifier because I cant see distance very well without glasses.

Those were good times, now I fly a plane that flies itself while I read gun porn.

Yes those hits could be made with an Aimpoint.  But for making a consistent shot at certain airspeeds, the Eotech circle and dot reticle combined with a large viewing window allowed for easier first time hits compared to what Ive always felt was a more restrictive field of view in the tube of an Aimpoint.

My unit did its first official M4 out the door gunnery in 2005.  Nobody had optics at that point, I brought my Eotech that day and prior to our deployment every rifle had one.  I continued using the Eotech for 3 deployments, later some guys preferred Aimpoints.  Some guys went with ACOGs in case they found themselves suddenly on foot.  The Eotech was great for what I did with it.  But I eventually sold mine, and now I only run Aimpoints.  Mainly for battery life and I feel that they are more durable.

what was it about the Acogs that made them better for the guys on foot?

If we went down in Iraq it would be right on top of the friendly ground guys we were providing air support to, and most likely in an urban area.

In Afghanistan it was helicopter versus Taliban most of the time in remote terrain with the nearest friendly ground forces an hour or more from being able to respond.  So the logic was that we would be on our own for a while, that's where the ACOG would come in handy making longer defensive shots.  I can see the logic.  My buddies M4 bent when he crashed, others have had the M4 end up 50 yards away after the front end of the helicopter comes apart on impact.

I figured I would have so many broken bones and ruptured organs in that scenario that I would just keep the Eotech, what difference would it really make in the end.  I did keep about 600 rounds of 556 and plenty of 9mm in the bird though.

ACOG's fit the bill in the USMC well because ideally we have 3 SAW's laying down suppressive fire + establishing fire superiority, indirect fire interrupting OODA loops, and riflemen taking precise shots with their ACOG's.

You won't have these comforts most likely. Therefore, I'd advise a red dot. Personal preference, but I enjoy a simple reticule and battery life, so the aimpoint wins.

The ACOG shines bright in its military context, but out of it... meh. Too slow. Furthermore, if you don't train a ton, you can still be very fast with a red dot. They're too simple to jack up.

I have a Eotech w/ a 6x magnifier as well. My thoughts on it are mixed. Its nice on paper but there's a lot going on, I'm not sure if I'd use it well under intense pressure. These decisions are extremely personal. Buy used off the EE, try the optic out, and if you don't like it sell it for a moderate (if any) loss & buy the next optic.

I may start off with an Eotech and currently they are giving away the magnifier with the red dot so if I don't like it i could sell it off, i remember how much I did the like Eotech on my DPMS LR-308 and could use that 2nd ring to estimate targets but I am sussing by the time I can come up with $500+ it may not be an issue

I had an EoTech 552.A65 with a 3X magnifier. With the magnifier flipped to the side it made my AR feel unbalanced. Ended up selling both an replaced it with a a Leupold Mk6 1-6X20 I took of my HK MR762 that now wear a Bushnell Tactical Elite G2DMR 3.5-21X50 scope.

I hear this sentiment expressed a lot on the internet, but I'm not sure that there's any real documentation on this fact.  Only a video of Larry Vickers tossing a T1 around.  My own experience and anecdotal evidence as well as logic seem to suggest the opposite is true.  

Understand - I am talking about ruggedness of the optic itself and its tolerance for abuse, I'm not talking about reliability or battery issues, etc. - but the actual ability of the optic itself to take physical abuse and continue to function.

As far as I can think of - I can recall very few reports or documentation of flat out beat-to-shit broken EOTechs - not for lack of trying - I've seen cracked glass but still functioning and useable, I've seen aluminum hoods dented to shit - optic still working - I've seen cracked battery compartments - optic still working.  Now - some might argue that the reliability issues of the EOTech cause it to crap out before it can get beat to shit and break for that reason, and if that's what one choses to believe - then it's really discussion over as far as they're concerned.

Otherwise - EOTechs tend to be flat, squat, and well protected physically from "blunt force trauma."  Comparatively, Aimpoints, with all their various protuberances, I've seen literally by the milk crate-full deadlined with various problems ranging from brightness knobs twisted off, bent, battery compartments bent and broken off, adjustment caps crushed and smashed - anything that sticks out and can be dinged, bent, or crushed did.  Non-"deadlines" included broken mounts (bent QRP knobs), tubes crushed/dented from abuse/overtightening, ones that insisted on and continued rotating free in their mounts and rattling loose, no matter how much you tried to tighten them - and this is before electronic problems, assuming we're ruling them out.  

Of course, arguably, I have been around several magnitudes more "institutionally issued" Aimpoints versus EOTechs, though I've been around both, and they are generally "hard used" optics, and broken by the types "who could break an anvil" - so I'll concede some of the large number I've seen could be attributed simply to sample size.

On the other hand - I've not seen a similar number of ACOGs "by the milk crate full" that were deadlined - even if you assume a 1:3 or 1:4 basis of issue compared to Aimpoints - I have not seen 1/3 or 1/4 as many deadlined ACOGs as I have Aimpoints - which I know is anecdotally adding another variable (this is not a scientific analysis) - but this tells me that the failure rate in similar use is significantly higher in Aimpoints than in ACOGs - right - obvious to most, and generally uncontested, but just a point of anecdotal personal experience.  

Now - once again, granted - this is with "older" models - namely the CompM2 - arguably many of these issues have been addressed with the CompM4 - but the CompM4 is arguably the least popular of the Aimpoint models civilian side - with the PRO being the most popular of the "full size models" - and still based on CompM/M2/3 body and mounting style, and Aimpoint has fairly openly admitted that they are somewhat less rugged than the military models.  

Anyways - the point of all this is not/has not been to re-spark that tired old Aimpoint versus EOTech debate - it is only to say that my overall impression of the Aimpoint has been that they're fairly delicate compared to the other major "combat optics" available - which is not to say that they're dainty glass sculptures - but that if I expected to be "knocked around" a bunch - riding in, fast roping out of helicopters, falling off armored vehicles, ride in the bustle rack of a tank, tumbling down mountains, etc. I would not choose an Aimpoint first hanging out "proud" and unprotected on a talk, stalk-like mount, just asking to be snapped off.    

I've done most of those things with my personally owned EOTechs - including while wearing a green suit during SW Asia adventure safaris - in part because I consider them far more rugged than the issued Aimpoints - and while I've had the occasional hood screw vibrate loose (after having been used on a machine gun - no, not a select fire M4 - like an M240) the six or seven or so that I have have never given me much cause for concern.  I've also owned five Aimpoints - mostly for "clone" purposes, frankly, and have ended up getting rid of all of them... though I'm currently thinking about picking up a couple more if I can get a good deal... once again - for clone purposes.  

...back to your regularly scheduled programming...

~Augee

::shrug::

Call it parochial favoritism, but I think that the Army's "mixed optic" approach is superior to the "blanket" issue of RCOs in the Marine Corps, though there's been rumblings of an attempt to move to an "SCO" or "Squad Common Optic" in a variable form for the Army.  

Precision fires are good - but if you "assume" that the role of infantry is to maneuver, close with, and destroy - an RDS is, IMHO, superior for an assaulting force as a standard issue.  

~Augee

Thanx for that first hand info.  Makes my choice of an Eotech so much easier.

This is one of the most information intense, fact filled, intelligent, objective, and lucid comparisons I've ever seen.  And one of the best posts on this site.  

I can push a button, so "on all the time" is not good enough for me to go Aimpoint.  I am pretty certain that EOTech will be my next RDS purchase.  Thank you, Sir!

Right...I too can push a button.

Thanks Augee it's a pretty easy decision now and like I said I like the Eotech 512 on my DPMS LR-308 and it seemed well built, I also think for me the AA ver. is a better choice as I can get those batteries anywhere but will look into that difference next

Buy a spare battery pack if you're going to use the AA version.  You can get them from Midway of Brownells.  Ive seen a few Eotechs that had the AA batteries leak.

So maybe the AA version is not the best choice ? And I did not know you could buy a battery pack I thought the 512 was one housing with a door/cap to access the battery compartment.

I have to say, in terms of a gunsight I slightly prefer the eotech, and find I tend to be slightly faster with one. IMO I think they're both rugged optics, but the eotech has a slight advantage in terms of ruggedness and staying running while taking a beating, while the AP has an advantage in terms of general reliability in the sense that eotechs just seem to decide to fucking die for no particular reason. L3 has awesome CS, but I just flat can't seem to keep an eotech running to save my life. So for a GP optic, I just have to admit that I personally trust an AP slightly more, despite preferring the eotech design.

The problem with AA batteries and AAAs in optics that use them is that people select the wrong type.   Get lithium batteries for any electronic you want to keep.   Alkaline batteries leak.  They will.  Almost guaranteed, if you leave them in place.   Lithium batteries have a very long shelf life and do not leak, or at least no more so that watch type batteries, which are also lithium.  Yes, the button or flat disc watch  batteries used by other optics are lithium.  Just get lithium AAs and roll.  Problem solved.  

Best ones I have found are the Energizer Ultimate Lithium.  A 4-pack is currently $7.50 on Amazon.  Strong, reliable, cheap compared to watch battery lithium, and you can always run on any old AA in a pinch in apocalypse scenario and just check frequently for leaks. Buy big bulk packs of the Energize Ultimate and save more.

I can respect that -

My goal was not to try to convince people to go EOTech over Aimpoint - that discussion has been hashed over time and time again, and the information is out there - like I've said - personally I've never had any electrical problems with EOTechs in the many I've used, but there are plenty of people out there with other experiences - far be it from to call them all liars - once again - the information is out there for individual consumers to make the decision they see as best fitting their needs.  

I could/would also concede that arguably the Aimpoint might be better for a civilian HD or LEO patrol-car weapon because of the ability to simply "leave it on" all the time, which might be a better way to go for someone who maybe uses/carries their rifle on their person less, but rather need to be grabbed at a moment's notice to be used "right now."

The point of my post was just to point out that a lot of times I see people writing/saying things like "Aimpoints are more durable/rugged," which I don't think is supported by any objective facts, and is certainly not supported by my experience - and I believe that anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that the opposite is true.  Which is not to say Aimpoints aren't rugged, they certainly are and are more than rugged enough for the vast majority of users - I would agree with those who say that as long as one or the other works for you - you generally "can't go wrong."  

~Augee