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"Metric prefixes have limited use with radians, and none in mathematics.
There are 2π × 1000 milliradians (≈ 6283.185 mrad) in a circle. So a trigonometric milliradian is just under 1⁄6283 of a circle. This “real” trigonometric unit of angular measurement of a circle is in use by telescopic sight manufacturers using (stadiametric) rangefinding in reticles. The divergence of laser beams is also usually measured in milliradians. An approximation of the trigonometric milliradian (0.001 rad), known as the (angular) mil, is used by NATO and other military organizations in gunnery and targeting. Each angular mil represents 1⁄6400 of a circle and is 1-⅞% smaller than the trigonometric milliradian. For the small angles typically found in targeting work, the convenience of using the number 6400 in calculation outweighs the small mathematical errors it introduces. In the past, other gunnery systems have used different approximations to 1⁄2000π; for example Sweden used the 1⁄6300 streck and the USSR used 1⁄6000. Being based on the milliradian, the NATO mil subtends roughly 1 m at a range of 1000 m (at such small angles, the curvature is negligible)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian A MOA is actually 1.0471996 inches at 100 yards. I call it 1 inch. To me 1 MOA is 10" @1000 yds. It's really just under 10.5". To me it's 1/4" = 1 click. Not sure if mils are actually metric. I believe 1 mil is 36" @ 1000 meters(1093yds). A click is .36" and what not. This is really over my head to try and explain. I'm not a purist so I can live with believing 1MOA @300yds= 3 inches. In reality it's 3.1415988 inches. I also believe most target shooters prefer the MOA system since .25 is less then .36. I also believe you can get scopes that will do 1/8" clicks. Now my brain hurts. Thanks. One of the geeks need to step up to the plate here. |
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Mils are not metric. Here is more on that.
The major disadvantage to MOA/MOA systems is that the overwhelming majority of shooters have Mil-based reticles. So who ever is spotting for you needs to have the same system to effectively communicate hits/misses. I prefer Mil/Mil. I have one MOA/MOA scope, a PST 1-4. I choose it because the Mil version was .2 MRAD per click and I did not want that coarse of an adjustment. .1 mil adjustments are just right. That and with 5.56 carbine I can spot my own hits/misses. |
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"Metric prefixes have limited use with radians, and none in mathematics. There are 2π × 1000 milliradians (≈ 6283.185 mrad) in a circle. So a trigonometric milliradian is just under 1⁄6283 of a circle. This “real” trigonometric unit of angular measurement of a circle is in use by telescopic sight manufacturers using (stadiametric) rangefinding in reticles. The divergence of laser beams is also usually measured in milliradians. An approximation of the trigonometric milliradian (0.001 rad), known as the (angular) mil, is used by NATO and other military organizations in gunnery and targeting. Each angular mil represents 1⁄6400 of a circle and is 1-⅞% smaller than the trigonometric milliradian. For the small angles typically found in targeting work, the convenience of using the number 6400 in calculation outweighs the small mathematical errors it introduces. In the past, other gunnery systems have used different approximations to 1⁄2000π; for example Sweden used the 1⁄6300 streck and the USSR used 1⁄6000. Being based on the milliradian, the NATO mil subtends roughly 1 m at a range of 1000 m (at such small angles, the curvature is negligible)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian A MOA is actually 1.0471996 inches at 100 yards. I call it 1 inch. To me 1 MOA is 10" @1000 yds. It's really just under 10.5". To me it's 1/4" = 1 click. Not sure if mils are actually metric. I believe 1 mil is 36" @ 1000 meters(1093yds). A click is .36" and what not. This is really over my head to try and explain. I'm not a purist so I can live with believing 1MOA @300yds= 3 inches. In reality it's 3.1415988 inches. I also believe most target shooters prefer the MOA system since .25 is less then .36. I also believe you can get scopes that will do 1/8" clicks. Now my brain hurts. Thanks. One of the geeks need to step up to the plate here. After arguing about this with my buddies at work (we're all engineers but just not the right type) we've come to the conclusion that there is some sort of coincidence at work here in terms of how 1 mil can magically convert to 1 meter at 1000 meters while MOA can scale to 1 inch at 100 yards...or perhaps there aren't. It is too convenient that the people who decided MOA just happens to be 1/60 of a circle and MRAD is 1/1000 of a circle and if we scale those out, they just happen to work well with English and Metric units. |
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Mils are not metric. Here is more on that. The major disadvantage to MOA/MOA systems is that the overwhelming majority of shooters have Mil-based reticles. So who ever is spotting for you needs to have the same system to effectively communicate hits/misses. I prefer Mil/Mil. I have one MOA/MOA scope, a PST 1-4. I choose it because the Mil version was .2 MRAD per click and I did not want that coarse of an adjustment. .1 mil adjustments are just right. That and with 5.56 carbine I can spot my own hits/misses. Yes, except it was adopted by metric militaries because their lengths work in neat decimals while our lengths work in garbage conversions that some English guy back in the 17th century came up. |
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Mils are not metric. Here is more on that. The major disadvantage to MOA/MOA systems is that the overwhelming majority of shooters have Mil-based reticles. So who ever is spotting for you needs to have the same system to effectively communicate hits/misses. I prefer Mil/Mil. I have one MOA/MOA scope, a PST 1-4. I choose it because the Mil version was .2 MRAD per click and I did not want that coarse of an adjustment. .1 mil adjustments are just right. That and with 5.56 carbine I can spot my own hits/misses. Yes, except it was adopted by metric militaries because their lengths work in neat decimals while our lengths work in garbage conversions that some English guy back in the 17th century came up. I agree, fractions suck! |
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So if you match your turrets with the ret, what are the advantages from one system to the other?
I prefer MOA. It just seems more natural to me. But why the two systems? I'm still trying to understand why my F150 has 9/16" bolts and 14mm nuts. WTF? |
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I prefer MRADs for these main two reasons:
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15.278844325685380322910742136 or 11.11111111111111111111111111? Same thing!
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15.278844325685380322910742136 or 11.11111111111111111111111111? Same thing! Try dialing 15.278844325685380322910742136 on your scope. I can dial 11.1 into mine. |
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I think I could use either system as long as the reticle matches the turrets. If
I have a choice, I will continue to use MOA because that is what I am used to. |
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Looks like it was a nice day! Absolutely beautiful day to go shooting. |
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Anyone know where I can find one of these in stock? I think everyone is looking. Vortex is supposedly getting a new batch out at the end of May/early June. |
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Anyone know where I can find one of these in stock? Cameralandny.com has the MOA version in stock right now. If you want the MRAD version you can backorder one from them. |
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Anyone know where I can find one of these in stock? Cameralandny.com has the MOA version in stock right now. If you want the MRAD version you can backorder one from them. I am looking for the MOA and called Cameralandny.com earlier today. They are out of stock but they expect more in 2 weeks. I backorder one, but if I can find one in stock I'll cancell the backorder. I am terribly impatient. |
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Anyone know where I can find one of these in stock? Cameralandny.com has the MOA version in stock right now. If you want the MRAD version you can backorder one from them. I am looking for the MOA and called Cameralandny.com earlier today. They are out of stock but they expect more in 2 weeks. I backorder one, but if I can find one in stock I'll cancell the backorder. I am terribly impatient. Just practice on your BUIS in the meantime , at least that's what I tell myself while I wait... |
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x?
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x? I can read it at a little under 5x. It's pretty small on 2.5. However, my eyes ain't what they use to be. |
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x? I can read it at a little under 5x. It's pretty small on 2.5. However, my eyes ain't what they use to be. It's bout the same for me. But what I like about it on 2.5 is I can turn on the illumination and it makes a very handy and fast two eye open scope with a reticle that doesn't clutter up what you are looking at. |
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x? I can read it at a little under 5x. It's pretty small on 2.5. However, my eyes ain't what they use to be. It's bout the same for me. But what I like about it on 2.5 is I can turn on the illumination and it makes a very handy and fast two eye open scope with a reticle that doesn't clutter up what you are looking at. I can concur. You can pretty much pick anything apart if you try hard enough, but it's hard to find any deal breakers on this one. |
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x? I can read it at a little under 5x. It's pretty small on 2.5. However, my eyes ain't what they use to be. It's bout the same for me. But what I like about it on 2.5 is I can turn on the illumination and it makes a very handy and fast two eye open scope with a reticle that doesn't clutter up what you are looking at. I can concur. You can pretty much pick anything apart if you try hard enough, but it's hard to find any deal breakers on this one. Well said. |
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For those who own the PST 2.5-10x32 how visible is the reticle and subtensions at 2.5x? I can read it at a little under 5x. It's pretty small on 2.5. However, my eyes ain't what they use to be. It's bout the same for me. But what I like about it on 2.5 is I can turn on the illumination and it makes a very handy and fast two eye open scope with a reticle that doesn't clutter up what you are looking at. I also concur. I have no complaints about the visibility of the reticle at 2.5x and it makes for fast, two eye open target acquisition. I find the subtensions usable for ranging and holdovers from about 4x on up. This is my first FFP scope and it took a bit of getting used to but now I love it. |
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! Yep, get in line with the rest of us! LOL |
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! Yep, get in line with the rest of us! LOL Found one! AAoptics.com had a MIL version. Last one. He threw in a Vortex bubble level for free . He told me that he has a shipment of several coming in over the next week or so and is taking back orders. I also spoke to Libertyoptics and he expects to have some in the next week or so as well. Libertyoptics is selling them for $699.00. Camerlandny.com is taking backorders but those orders are placed with vortex and dropped shipped from Vortex so you end up in line with everyone else that is on backorder with vortex. Vortex is saying that they are backorder right now till mid to end of July |
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! Yep, get in line with the rest of us! LOL Found one! AAoptics.com had a MIL version. Last one. He threw in a Vortex bubble level for free . He told me that he has a shipment of several coming in over the next week or so and is taking back orders. I also spoke to Libertyoptics and he expects to have some in the next week or so as well. Libertyoptics is selling them for $699.00. Camerlandny.com is taking backorders but those orders are placed with vortex and dropped shipped from Vortex so you end up in line with everyone else that is on backorder with vortex. Vortex is saying that they are backorder right now till mid to end of July Nice! Wait, libertyoptics' website says 799$ Do we need to call them to get the $699 price? |
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I have one of these on order. It's going on a 16" MKM MATEN build. My OBR will handle longer distances and the MKM will be my DMR style light weight 600-800yd gun. Should be great for hunting.
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! Yep, get in line with the rest of us! LOL Found one! AAoptics.com had a MIL version. Last one. He threw in a Vortex bubble level for free . He told me that he has a shipment of several coming in over the next week or so and is taking back orders. I also spoke to Libertyoptics and he expects to have some in the next week or so as well. Libertyoptics is selling them for $699.00. Camerlandny.com is taking backorders but those orders are placed with vortex and dropped shipped from Vortex so you end up in line with everyone else that is on backorder with vortex. Vortex is saying that they are backorder right now till mid to end of July Nice! Wait, libertyoptics' website says 799$ Do we need to call them to get the $699 price? Yea, call and talk with Scott. I left him a message and he called me back a few hours later. He is a good perosn to deal with. |
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! I ordered mine direct from Vortex right at the beginning of March I called this week to check status and they said it looks like it will ship in July My local sportsmans warehouse has one in stock that I got to play with and I am very excited |
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Sounds great.......wish I could find one! I ordered mine direct from Vortex right at the beginning of March I called this week to check status and they said it looks like it will ship in July My local sportsmans warehouse has one in stock that I got to play with and I am very excited Not to brag or anything, but my serial number is <=#000100. |
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Not to brag or anything, but my serial number is <=#000100. Not braggin' either.....but mine is less than #000030. |
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Not to brag or anything, but my serial number is <=#000100. Not braggin' either.....but mine is less than #000030. Mine is <74 and >72. |
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Not to brag or anything, but my serial number is <=#000100. Not braggin' either.....but mine is less than #000030. Mine is <74 and >72. I must have come late to the party. I'm all the way up at 217 |
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Well I got my one piece shims today from Hydra-Shokz. They look great. The first of 4 is already installed in one of my Viper PST 1-4 optics. I ordered them a few thousandths thick so I could "FILE FIT" them to be a solid ZERO STOP. Well, not perfect.....but WAY better than the factory "stack-o-shims." Here is a pic of the shims......and I'll post more pics of them installed....later. THANKS SO MUCH TO Hydra-Shokz. Excellent idea here. <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/yfz450air/media/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/yfz450air/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg</a> How much? I need one! |
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Well I got my one piece shims today from Hydra-Shokz. They look great. The first of 4 is already installed in one of my Viper PST 1-4 optics. I ordered them a few thousandths thick so I could "FILE FIT" them to be a solid ZERO STOP. Well, not perfect.....but WAY better than the factory "stack-o-shims." Here is a pic of the shims......and I'll post more pics of them installed....later. THANKS SO MUCH TO Hydra-Shokz. Excellent idea here. <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/yfz450air/media/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/yfz450air/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg</a> No file dude! Use a very flat surface and some 320, 600 and 1000 grit sandpaper. The have it a Pep-boys for a few bucks. You can probably get away with just 320 but I shined mine up a little. Also try putting the turret back on before you get too close to zero. It's hard to turn that thing by hand. This will keep you from going too far. If you take your time you should be able to get it to stop right on zero. My first try was 2 clicks past zero. you also might want to dial up a few MOA's or mils when your not using them. They aren't perfect but they are far better than them shitty stacking shims. Good luck my friend. |
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Well I got my one piece shims today from Hydra-Shokz. They look great. The first of 4 is already installed in one of my Viper PST 1-4 optics. I ordered them a few thousandths thick so I could "FILE FIT" them to be a solid ZERO STOP. Well, not perfect.....but WAY better than the factory "stack-o-shims." Here is a pic of the shims......and I'll post more pics of them installed....later. THANKS SO MUCH TO Hydra-Shokz. Excellent idea here. <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/yfz450air/media/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/yfz450air/Guns/shims_zpscdfbeb9c.jpg</a> How much? I need one! For you? 1 thousand dollar. I'm not making anything off these but thought I'd offer them for anyone interested. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_143/1167732_NEW____Custom_Vortex_PST_zero_stop_shims.html |
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No file dude! Use a very flat surface and some 320, 600 and 1000 grit sandpaper. The have it a Pep-boys for a few bucks. You can probably get away with just 320 but I shined mine up a little. Also try putting the turret back on before you get too close to zero. It's hard to turn that thing by hand. This will keep you from going too far. If you take your time you should be able to get it to stop right on zero. My first try was 2 clicks past zero. you also might want to dial up a few MOA's or mils when your not using them. They aren't perfect but they are far better than them shitty stacking shims. Good luck my friend. Gotcha....I used a very fine file on the first one and it turned out good. I'll switch to some automotive sand paper on the remaining 3 and see how much better that works. I over sanded on my first one by about 2 clicks. But it firms up the last couple clicks anyway.....I am pleased but will try to do even better on the next ones. Thanks. |
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Once I get my 75 OTMs sighted in I will be giving you some of my semi hard earned money.
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Once I get my 75 OTMs sighted in I will be giving you some of my semi hard earned money. That reminds me that I need to find some Blackhills. I haven't really looked into to ammo in a few months since I'm pretty good on M855. Any match grade stuff coming back yet? I'll have to wait anyway since I blew all my lunch money on a new Hoyt Spyder Turbo. I be runnin' around like fuckin' Geronimo, for the last week, thwackin' shit!!! =====> thwack!!! |
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Hey guys,
Anyone got the Vortex 4-16x50 FFP? How does it compare to the much more pricey NF 3.5-15x50? Thanks |
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Hey guys, Anyone got the Vortex 4-16x50 FFP? How does it compare to the much more pricey NF 3.5-15x50? Thanks Not sure you can compare it to the NXS SFP models. Against the F1, the NF is the better scope. It's also more then twice the cost of a PST. |
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I sold my 2.5-10x32 NXS Nightforce to by this new 2.5-10x32 FFP Vortex Viper PST.......did I make the right decision......YEP.
I picked up....... - FFP - Ocular focus - Adjustable parallax - Exposed turrets Even if you argue that I went down in glass quality ....(which I don't believe)..... It will have only been slightly. And, with the list of features I picked up, it was well worth the trade for loosing that implied glass quality. Having owned both.....I am very glad with my decision. Never mind the fact that I actually made about $300-$400 in my swapping the NF for the PST. |
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Hey guys, Anyone got the Vortex 4-16x50 FFP? How does it compare to the much more pricey NF 3.5-15x50? Thanks Not sure you can compare it to the NXS SFP models. Against the F1, the NF is the better scope. It's also more then twice the cost of a PST. Yea that was my question, is the NF FFP really worth $1500 more? |
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Hey guys, Anyone got the Vortex 4-16x50 FFP? How does it compare to the much more pricey NF 3.5-15x50? Thanks Not sure you can compare it to the NXS SFP models. Against the F1, the NF is the better scope. It's also more then twice the cost of a PST. Yea that was my question, is the NF FFP really worth $1500 more? It's really a matter of opinion. If I was in Afghanistan I would feel more comfortable with the NF. For civilian or LE use, I would feel fine with the PST. There is no doubt, at least in my mind, that NF makes a better scope. I reckon it really boils down to what your needs are. If money is not a issue, I would get the F1. IMO, the Vortex PST line, is the best value in the optic industry at this time. Vortex is one of the only things, I can think of(in these days), where you actually get what you pay for. Just my thoughts. As far as the 2.5-10x32mm goes, I went with the PST over NF. Cost wasn't the issue. |
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Yea I totally "breezed" over the F1 comment. I concur that the F1 is a superior optic
than the PST 4-16. My Nightforce was an entry level NF without zero stops or exposed turrets.....or FFP. All 3 of which I am loving on my new PST. But when you put the F1 in the comparison......things change......including the price tag. |
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