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Posted: 7/13/2011 8:37:11 AM EST
Hi all,

I will be getting a rifle soon and want to get either an Aimpoint or an EoTech. Truth be told I only want one of those for fun. The longest outdoor range near me is a 200 yard range. I would like to do some long range shooting and am wondering about my different optic choices. Is a red dot good out to 200 yards ? If it is, is it as good as a quality scope ? What I envision is that I would use a red dot when at the indoor range (about 50 yards) and use a scope when at the outdoor (200 yard) range. Or am I way off ?

Thanks,

bluesticky
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Posted: 7/13/2011 8:42:02 AM EST
Depends on your eyesight.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 8:46:21 AM EST
Well that is something I never even considered.

Last trip to the eye doctor put me at 20/15 with my contacts in. Not sure what it is w/o my contacts, but I always have them in when shooting.

Thanks,

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Posted: 7/13/2011 8:54:04 AM EST
I would call my eyesight good, but not perfect. I have a hard time seeing details at large distances and I don't have glasses. I can just see 3" bright orange circles at 50 yards through my aimpoint. I have the PRO which doesn't have the clearest glass out of all the aimpoints. I can see and hit a 8" circle at 100 yards with my red dot, but I doubt I would be able to see anything less then a man size target at 200 yards. So I would need a magnifier or scope. Oddly enough I can see better with irons then I can with my reddot, I think the rear aperture actually helps me focus


Also if you have astigmatism an eotech will be worthless, a 2moa aimpoint will still work though.

You could get a 1-4x DMR like scope, or an aimpoint with a 3-5x magnifier. I have a cheap Primary arms magnifier I keep in my range bag if I want to shoot groups at 100 yards.

If you put a 3-9x scope or something like that on your AR, its pretty much worthless up close or as anything other than a range toy or hunting IMHO.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 9:39:29 AM EST
I use a 6 inch steel plate at 200 yards all the time with a 2 moa aimpoint and usually can hit it every time from the bench. Its a good distance because the 50/200 yard zero is great for a 5.56 and aimpoint.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 9:45:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluesticky:
Well that is something I never even considered.

Last trip to the eye doctor put me at 20/15 with my contacts in. Not sure what it is w/o my contacts, but I always have them in when shooting.

Thanks,

bluesticky


You will be fine with the RDS (red dot sight). There isn't much precision shooting to do at 200 yards and a magnified optic is largely useless closer in. If you zero at 50 yards your PBZ (point blank zero, defined by the approximate distance the projectile will fall or rise below and above your line of sight) will be+ /- about two inches when shooting at 200 yards and your close in shooting will be quite fast relative to what you will accomplish with a scope.

So, it depends on what you want to do, but my opinion is that if you don't want to splurge for a high end barrel and capable optic or won't be shooting at significantly longer distances you should go with the EOTech or Aimpoint. I know a metric shit ton of guys who use the EOTech professionally and none have issues. As for choosing between the two I consider it to be a case of six of one, half-dozen of another. Your eyesight shouldn't be a problem.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 9:46:30 AM EST
have you ever used a eotech or aimpoint? if not you should try and see both of them in person to make a decision and to make sure you do not have astigmatism and take a loss. you should look at a 1-4x scope like vortex pst or hs or swfa ss you get the best of both worlds.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 9:55:55 AM EST
No, I have unforunately not looked through either of them. I am going to go to the next gun show that comes around as that will be the only place I'll be able to look through either of these.

Thank you all for the helpful information. I'll be checking out both traditional and RDS optics and this information has given me some things to think about.

good day,

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Posted: 7/13/2011 10:13:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2011 10:46:32 AM EST by oldguy870]
People automatically think the real advantage of a scope is for long distance shooting. This is not necessarily the case.

The big advantage with magnification is that it allows you to get a better sight picture. This is especially valuable in dawn/dusk conditions or when your target blends into the background well. It is easy to have these problems even at 25-100 yards.

I started off coyote hunting with my Aimpoint M3s and M4s. Then, it became more clear that scopes are not just for long shots.

SCOPE = BETTER SIGHT PICTURE AT ALL RANGES

P.S. All this applies to tactical situations too.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 10:39:31 AM EST
Aimpoint or RDS are great for what they are for. Like stated above, many have no problems hitting their intended target steady from a bench at 200 yards.

1-4 variable magnification could be considered a step above because it can do both close and more accurate & faster at further distances.

I have a Trijicon ACOG TA11 and I absolutely love it. It has 3.5x fixed magnification and is generally refered to as a 'non precision' optic.



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Posted: 7/13/2011 11:14:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
People automatically think the real advantage of a scope is for long distance shooting. This is not necessarily the case.

The big advantage with magnification is that it allows you to get a better sight picture. This is especially valuable in dawn/dusk conditions or when your target blends into the background well. It is easy to have these problems even at 25-100 yards.

I started off coyote hunting with my Aimpoint M3s and M4s. Then, it became more clear that scopes are not just for long shots.

SCOPE = BETTER SIGHT PICTURE AT ALL RANGES

P.S. All this applies to tactical situations too.


Mangnfication brings with it reduced light transmission and eye relief issues not present in the RDS. There's also parallax depending on the optic and its attributes. In terms of a tactical situation, FOV (field of view) becomes a limitation with a magnified optic and it's a pretty big deal in a fast paced environment, especially up close. Magnified optics may or may not enhance sight picture to your liking depending on circumstances.

As before, it depends on what you want to do. I run RDS on most of my short guns and am not challenged by 3 MOA steel at 300 meters and have found it relatively easy to hit Minute of Thorax at 400 meters, though target identification becomes a factor even if sight picture doesn't. In that case a 1-3x or 1-4x variable's nice, but not as nice up close as the RDS. It's all about your application and what will achieve success according to your criteria. Personally, I've found zero magnification not to be a problem in one context and 9x to be not enough magnification in another. So, decide what you want from the rifle and choose your poison accordingly. It will have strengths and weaknesses in any case and you have to decide which are more important.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 11:18:41 AM EST
Up close, even Aimpoints have parallax issues. A TA11 actually gives you better light transmission than a RDS. That is why the sight picture is superior. The optics gather light that a 1x RDS can't.

They all do have pros and cons. However, light transmission is not a con for a magnified optic.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 11:37:28 AM EST
Just remember that magnification doesn't help you aim better, it only helps you SEE better. The fundamentals are still going to be very important either way.

If you will never shoot further than 200 yards, I'd probably recommend just pick up a magnifier for your red dot. No need to change zero. No need to remove the red dot optic. Just add the magnifier and remove it (or flip-it-to-side, if you have that kind of mount) when you don't want the magnification.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 11:45:33 AM EST
To easy Scope.

no question.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 11:53:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2011 11:53:34 AM EST by oldguy870]
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
Just remember that magnification doesn't help you aim better, it only helps you SEE better. The fundamentals are still going to be very important either way.

If you will never shoot further than 200 yards, I'd probably recommend just pick up a magnifier for your red dot. No need to change zero. No need to remove the red dot optic. Just add the magnifier and remove it (or flip-it-to-side, if you have that kind of mount) when you don't want the magnification.


My point is that in low light conditions or conditions that obscure your target (camo/terrain) scopes help you to see better at all ranges. You don't have to be at 200+ yards to have a problem getting a good sight picture.

Yes. Scopes help you see better and this equates to more hits on target because it is hard to hit what you can't see.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:30:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Up close, even Aimpoints have parallax issues. A TA11 actually gives you better light transmission than a RDS. That is why the sight picture is superior. The optics gather light that a 1x RDS can't.

They all do have pros and cons. However, light transmission is not a con for a magnified optic.


Up close, parallax isn't much of an issue. I've had apparent parallax issues with RDS when shooting occluded at 100 yards and farther, but not up close. As for light transmission, magnification makes a big difference and I don't think any of the ACOGs I have used transmitted any more light than a straight piece of glass, but they sure did have eye relief requirements. Once you have shot enough with NV there is no denying that magnification gust light transmission significantly.

Sight picture is more negotiable in some situations than others. If I want to hold one and a heavy 3/4 mil on a target at 800m I want a precise hold to make my previous math worthwhile and to set myself up for reengagement. If I am simply going from 3 meter shots inside to a 200 meter shot down the road favors and holds based on anatomy will be plenty good and I can do that all day without magnification.

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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:36:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
Just remember that magnification doesn't help you aim better, it only helps you SEE better. The fundamentals are still going to be very important either way.

If you will never shoot further than 200 yards, I'd probably recommend just pick up a magnifier for your red dot. No need to change zero. No need to remove the red dot optic. Just add the magnifier and remove it (or flip-it-to-side, if you have that kind of mount) when you don't want the magnification.


My point is that in low light conditions or conditions that obscure your target (camo/terrain) scopes help you to see better at all ranges. You don't have to be at 200+ yards to have a problem getting a good sight picture.

Yes. Scopes help you see better and this equates to more hits on target because it is hard to hit what you can't see.


Sure, if you're shooting groups or just working off a bench. And seeing better doesn't always mean the same thing in every situation. I think of target detection and identification when I consider your point more than I think of sight picture. Just having the magnification doesn't help burning through foliage or mirage in every case, just sometimes.

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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:38:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By morrisammo_1:
To easy Scope.

no question.


Why is there no question, though?
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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:42:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2011 12:43:38 PM EST by parabellum_9x19]

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By morrisammo_1:
To easy Scope.

no question.


Why is there no question, though?

4moa dot is 8" wide at 200...loses for precision shooting...but a 2moa dot would be fine if your eyes are good. The question is if you are trying for "minute of torso" or trying to constrain your group sizes.

I think there IS a question for sure.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 12:55:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By parabellum_9x19:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By morrisammo_1:
To easy Scope.

no question.


Why is there no question, though?

4moa dot is 8" wide at 200...loses for precision shooting...but a 2moa dot would be fine if your eyes are good. The question is if you are trying for "minute of torso" or trying to constrain your group sizes.

I think there IS a question for sure.


My point, exactly. It goes back to what I said before about knowing just what you want to do and how well you want to do it in various situations. There is definitely a question, I agree.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:05:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Up close, even Aimpoints have parallax issues. A TA11 actually gives you better light transmission than a RDS. That is why the sight picture is superior. The optics gather light that a 1x RDS can't.

They all do have pros and cons. However, light transmission is not a con for a magnified optic.


Up close, parallax isn't much of an issue. I've had apparent parallax issues with RDS when shooting occluded at 100 yards and farther, but not up close. As for light transmission, magnification makes a big difference and I don't think any of the ACOGs I have used transmitted any more light than a straight piece of glass, but they sure did have eye relief requirements. Once you have shot enough with NV there is no denying that magnification gust light transmission significantly.

Sight picture is more negotiable in some situations than others. If I want to hold one and a heavy 3/4 mil on a target at 800m I want a precise hold to make my previous math worthwhile and to set myself up for reengagement. If I am simply going from 3 meter shots inside to a 200 meter shot down the road favors and holds based on anatomy will be plenty good and I can do that all day without magnification.


According to the documentation for the M68 CCO, Aimpoints have almost zero parallax (it's physically impossible to have absolutely zero) beyond 50 meters. Within 50 meters, it can cause a point of aim/point of impact shift up to an inch or two. Thankfully, within 50 meters an inch or two isn't enough to make you miss a COM shot.

Apologies but my vocabulary is failing me at the moment, what's "occluded" mean?

Anyway, I pretty much agree with you. Eye relief can be a pain. So is limiting your field of view. It's all about the right tool for the job.

Obviously you won't be able to see a target to hit it very well at 1000 meters with no magnification.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:13:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Up close, even Aimpoints have parallax issues. A TA11 actually gives you better light transmission than a RDS. That is why the sight picture is superior. The optics gather light that a 1x RDS can't.

They all do have pros and cons. However, light transmission is not a con for a magnified optic.


Up close, parallax isn't much of an issue. I've had apparent parallax issues with RDS when shooting occluded at 100 yards and farther, but not up close. As for light transmission, magnification makes a big difference and I don't think any of the ACOGs I have used transmitted any more light than a straight piece of glass, but they sure did have eye relief requirements. Once you have shot enough with NV there is no denying that magnification gust light transmission significantly.

Sight picture is more negotiable in some situations than others. If I want to hold one and a heavy 3/4 mil on a target at 800m I want a precise hold to make my previous math worthwhile and to set myself up for reengagement. If I am simply going from 3 meter shots inside to a 200 meter shot down the road favors and holds based on anatomy will be plenty good and I can do that all day without magnification.


According to the documentation for the M68 CCO, Aimpoints have almost zero parallax (it's physically impossible to have absolutely zero) beyond 50 meters. Within 50 meters, it can cause a point of aim/point of impact shift up to an inch or two. Thankfully, within 50 meters an inch or two isn't enough to make you miss a COM shot.

Apologies but my vocabulary is failing me at the moment, what's "occluded" mean?

Anyway, I pretty much agree with you. Eye relief can be a pain. So is limiting your field of view. It's all about the right tool for the job.

Obviously you won't be able to see a target to hit it very well at 1000 meters with no magnification.


Occluded in this case refers to shooting with the front scope cover in place with both eyes open, seeing the target with your weak eye and the red dot with your dominant eye. I have experienced minor POI shifts doing this and I have heard rumors that the M68 is not entirely parallax free. I apologize for the quote tree, but my only internet this month is on the phone.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:26:28 PM EST
"I don't think any of the ACOGs I have used transmitted any more light than a straight piece of glass..."

It is a fact that magnified optics gather light. You need to do some serious homework. Go take a pair of 7x50 binoculars out tonight and report back concerning how much better you can see in the dark.

This is Scope 101.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:36:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
"I don't think any of the ACOGs I have used transmitted any more light than a straight piece of glass..."

It is a fact that magnified optics gather light. You need to do some serious homework. Go take a pair of 7x50 binoculars out tonight and report back concerning how much better you can see in the dark.

This is Scope 101.


I don't know if you have followed, but I have done more than homework. Note that light transmission through optics is measured in percentages below 100%. Lens quality and coatings help with light transmission, but they don't gather anything and magnification reduces this, as evidenced by shooting with magnified optics through inline night vision for most of a career.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 1:46:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2011 1:47:26 PM EST by oldguy870]
You have no idea what you are talking about. If you don't understand that a magnified optic will help you see better in the dark, you have no business posting on an optics board.

You need to go away.
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Posted: 7/13/2011 2:03:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
You have no idea what you are talking about. If you don't understand that a magnified optic will help you see better in the dark, you have no business posting on an optics board.

You need to go away.


Now, that's funny. It's also funny that when doing an offset infil to a target at night I don't whip out a pair of binos to see better, nor do I dial up the magnification on my optic when I'm trying to employ a PVS-26 with 4% illum. It's laughable that I have had some trouble finding the crosshairs for a sight picture at times around dusk and dawn and that my little red dot can be hung out there in low light conditions and dark buildings without hindering my ability to see or rendering my PVS-14s useless.

Perhaps you could detail the mechanism through which optics "gather" light, intensifying it beyond the ambient level?
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Posted: 7/13/2011 4:08:28 PM EST
Again, thank you all. This was more than I could have hoped for and has made me realize there is a LOT I had not thought about.

As for my wants, which to be honest I didn't even know myself before posting, that would be to create small groupings on a target at ~200 yards.

Thanks,

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Posted: 7/13/2011 5:56:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By bluesticky:
Again, thank you all. This was more than I could have hoped for and has made me realize there is a LOT I had not thought about.

As for my wants, which to be honest I didn't even know myself before posting, that would be to create small groupings on a target at ~200 yards.

Thanks,

bluesticky


Ok, most excellent. When you were considering a first AR and RDS I assumed you were looking at buying a rack grade shooter and going with cheap ammunition off the shelf. For what it's worth, if you are looking at this goal you need to put a good deal of thought into the rifle, especially the barrel. For the distances you shoot a high end optic with mil rad adjustments and mil dots or such isn't really in order, but good glass is helpful in any case. So, a good scope is obviously something you should prefer. That and good ammunition.

Sorry the thread got so far from your initial query.

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Posted: 7/13/2011 6:50:36 PM EST
No apology necessary.

I actually find that when these things go astray is when I learn the most. Many times I don't know enough to ask the proper questions.

Thanks,

bluesticky
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Posted: 7/14/2011 4:24:42 PM EST
I went economical Red Dot.. (think of a Primary Arms on Quick Detach).. then get a economical 4x or 6x fixed power (or variable) and also a Quick Detach rings or a mount for that..

http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/epsgunner/OracleScoped.jpg

thats what I did..

I can go from RDS to 6x scope in like a minute or so..
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Posted: 7/15/2011 9:59:49 PM EST
I just saw this today
http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/406692/211028314-475804127/LOCKING-TURRET-Red-green-illuminated-mil-dot-reticle-FLIP-UP-LENS-COVER-8-32x50-Rifle-Scope.html.
Im thinking of grabbing one, Just wondered what you guys thought about it.
I checked out the link it is free shipping
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:15:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2011 12:16:46 AM EST by Blacktide]
If you're only concerned with hitting static large targets at 200 than a red dot should work. If you're taking marksmanship seriously, you might need a scope.

Come on, the guy isn't going to be doing special operations, he wants a scope for his range gun. Why get a red dot if it's not for combat or close up competition? What could be gained aside from feeling like a cool guy?
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Posted: 7/16/2011 1:06:04 AM EST
Do the Arfcom thing, get both

A decent low variable mag. compact scope will serve your precision needs out to 200yds (doesn't need to be ridiculously expensive), and a mini RDS will do it for you at closer ranges. Mount it at 1 o'clock on the receiver (assuming right handed) and it will make your rifle a very flexible and fun shooting tool.
There's a box?
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Posted: 7/16/2011 3:17:10 AM EST
I cant see small target past 100yrd even with my glasses. If u go the red do direction, do what i do and get a 3x magnifier
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Posted: 7/16/2011 3:50:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By hunting406692:
I just saw this today
http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/406692/211028314-475804127/LOCKING-TURRET-Red-green-illuminated-mil-dot-reticle-FLIP-UP-LENS-COVER-8-32x50-Rifle-Scope.html.
Im thinking of grabbing one, Just wondered what you guys thought about it.
I checked out the link it is free shipping


I wouldn't go CHEAP and variable... I also would not order from China directly.

That scope reminds me of a BSA..

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Posted: 7/16/2011 4:47:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Blacktide:
If you're only concerned with hitting static large targets at 200 than a red dot should work. If you're taking marksmanship seriously, you might need a scope.

Come on, the guy isn't going to be doing special operations, he wants a scope for his range gun. Why get a red dot if it's not for combat or close up competition? What could be gained aside from feeling like a cool guy?


I agree to a certain point. I find a red dot to be the most useful optic an average shooter can have if you rwant a general purpose carbine.
There reliable
Easy to use
provides acceptable accuracy (Good if your average, better if your not)
Provides low light capability
provides speed

As to taking marksmanship seriously.. here's where you and I differ... If you equate a scope to serious marksmanship.. Most shooters equate scopes to skill, and the two could not be farther apart... scopes and magnification don't help you shoot better and have nothing to do with the fundamentals. they just help you see better.

A good shooter with a red dot who has taken marksmanship "Seriously" is going to hand some one their ass who is using a scope and has no skill.

I don't run magnified scopes on my AR's because I do not find them necessary and my experiences have shown me that I am best served with a red dot because they provide me with many more benefits that a magnified optic.
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Posted: 7/16/2011 1:45:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By Blacktide:
If you're only concerned with hitting static large targets at 200 than a red dot should work. If you're taking marksmanship seriously, you might need a scope.

Come on, the guy isn't going to be doing special operations, he wants a scope for his range gun. Why get a red dot if it's not for combat or close up competition? What could be gained aside from feeling like a cool guy?


I agree to a certain point. I find a red dot to be the most useful optic an average shooter can have if you rwant a general purpose carbine.
There reliable
Easy to use
provides acceptable accuracy (Good if your average, better if your not)
Provides low light capability
provides speed

As to taking marksmanship seriously.. here's where you and I differ... If you equate a scope to serious marksmanship.. Most shooters equate scopes to skill, and the two could not be farther apart... scopes and magnification don't help you shoot better and have nothing to do with the fundamentals. they just help you see better.

A good shooter with a red dot who has taken marksmanship "Seriously" is going to hand some one their ass who is using a scope and has no skill.

I don't run magnified scopes on my AR's because I do not find them necessary and my experiences have shown me that I am best served with a red dot because they provide me with many more benefits that a magnified optic.


I wouldn't say that it isn't possible to take marksmanship seriously with a red dot, but if it's just a range gun I do believe it will limit your abilities depending on your style of shooting. Don't get me wrong, I love red dots and have owned all of the newer aimpoints including the M4 and T1 and an eotech 553. They're great, but for target shooting at 100+ they're lacking. Especially if you're trying to hit small targets like clay pigeons and not just large sillouetts.
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Posted: 7/16/2011 2:04:02 PM EST
I can just tag the 4" clays at 100 yards with my 3MOA red-dot..

sometimes 1 shot, sometimes 3 shots.. I think with a 2MOA I could do better..

with a scope its CAKE at 100 and even 200 I can tag the 3" steel targets I got..

nothing substitutes for practice and trigger time..

Charles
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