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MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/26/2010 4:11:37 PM
[Last Edit: 6/15/2011 4:25:44 PM by MakoDefense]
We are getting a lot of questions in our Mepro MOR thread about the Mepro M21, so I will post info on the M21 here.
Be sure to check our industry forum for our ARFCOM coupon code!



Here is the requested reticle info:

The bullseye reticle is the standard reticle available in the US. This is the best reticle for most applications. The triangle and X reticles are available only by special order, as are the standard 4.5 and 5.5 MOA dot reticles (not shown). Update: All reticles are now stocked in the US! (9 MOA triangle is discontinued.) I need to do some additional measurements and I will post some more info on the bullseye reticle.



If dealers or distributors order quantities of the M21 sights with the optional reticles, you may see them in stock in the US. Otherwise, most dealers carry the bullseye reticle. The advantage of the bullseye reticle is that it is extremely fast in close quarters - your eye picks it up very quickly and positively, but it does not obscure targets when taking long-range shots. The other advantage is that with a passively lit reticle, it is slower to pick up a tiny dot on a bright day in a snowy environment, while the circle in the bullseye reticle immediately catches the eye. A squad leader I knew in Iraq had a fiber-optic sight made by another manufacturer, and it could not be used on bright days because the tiny whitish/yellowish dot could not be seen without really looking for it - not good when you need to shoot quickly.


Israeli Chief of Staff firing his Tavor with Mepro M21 sight.


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FateSaint
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:26:18 PM
pricing on this?
VictorUnit
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Posted: 10/27/2010 1:22:56 AM
awesome ! thanks––

good dimensions on that circle / dot

the eotech with a 65 moa circle is

9 moa inside frames a head nicely.




they are about $500
Tomac
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Posted: 10/27/2010 8:35:25 AM
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 8:40:41 AM by Tomac]
What sort of cowitness does the mount provide and how susceptible is the M21 to reticle washout? Thx!...
Tomac
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VictorUnit
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Posted: 10/27/2010 1:16:14 PM
what are the mounting options?
MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/27/2010 3:04:40 PM
[Last Edit: 6/15/2011 4:21:04 PM by MakoDefense]
Co-witness is lower third. For those who are familiar with EOTechs, you will notice that the reticle follows the eye within the aperture, like the EOTech. This means that unlike many red dot sights, the reticle will tend to be aligned with the iron sights when you look through them, even though they are in the lower third.

The standard mount is a sturdy quick-detach mount that is adjustable for tension designed for MIL-SPEC-1913 (Picatinny) rails. Although rails are supposed to be built to spec, there can often be a lot of variation between rails, although most quality AR uppers are pretty much the same. The tension adjustment allows the user to adjust the mount to fit as tightly as he likes, to the point that it would require tools to get enough leverage to release the sights. This is very handy for applications such as mounting on the upper handguard rail on an AK-47 or SKS, etc. I have seen Chinese-made rails on AKs that were so undersized that a mount that fits an AR upper perfectly can flop from side to side on the AK rail. With the M21, the mount can be tightened down to fit that rail.



The QD mount is standard on the M21 in the US. There are other mounts that are designed for specific applications, such as the mount for the Tavor.

The M21 has several features to prevent washout. The first is the design of the reticle. It is a 4.5 MOA dot surrounded by a heavy broken circle. In situations in which lighting conditions make the reticle appear fainter than normal, the circle still quickly catches your eye, where a small dot may be harder to find. In situations in which the small dot in the MOR is hard to find without using the battery power, for example, the reticle in the M21 can easily be discerned.

Secondly, the lens is slightly tinted with a bluish tint. This is by design, as it creates a contrast with the orange reticle. In other words, an orange target area that the reticle might disappear against is tinted by the lens so that the reticle still contrasts.

The reticle is also quite orange in colour, unlike the very pale reticles in some other systems that are powered by fiber optic and tritium.

The fiber optic tubes are located not only on the top and sides of the sight, but in a large area on the front. This helps provide enough illumination in situations such as firing from a dark room out into sunlight.

This morning, with everything dusk and from inside a dimly lit room, but with the sky bright white from the sun preparing to break over the mountains, I found that I could see the reticle very well against everything outside, including white trim on a shed, but the reticle disappeared against the bright sky. Now the sun just came over the mountains, the sky turned blue, and I can see the reticle well against the blue sky, but it is faint against the parts of the white shed that are in direct sunlight. If I step outside, the reticle becomes much brighter, even though I am still in a shadow, and I can pick it up easily anywhere.

In a totally dark room the reticle is very bright. I can then illuminate a SureFire G2 or a Speedlight, and on an off-white wall (I tried walls that are slightly green, slightly yellow, or slightly tan) I can easily see the reticle against the center of the beam, standing 8' to 10' from the wall. The reticle is not bright, but easily visible. When the reticle is moved just out of the center, but still in the beam, it is pretty bright, and looks bright against the center of the beam if the beam is placed on anything darker than the off-white walls. On a matte finished bright white wall, the reticle is visible in the center of the beam, but is quite faint. Against a reflective (gloss white) wall, the reticle can be seen in the sides of the beam, but disappears in the center.

In a slightly less than normally lit room, I can aim the reticle at an incandescent light bulb and the reticle totally disappears (and my eye hurts). From the same position, I can aim it at a florescent bulb with a bright white plastic cover (the Kind that transmits light, but that you can't see through - sort of frosted), and I can easily see the reticle against it.

I have not seen a situation yet that I thought the M21 would not work in. If There was a really strange circumstance, if I needed to shoot out a light, for instance, I would just use the BUIS, although since the reticle can be seen until it is actually centered on the light, I could be pretty sure of hitting it with the M21 anyway. The most likely scenario would be to be very far back in a dark room aiming out a small window or loophole into bright sunlight in a snowy environment. I have tested this, and the reticle is very faint against the snow, but can be seen. This is not a problem for me, since this type of shooting would be deliberate and there would be time to identify and aim the reticle carefully. Once again iron sights can be used as well.
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Fooboy
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Posted: 10/27/2010 3:19:48 PM
Interesting.

Couple questions:
- weight with ar15 mount?
- any sensitivity to water / waterproof?
- can you provide pics of mount and pics of actual reticle?
- what is housing made of? How tough are they?
- price?
homeyclaus
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Posted: 10/27/2010 3:23:38 PM
What is the height of the reticule above the rail?

I have a desired application where the backup sights are much closer to the rail than on an AR.
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MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/27/2010 3:47:50 PM
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 3:49:28 PM by MakoDefense]

Originally Posted By homeyclaus:
What is the height of the reticule above the rail?

I have a desired application where the backup sights are much closer to the rail than on an AR.
Center of the aperture is 1.6" above the top of the rail. On an AR, the BIUS co-witness low in the aperture. If your sights are much lower than the sights on an AR, it won't c-owitness. On rifles like AKs and vz.58s, by design of the rifle no optic will co-witness with factory sights. Rifles HK G3s and MP5s could possibly co-witness with certain compact optics that sit very low, but I don't see a way for them to co-witness with the M21. On these weapons, the quick-release mount is what will allow the use of iron sights.

With the standard mount on the M21, the rear sight will need to be at least 1.3" above the rail to work.

If I know your exact application, I may be able to offer a mount solution.

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MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/27/2010 4:06:15 PM
[Last Edit: 11/1/2010 3:05:07 PM by MakoDefense]

Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Interesting.

Couple questions:
- weight with ar15 mount?
- any sensitivity to water / waterproof?
- can you provide pics of mount and pics of actual reticle?
- what is housing made of? How tough are they?
- price?

Weight with quick-detach mount: 13 oz. (same weight as EOTech 553, for reference)

The M21 has no sensitivity to water. It has no batteries, so switches, and no electronics. There is nothing that can be harmed by water. It also functions when temperatures are too low for batteries to work well.

The housing is heavy aluminum. The sight is built like a tank. This is why the M21, with no batteries or electrical components, weighs as much as the slightly larger EOTech with it's batteries.

Suggested retail price is $563.25. Actual price from dealers will vary.

Here is a reticle picture. I have some better photos somewhere - I will find them and post them.


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homeyclaus
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Posted: 10/27/2010 4:10:26 PM
Thanks for the quick reply, no wonder you people have so much of my money already.

I am looking for something better than an EOTech for a FS2000 carbine, and a Beretta CX4 Storm carbine. For some reason, they seem to have the same, or at least very, very close, line-of-sight over rail measurements. My eyeball guesses this to be something like 15mm or 5/8" which is quite low, but higher than AK-type or M14-type sights.
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Merkava
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Posted: 10/27/2010 8:03:11 PM
I picked up a used one at Dallas gunshow last spring for one of my IDF clones. It's pretty nice. Have not had a chance to use it much yet.



It has the triangle recticle.

Tomac
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Posted: 10/27/2010 10:53:50 PM
Thanks for the quick & informative replies! A couple of final questions, are there other mount options besides the QD and if I understand correctly, the QD mount provides a 1/3 cowitness? Thx again!...
Tomac
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VictorUnit
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Posted: 10/28/2010 1:17:53 AM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2010 1:57:23 AM by VictorUnit]
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Thanks for the quick & informative replies! A couple of final questions, are there other mount options besides the QD and if I understand correctly, the QD mount provides a 1/3 cowitness? Thx again!...
Tomac


me too ––I want to know All mounting options.

this needs more reticle pics

that triangle looks very well defined!
-and bright!
MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/28/2010 3:05:50 AM
[Last Edit: 2/20/2011 9:56:48 PM by MakoDefense]
Here are a couple more reticle pictures. The first is the bullseye reticle taken from inside a building aiming out a window on a sunny day in Arizona. The second is a photo with no ambient light (total darkness).





Here are some of the available mounts. As you can see, the QR mount is by far the best for most purposes.

Carry Handle Adapter, Insus Adapter, Picatinny adapter, Quick-release mount.


I will take more photos of the QR mount in the next few days.
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Tomac
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:06:29 PM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2010 5:48:34 PM by Tomac]
Okay, someone give me the final nudge:
Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21?
Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle?
Tomac
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z0mbieHK
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:15:59 PM
Do these work with any type of magnifier?
VictorUnit
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:54:56 PM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2010 6:20:18 PM by VictorUnit]
meprolight does have a magnifier for the m21 - called mx3.


i looked at the x reticle [online only]––it seemed faint because the lines are thin.


VIDEO

personalsecurityzone.com


triangle or bullseye for me.
VictorUnit
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:59:33 PM
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Okay, someone give me the final nudge:
Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21?
Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle?
Tomac


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MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/28/2010 8:50:07 PM

Originally Posted By Tomac:
Okay, someone give me the final nudge:
Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21?
Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle?
Tomac

You are looking at this all wrong - never give up your Aimpoints. Just put M21's in their place, and then buy MORE weapons to mount the homeless Aimpoints on! Then get more Aimpoints . . . . this cycle could go on forever!

All seriousness aside, you really can't have to many firearms . . .


I can give you the advantages of the M21, but will not really contrast it specifically with the Aimpoint, since I don't want to talk about another companies' products in any way that may seem unfavorable (with the exception of clearly unethical companies or knock-off products). Additionally, I have used Aimpoints more than any other reflex optic due to training and combat use, and I really like them, though I have probably now used the M21 almost as much, since much of my time in combat was with a sniper scope.

The advantages to the M21:
• You won't bump a switch and run the battery dead - there is no battery.
• You won't raise your weapon on a target and find the battery is dead - there is no battery.
• You won't have problems with batteries draining quickly or providing too little power in very cold weather - there is no battery.
• The reticle is always on - you won't bump a switch and end up raising a weapon to fire only to find out that the reticle is turned off.
We had a guy in one of our courses recently firing a drill that ended with a transition from carbine to pistol, back to carbine after reload, and fire on a moving threat/hostage target. Since the target was moving during reload, there was very little time to engage. During transition to pistol and moving with the pistol, the switch on his sight was bumped, and he had no reticle when he engaged the last target, nor time to turn the reticle on.
• Brightness of the tritium is warranted for twice as long as Trijicon and other optics.
• Reticle automatically adjust to the ambient light - moving from bright sunlight to a dim room does not leave you with a reticle that is too bright, and moving the other way does not leave you with one that is too dim - you never need to adjust it.
• Even if the tritium illumination was somehow lost, the fiber optic illumination will work in almost any light other than total darkness, when the tritium would be required for night vision use. If there is enough light to see the target clearly, the fiber optic would usually give you enough illumination to see the optic. If the Tritium illumination is lost or dim, it can be replaced at the factory.
• The sight is very simple and very robust - it is very difficult to break it.
• The QD mount is very sturdy, and can be adjusted to fit very tightly. At normal adjustment, it can be released with a thumb, but fits tightly and gives a repeatable zero. If the mount is tightened further, the release levers have to be released by prying with a lever, or loosening the adjustment.
• The bullseye reticle is very fast at close range, while precise at longer ranges, and can be used to determine range.

What I love about it: It is always on, and always right - I never have to think about it.
By the way, I am always honest in my opinions of our products. If I really like something, I will say so. If I don't, I will say so as well. Most of our products I like, a couple I am not so hot about - some just because I don't have a good use for them, while others really have a need for them. The M21 is one of those products that I really like.

The X reticle vs. the Bullseye

The X reticle is a good reticle. It leaves the point of aim clear, since it is bracketed in the center of the X. The Bullseye reticle was chosen as the standard reticle for import into the US because it works better in the most challenging light conditions, is faster in CQB, and is easier to use for determining range.

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brazos609
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Posted: 10/28/2010 8:51:38 PM
Could you double check the subtensions of the ring and dot reticle, the listed dimensions have to be off. If the inside diameter of the ring is 9 MOA and the outside diameter is 15 MOA, there is no way the dot can be 4.5 MOA. In both the diagram and the actual recicle pics the dot is smaller in diameter than the thickness of the ring and the thickness of the ring should be 3 MOA.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 8:57:13 PM
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions.
Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness.
Tomac
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MakoDefense
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Posted: 10/28/2010 9:07:21 PM

Originally Posted By z0mbieHK:
Do these work with any type of magnifier?

The only way I can currently answer this question is to say that I don't know of any magnifiers that don't work with the M21. I know they work with the Mako magnifiers and the MX3. I will try to check EOTech and Aimpoint magnifiers in the near future, but I see no reason that they would not work.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 9:14:39 PM

Originally Posted By brazos609:
Could you double check the subtensions of the ring and dot reticle, the listed dimensions have to be off. If the inside diameter of the ring is 9 MOA and the outside diameter is 15 MOA, there is no way the dot can be 4.5 MOA. In both the diagram and the actual recicle pics the dot is smaller in diameter than the thickness of the ring and the thickness of the ring should be 3 MOA.

Yes, I mentioned in a previous post that I was skeptical of some of the dimensions, since I have received conflicting dimensions. I will measure my reticle photos, and also build a known-size target to use to measure the reticle as well. I think maybe the outside diameter of the ring is actually more like 20 MOA.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 9:25:28 PM

Originally Posted By Tomac:
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions.
Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness.
Tomac

Sorry to hear of your wife's illness. We all wish we had unlimited funds, but family is always first (and worth it).

Can't wait to get your feedback on the M21s - I think you'll like them. Which reticles did you get?

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Posted: 10/28/2010 9:33:13 PM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2010 9:36:23 PM by Fooboy]
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions.
Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness.
Tomac


You are my hero.

I have been wrestling with RX30 vs RMR (fiber) for like 2 weeks ... and now this. I really appreciated your insight in my posts about the two trijicon items.

Please post a review with pictures, if you don't mind!

ETA: Also thinking about EOTech. Aimpoints look like commas to me :
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