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Very nicely done- I am quite impressed with the amount of time and detail you've put into reviewing the various scopes, let alone publishing the writing and pics. I would have had a much more difficult time with making an optic purchase decision without this thread, so thank you for that.
Question / request, will you be reviewing any of the 1-8x offerings side by side, such as the Valdada Tactical CQB 1-8, S&B Short Dot 1-8, Premier Reticles 1-8, and the Leupold CQBSS 1-8? |
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Very nicely done- I am quite impressed with the amount of time and detail you've put into reviewing the various scopes, let alone publishing the writing and pics. I would have had a much more difficult time with making an optic purchase decision without this thread, so thank you for that.
Thank you, The reviews have grown to take more and more time as I have added test after test to the battery. I am glad to hear that they are helpful and appreciated. Lately I have been thinking of doing some freelance work in writing to supplement my income. I consider the work I put in to these reviews as worthwhile despite not being paid for them as I gain something of a writing portfolio as a result. Between the reviews I have written and the many contributions of other individuals we have created a resource far more useful than any current gun publication. I think this reflects both on the quality of the ARF community and the lack of much effort on the part of most print publications. The internet is becoming a far more powerful factor in peoples purchasing decisions than print or even hands on experience with the product in retail establishments. Question / request, will you be reviewing any of the 1-8x offerings side by side, such as the Valdada Tactical CQB 1-8, S&B Short Dot 1-8, Premier Reticles 1-8, and the Leupold CQBSS 1-8?
A good question about the 1-8x scopes. The Premier and S&B scopes were first introduced at Shot 2010 along with the Leupold CQBSS a year and change ago now. They were originally both slated to launch Q2 of 2010. They were both delayed several times and ultimately both companies decided to significantly redesign their optics. This is not really surprising since 1-8x scopes are particularly hard to design. If you take a look back at my review of the March 1-10x scope you can see the issues that very high power range scopes have difficulty overcoming. I have been in contact with both S&B and PR throughout the year or so since they first debuted the 1-8x scopes and if I remember correctly both are planning early Q2 launches this year. I will be reviewing both when that happens and both companies have expressed interest in a side by side showdown. That is the current plan. As for the Leupold, I have never heard anything from Leupold and they really don't have much in the way of ties to the ARF community or any of the other online shooting communities I frequent. Evidently their marketing strategy does not include forums. Suffice it to say that I think their marketing strategy and community relations strategy are outdated to say the least. I think that Leupold misses a lot of opportunities and gets chewed up far more than their scopes actually deserve because of their decisions with regard to these avenues. I would be interested to review the CQBSS as well as the new CQ/T with the CM-R2 reticle. I was happy to see them finally add this reticle as an update to the very dated CQ/T scope. The IOR Valdada is 1.5x on the low end which is why it is not included in the table. Many folks, myself included, find it hard to use 1.5x scopes while moving and with both eyes open (though I suppose it would be harder moving with one eye closed.) This thread simply does not address any scopes that do not have a 1x low end though many folks are quite pleased with optics of this class. Hope that answers your questions. I am about halfway through the write up for the GRSC 1-6x and 1/3rd of the way though the Vortex Viper PST. I should have one of them knocked out by the end of the week and perhaps the other over the weekend. A also need to clean up the table a bit and update it with some new models released at shot before my business picks up for the summer. So much to do, so little time. |
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Thanks for the kindly response. I too agree the internet and in particular, good forums are invaluable in researching products. You get a "ground level view" from several types of perspectives, most importantly from those who have taken the time to post helpful info - good or bad - without benefit of monetary gain. I'm surprised at Leupold, but hey that is how big businesses get sometimes. To big and slow for their own good. With a $4k price tag on their CQBSS, you'd think in this economy they would be looking hard for all the press they can get ;p
I will have my Valdata this week and will post my consumer-level impressions. Although it is 1.5 on the low end, I've come across many very positive things about it's use in CQ. Guess I'm about to find out 1st hand. One writeup in particular caught my attention here on the AR15.com site: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=512475 IMHO, since this optic is billed as a CQB/LR variscope among others, it should be included and tested with closest comparables in the list as none of them seem to be true 1x anyway (bit of a misnomer?). If for nothing else, to inform on it's strong and weak points when used 'as advertised'. Again, JMHO.. I'm really looking forward to your run through of the upcoming GRSC 1-6 - Hope it turns out to be all that and more. |
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The table at the beginning of the thread should be updated in a few days I am almost done with the changes.
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Nicely done reviews, thank you. Ed's 1-6x looks extremely promising, I hope it does come to production as expected.
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I like the thought of the Kruger a lot, and I'd be inclined to buy it if there was a price listed for it ANYPLACE on their web site. I downloaded their catalog thinking, hey it's a catalog there will be an order form or something listing their prices. NOTHING! Guess it must be free, there is no price listed. I saw the price of a grand tossed about, but I can't find it anywhere. If it's true to the marketing hype I might pay that. Looks very nice. Oh well, I guess the choice is back to the ACOG. :-)
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I like the thought of the Kruger a lot, and I'd be inclined to buy it if there was a price listed for it ANYPLACE on their web site. I downloaded their catalog thinking, hey it's a catalog there will be an order form or something listing their prices. NOTHING! Guess it must be free, there is no price listed. I saw the price of a grand tossed about, but I can't find it anywhere. If it's true to the marketing hype I might pay that. Looks very nice. Oh well, I guess the choice is back to the ACOG. :-)
I wrote Kruger a while back (last year when they first released some information on this 1 / 2-8x scope.) I never heard anything from them and so really didn't have anything to put in the table. Perhaps I should contact them again this year since I noticed the new pics of the prototypes floating around the web differ greatly from the ones two years ago. Good news regarding the 1-8x scope reviews. Not only will I have an S&B as well as the Premier reticles but I also just spoke to the Leupold tactical marketing rep and the CQBSS will be represented. Hows that? All three budget busting super scopes side by side by side. I will be comparing them to each other as well as to the GRSC 1-6x I was so impressed with a couple months ago. For additional references I will also be adding in a 3.2-17x USO Sn-3 sniper scope to the mix as well as the Zeiss conquest 4.5-14x and, of course, the ever present Leupold CQ/T. Speaking of the CQ/T, I will be reviewing the new CQ/T with the CM-R2 reticle as well. Given that my CQ/T is approaching 10 years old I am interested to see if improvements to the glass, coatings, or illumination have been made in the intervening time. Having written Leupold myself a few times with the goal of getting a bullet drop / rapid ranging reticle into the CQ/T I am very pleased that this has been accomplished. On a side note, for those who don't know near the beginning of last year Leupold formed a new tactical division with dedicated, separate, engineering, project management, and marketing people. I was hopeful at this development since it seemed that Leupold's tactical products had lacked much in the way of innovation for some time. Furthermore, I had never been able to get a hold of anyone at Leupold to arrange reviews or to express my opinions about their lack of direction. This year Leupold introduced the HAMR, a long overdue new reticle for the CQ/T and released the CQBSS. All this in addition to various other tweaks in the tactical portfolio. With a smaller, smarter, more experienced team perhaps they have righted the ship. I, for one was impressed at how easily I was able to get through to the correct individual in order to set up a review. |
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Did you ever get a chance to review the SWFA SS 1-4x24? I looked through the post and couldn't find it. I could have missed it though.
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Did you ever get a chance to review the SWFA SS 1-4x24? I looked through the post and couldn't find it. I could have missed it though.
I have never seen one of the SWFA SS scopes in person. Hokie seems quite taken by them and has written a great deal concerning them. I have been trying to goad him into compiling his musings into a comprehensive review. At some point if I have a spare few hours I may just do it myself as I have done with many other reviews. I'm actually a bit surprised that no one, Hokie or otherwise, has yet posted an SWFA review to this thread. There seems to be no shortage of them about. In any case I have not personally written about the SWFA though I certainly wouldn't be apposed to it. You mentioned in your question that you looked through the whole post. Remember that in the table at the beginning I have indexed the page numbers of the best posts pertaining to each scope. Though the index is almost never completely up to date it will keep you from having to search through all the pages since it can only be out of date concerning the last few. Speaking of out of date. I need to update the table to include some upcoming and recent new scopes including the IOR 1-10x, the Steiner 1-4x, the chimera that Kruger is making, and perhaps others. |
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The correct weight for the Burris 1-4x Tac30 is 13oz (verified on my own electronic scale), not the 17oz listed on the chart.
Tomac |
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"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." - Thomas Jefferson
Snow's Thrall #1! |
I spoke with SWFA recenlty about the SS 1-4X illumination issues. According to them, the illumination issue has been fixed on the new models. Below is what they told me.
"The first shipment used a different circuit board and spring retention system that was missing a foam washer in the battery lid, we sent washers to all that received one with out and installed washers on our existing inventory which was a handful of both T reticle models. The current production does not use the foam washer and uses a secondary spring on the actual board opposite the spring in the battery lid, this applies pressure on both sides of the battery". I ordered one and will give it a go. Other than the initial illumination issue, I have heard nothing but good about them. |
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Any plans for reviewing the Swarovski Z6i series?
Swarovski has not expressed any interest in this to me. It seems unlikely at this time that I will be reviewing this scope. However, several reviews by others are to be found on this thread. Speaking of reviews. I spoke with IOR Valdada today about their upcoming 1-10x. It is looking like a September release on this optic. This is ideal since it will allow me to review it along side of the Leupold CQBSS, S&B 1-8x and Premier Reticles V8. This set of reviews should take place in October. This is the current best guess for the release date of the Premier Reticles at which point all of the scopes in question will be available (the S&B will be released in Aug.) I am looking forward to it. Until then I will just keep updating the table and I may write a proper and exhaustive section on Stadiametric range finding vs. Mil-dot. I have been kicking that around for a while now. |
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Hokie's SWFA SS 1-4x reviews
The following will be an assemblage with some redaction (mostly pics) of reviews of the SWFA scope written by Hokie on Snipers hide. In this excellent review he talks not only about the SS but also about the Leatherwood CMR, Nightforce NXS 1-4 Mildot, Trijicon TR24 German #4, Vortex PST 1-4, Vortex Razor HD 1-4, and S&B 1.1-4 Short Dot. All of these scopes are present for the test and the resulting information is very useful. Links to the original, full posts are as follows. First SS review SS compared to other scopes Here is the first review by Hokie: Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum but thought I'd jump in and say hello. I find subject matter here takes up the majority of my interests! I'm not a professional operator and don't proclaim to know it all. That said I do have a lot of time behind a host of occulars and have formed some educated opinions. As an ice breaker, I thought I'd share a review I just finished with the new HD line of Super Sniper scopes by SWFA. Enjoy! "Technology is not evolving anymore, technology IS evolution!” I was very enthusiastic to write this review. I’ve long been a clap-happy fan of practical optics, versatile carbines, and industry savvy. When SWFA announced the creation of a Super Sniper line of low power variable optics – I was immediately intrigued. Why? For one – SWFA stocks, handles, and sells virtually every optic commercially available. By trade SWFA has a finger on the pulse of the optics industry. They know what works, what doesn’t, what sells, and what the end user wants in a comprehensive scope for the AR platform. SWFA ventured to assess, design, manufacture, and drop such an investment into the mosh pit of competing heavy duty optics. This maneuver is a true testament to their confidence over the Super Sniper line of products. That’s definitely worth noting and inspires some legitimate curiosity as to what makes this scope worth your while. This review is intended to help satisfy that craving. It will also share my personal observations with regards to how this scope compares to others in its class. Lord knows I’ve tried many an optic over the years. So many incredible options, each with its own set of pros and cons. For each scope I’ve tried, I’ve also found a reason to get rid of it. There was always a technical compromise that prevented the low power variable from serving in the capacity of a general purpose optic. By "general purpose" I mean that which is best suited to hit typical silhouettes with no specific range limitations. Before I get too far into this…let me come right out and state that from my perspective the SWFA Super Sniper 1-4 HD is the long overdue culmination of several proven and popular scope designs. They’ve taken the best mojo from other capable scopes placed them all into one. If you are in the market for a high quality do-it-all optic and mount combo under $1,000 for your AR15 – read on. My range time (aka free time) has been very limited this month. Consequently to date I have only fired 200 rounds of M855 behind this scope to establish a 50/200 yard zero and feel out the basics of what the Super Sniper offers. To really dig into the details of its long range accuracy potential past 200 yards I’ll reference a great field review by contributor I have a great deal of respect for: What SWFA has essentially done here is create an exceptionally rugged and high quality 1-4X variable that caters to the standard 50 / 200 yard zero yet offers unparalleled advantages when dialing out to the limits of one’s abilities. A great deal of innovation went into its design. For my review I elected the model with the CQB circle and capped turrets. SWFA also offers this model with an open MIL crosshair and uncapped turrets. My shooting efforts with the 5.56 cartridge rarely exceed 200 yards, so for my perceived shooting venues I wanted a zero that I could set and forget. In the event I want to move to a bipod in the prone position and exercise my carbine’s accuracy potential beyond typical ranges – I could…and with great ease. The way I see it, extended shots past 200 yards are the exception and not the norm. If the opposite were true one would likely opt for a different caliber and / or higher powered scope. To be able to cap the turrets all together is a great benefit. When stacking up the important components of a low power variable optic – a short list of must haves come to mind: 1) Durability 2) Glass 3) Reticle Design 4) Turrets 5) Eye Relief and Exit Pupil 6) Weight 7) Illumination Potential 8) Battery Power 9) Customer Service 10) Affordability These factors all contribute to a scope’s worthiness over a firearm. Those who have spent enough time behind an occular can certainly appreciate how very important such details are. The Super Sniper 1-4 HD capitalizes on each of those factors by incorporating the best resolutions available. To elaborate: Its components are very Spartan and robust. In my view it stands shoulder to shoulder with the level of quality standardized by Nightforce. Rated -50 to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, weather proof, etc – it’d serve under any condition one would consider shooting in. Such parameters should be a given for any scope labeled “HD.” Turret caps are well secured. Occular adjustments lock up tight. The rheostat knob is well seated by threads and gaskets. It rotates with a positive feel with off settings between illumination levels, inspired by Leupold’s MR/T perhaps. The magnification dial rotates from 1X to 4X with a 180 degree rotation. I can do this with two deliberate wrist moves. Keep the cat tails…you won’t need it. The body has a hard matte black finish. In hand, to me, this scope feels very rugged. It appears to be on par with Nightforce and S&B. In short – it’s definitely heavy duty. No issues here. To speculate further would be unsubstantiated. I don’t plan on using mine to pound roofing nails in order to make a point! Glass quality is superb. The sight picture is crystal clear from edge to edge and boasts a generous FOV regardless of magnification level. Light transmission is incredible. I have no means to gauge it but it's akin to looking through a clean glass window. The view contains three high contrasting black posts that taper into the SS’s simple and efficient CQB circle. Reminiscent of the Nightforce FC-2 the circle truly dominates your sight alignment by naturally drawing your eye to the center. Inside the circle is an innovative FFP Mil / Mil crosshair. At 1X magnification the crosshairs becomes a ghosted center point which perfectly compliments the speed and accuracy potential of the reticle when shooting with both eyes open. Crank it up to 4X for incredible clarity and a precise aiming point. The circle is large enough to center on a silhouette but small enough to stay out of the way at higher magnification. The dimensions are right where they need to be. In a way, the Super Sniper gives you two reticles to work from – one at 1X, and the other at 4X. At 4X the tapered posts and circle become the backdrop for what may be the SS’s most unique aspect compared to other scopes in its class. Whereas many low power variables cater to venues >50 yards or <200, the SS’s reticle successfully bridged the gap and gives the shooter the absolute best aiming system regardless of range. Finally! The reticle is simple and effective. You don’t lose it in the FOV nor does it get overwhelming. The Mil / Mil crosshairs provide a universally accepted and consistent means of correcting and calculating elevation and windage. SWFA deserves a lot of credit for going this way as it transcends specific bullet drop calibrations and stadia based on certain cartridges, loads, etc. Many scopes like the Burris XTR do this and I find it limits the scope’s potential and muddies its simple usability. Even with bullet drop compensation it's typically load specific and is influenced by so many other variables. ACOG's pull it off. Not sure who else does....with great success. I like the template the mil system offers with regards to customizing your specific firearm and ammo. With a 0.10 Mil adjustment – it certainly delivers flexibility to the shooter. On the capped model the turrets lift up for calibration and are pressed down once corrected. From there you dial accordingly and accurately. Again, shooting that far isn’t (in my view) the norm for a 5.56 carbine so the added effort of removing a turret cap for adjustment and ranging are duly warranted. Of course the the same could apply to a 7.62 rifle. The ability to utilize the same reticle for CQB, typical shooting venues below 200 yards, and long range shooting is in my view the most powerful advantage of the Super Sniper 1-4 HD. Even without messing with the turrets, one could range their respective cartridge(s) to the horizontal stadia for holdovers. Options are good! How about that illumination! The circle and crosshairs are daylight visible. SWFA told me they went as bright as technology would allow. I can attest…the illumination is certainly all that and more. With the reticle’s surface area illuminated….you get a circular visual very similar to looking through a Swarovski 1-6. The SS is bright enough to allow for some blooming as well, seen as “spillover” from behind the black posts. Additionally, it’s worth noting that even without the illumination – the glass quality and black reticle is crisp and contrasts incredibly well on its own. Illumination, while important and favored amongst many – isn’t entirely necessary. For myself, a large portion of the year is blanketed with snow and a black reticle is actually preferred. I’m also of a fan of the rheostat’s orientation on the scope. Similar to Nightforce, the knob is on the side of the scope but retains the same on/off layout as Leupold’s MR/T. Not 100% sure on the battery life yet – I’ll update when I learn more or do the experiment myself. More information about the illumination can be found by perusing this thread: Optics Talk Review of the Super Sniper 1-4 HD So how does the Super Sniper stack up to other optics in the mid-range price bracket of $600-$1200? I personally think this is the most comprehensive optic ever made available for the AR15 platform. Mind you, as certain aspects of optics mean more to others – your own preferences may vary. For example, if you don’t shoot past 200 yards, a Nightforce FC-2 or NP-1 would suit you well. Same could be said for the daylight bright Meopta K-Dot or the battery free Trijicon Accupoint. If you find yourself shooting 50+ yards then the MR/T, XTR, IOR, NF, etc should be on your short list. There are so many optics to choose from. Let the venue drive your selection though. If weight really matters then no low power variable will suit your comfort level and you should look at the ever popular Aimpoint with a QD magnifier or an ACOG like the incredible Trijicon TA33. If cost matters then you may wish to check out the Vortex PST which hosts a ton of features around $500. There is a lot of great options out there and I don't mean to discredit any of them. There are pros and cons to each optic and they all provide something that the other doesn't. To that end, if you want the best of everything and the worst of none – then you should feel very confident in selecting a Super Sniper 1-4X24 HD. In all my years shooting AR’s, “nothing comes close” to the value offered in this scope. It is extremely rugged, very clear, ultra bright, easy to use, and will serve your AR15 well regardless of range. As with the rest of the new Super Sniper HD line of products – it’s a safe assumption to classify these low power variables as workhorses. I really like mine and fully intend to keep it. In my view it’s the best 1-4 scope it its class and worth every penny at $799. These aren't the tried and true fixed magnification scopes of years past. This round of Super Snipers have evolved substantially. Hope this review helps. The second review by Hokie with the comparisons to and discussions regarding the Leatherwood CMR, Nightforce NXS 1-4 Mildot, Trijicon TR24 German #4, Vortex PST 1-4, Vortex Razor HD 1-4, and S&B 1.1-4 Short Dot. Leatherwood CMR: 1x 4x I don’t feel like writing too much on this one. The value is primarily with its cost. It’s made in China. Unmistakably feels less quality compared to some of the other optics in the line up. Most of my hesitation lies with the fit and finish. Pretty sure it wouldn’t take much to mar the coating on this optic. The reticle is overly complicated in my opinion. The illumination is green and isn’t consistently bright across the horseshoe. Not daytime visible. Worth it? For an affordable entry level “tactical” scope under $300? Absolutely. As for how the CMR compares to the SS, it really doesn’t on any level. It’s a fraction of the SS at a fraction of the price. Still, I think the CMR has its place although for the money I’d probably want a reputable traditional scope over a budget tactical option. That’s just me though. YMMV. Trijicon Accupoint TR24-3G: 1x 4x Who doesn’t have some love for the Accupoint? It’s a great scope, great glass, with great incorporation of fiber optics to boast constant illumination regardless of ambient light. I will say that should one want a TR24, the triangle version is the only way to roll. At 1X, where reticle design matters most…the TR24’s primary advantage is its fiber optic. Otherwise, the scope has no substantial mojo over other scopes on the market. The triangle, mind you, is truly an incredible option for daytime shooting below 200/300 yards. Some use it well out to 400. Beyond point blank range, the reticle usefulness nosedives unless you know the range and want to mess with the turrets. Some do some don’t. Once the night falls, I don’t think the tritium does much for you outside of adding some contrast to the reticle. Once you touch off a weapon light – the reticle goes black. Manual illumination matters and Trijicon doesn’t employ the technology. Whereas the TR24 is certainly daytime savvy, the SS is night and daytime savvy. Where its daylight illumination level (setting #11) may not gleam like the Accupoint, the black reticle jumps right out and contrasts extremely well. At night, the SS is the obvious choice. Compared to the TR24, the SS has equal or better glass. The TR24 is a great choice, but I think the SS is a better option in a general 1X-4X. It’s simply more versatile. On an AR15, I feel the TR24 isn’t the 24/7 optic everyone wants it to be. I feel the SS is. No disrespect to the Accupoint though. I love that optic. I have a 3-9 on my deer rifle. That fiber optic reticle is such a bonus for a deer hunter. With those three options out of the way, we can concentrate on some better optics that are worth a deeper evaluation and comparison to the SS 1-4 HD. I believe the following five scopes all machine their tubes from solid bar stock 6061-T6 aircraft-grade aluminum alloy. So let’s assume construction is on par. All adjustments and moving components on the following optics are also comparable and do not offer a real advantage over the other. Not that I can tell anyway. There may be some stark differences internally – but everything works as advertised. The real differences between the following are in the glass quality and reticle design. Nightforce NXS 1-4 NXS Compact Mil Dot: 1x 4x Nightforce Optics has a well known reputation for heavy duty construction. No argument here. It’s a compact rugged option, for certain. I’m also convinced there’s a reason they don’t call themselves Dayforce Optics. The hollowed out reticles are damn near invisible for practical ranges that justify 1X-4X variable scopes. Frankly, the NXS 1-4 Mil Dot sucks at 1X. Up close, I really like the FC-2 option for daytime use as its design clearly inspired the SS. Even so, the FC-2 doesn’t offer much in the way of precise aiming past the 5.56 cartridge’s point blank range. I went with the Mil Dot here to compare against the SS’s FFP reticle. At 4X, the NF offers absolutely no discernable advantage over the SS. In fact, I find the NF’s reticle to bleed/bloom while illuminated. I also find the SS to have better glass, comparatively. The glass quality of the NXS is great, but not SS great. The SS is exceptionally crisp and bright. That bump in clarity makes the SS’s crosshairs really sharp. The SS has horizontal stadia as opposed to mil dots. I like that myself. By my account the SS blows the NXS Mil Dot away at 1X and outperforms it at 4X. Comparing it to the FC-2 version at 1X, the SS is comparable but blows it away at 4X. Construction wise, I couldn’t tell which optic appears stronger. They’re both very robust optics. Overall I’m of the opinion the SS is a better scope than the NF, regardless of what reticle the NF is wearing. Considering the SS lists at $800 vs. $1100+/-…the decision is an easy one. Vortex PST 1-4X24: 1x 4x I’d have to say that comparing the SS to the Vortex PST and Razor was the cornerstone of my enthusiasm on this follow up review. Everyone’s looking to save a few bucks and get the best value in an optic. With a $300 price difference, the PST is rockn’ and rollin’ through the industry. With the PST in hand I can understand why. It’s a nice scope for $500. That said, there are some aspects of the PST that highlight some key disadvantages if one is to compare it to the SS. First, the glass quality. Between the two the differences are noticeable. If one is to take the two and look through them back to back – it’s very evident that the SS is a brighter and crisper experience. Does this matter? At extended ranges it sure does. Second, the reticle. The PST hit the market with a SFP reticle design that allows the shooter some boldness at 1X and some precision at 4X. The SFP of course stays the same size through the magnification whereas the FFP grows and shrinks. It is with the reticle comparison that I draw my primary bias for the SS. At 1X the PST’s broken circle and lack of horizontal and vertical posts focus your attention at 1X on the 4 black quadrants. Not many scopes even approach the PST/SS’ CQB intentions with their reticle…so to that end the PST is a winner. Compared to the SS however, the PST grossly falls short with regards to speed. I also don't understand why Vortex felt compelled to etch the reticle's name into the glass. Is it there to remind the shooter in the event he forgets? Third, the illumination. Brightness is on par with each other. However, simply stated the SS’ reticle has more real estate – and to that end is brighter. The red is almost neon. Both reticles are daylight “practical” and will light up against most backgrounds. Both rheostats will last at full brightness for a healthy work day, patrol, coyote hunt, or stroll through the local zombie park. All said and done if the illumination went dead…you’d better hope you had the best bold black reticle design on the market. Pictures speak a thousand words: Vortex illumination SS illumination The turrets and calibration of the PST are nice. It has .2 mrad adjustments as opposed to the SS’ .1 adjustment. Big deal? On a 1X-4X variable...not really, but I'd make the case that more precision potential is a good thing.. The rest of the comparisons are worth noting, but aren’t deal breakers. I like the Spartan simplicity of the SS’ construction over the PST. Less is more as far as I’m concerned. PST added some bells n’ whistles that I feel are neat, but not necessary for a rugged knock around AR scope. I also like how the SS has a deep 5/8” objective over the glass as a protective measure and sunshade. I like the infinite adjustability of the ocular. Takes a spell to get it right, but once you do – it’s amazing. The PST is faster to adjust, admittedly. The PST has no locking mechanism either, which is a detriment IMHO. All said and done, I won’t knock the PST because it’s a great option at $500. Still, comparatively…the SS is a better scope with better glass, better construction, and a much better reticle. Worth $300 more? Yes. The SS is in a different, and higher, tier than the PST. Vortex Razor 1-4 HD: 1x 4x In my opinion the Vortex Razor is the only Vortex optic that can truly be compared to the level of quality and finish I think is now owned by the SS 1-4 HD. This review will be brief. The glass quality rivals that of the SS in terms of noticeable brightness and impressive clarity. The construction of the Razor itself is also nice. Same bells and whistles as the PST, but more refined. The turrets are fatter than the SS and PST, and are real tight to the point where it’s a bitch to manipulate. Not a problem leaning over the gun but concentrating on a target at 4X will shift your FOV significantly. The Razor also has ¼ MOA adjustments, which I don’t personally care for. As for the reticle, there is no comparison…as there’s nothing to compare! The EBR-556 confuses me. It’s invisible at 1X and too clustered for my liking at 4X. I think the Vortex had some great intentions with the EBR-556, but it’s lost on me. If one wanted a precision reticle in a 1X-4X scope, they should have kept it SFP and beefed up the horizontal and vertical stadia. Its too late though as SS beat them to the punch with their crosshair reticle option. Even with the Razor’s level of quality which rivals the SS more so than the PST, I’d rather have a PST than a Razor. Still, I’d much rather have a SS than either! Schmidt & Bender 1.1-4 Short Dot: 1x 4x I have to admit, I was anticipating being blown away by the $2,000+ tactical superiority of the coveted S&B 1.1X-4X Short Dot. I’m not, at all. While the S&B boasts some significant advantages with its illumination and innovative turret construction, I find it grossly lacking in terms of glass quality and reticle design. I might get hung out to dry on this one by the general public, but having had the opportunity to mess around with the S&B – I don’t want one. The turrets are cool though in that you lift them up to turn them. They’re on a spring system which automatically locks them into place. It has ½ MOA adjustments…which again, I don’t care for. Otherwise the construction is all that it should be. The S&B is certainly heavier than the other options too. With all the smoke & mirrors out of the way, what you pay for in the Short Dot is daytime illumination akin to an Aimpoint. This particular aspect intrigued me so I spent some time with it. Stacked up to an Aimpoint H-1 at its highest setting, the S&B’s max brightness was one illumination below it. The SS’ illumination was one brightness setting below that. What’s that mean? It means the H-1 and S&B are daylight visible. The H-1 has an edge though with that extra setting which gets you a visible red dot in the event you’re aiming directly into the sun. The S&B is daylight visible under every venue. I’d like to think that bright sun beaten snow at high noon on a cloudless day is about as bright a background one could encounter. The SS blackens out under these circumstances but the bold reticle takes over and delivers a better contrasting design than the H-1 and S&B. For what it’s worth, I’d rather have a black reticle on bright backgrounds instead of experimenting with what will and what won’t wash out. I also noticed that at 1X magnification, the S&B’s reticle is essentially useless without the red dot. It’s too fine a FFP crosshair with a hollow frame to be of any practical use. You need the dot which means you need the battery. Not sure I like that dependency. Beyond the 1X issues, the glass quality is bluish and dull. I find the quality of glass compared to the SS to be … well, horrible. The crosshair thickness at 4X seems to lack the level of precision the SS has as well. S&B and H-1 at full brightness: So, in summary – the SS 1-4 HD has construction, glass, and reticle advantages that set it far ahead of every low power variable optic I’ve had the pleasure of evaluating. At $800, the scope is not only a superior scope, but it’s a great bargain. The SS doesn’t have to compete with any scope on the market. Other scopes have to compete with the SS. For me…I have a 14.5” carbine with an Aimpoint, and a 16” with a SS 1-4 HD. It’s all I want and all I need. With its unique FFP reticle design, high quality glass, and rugged design, it does everything the shooter could want. After perusing AR15.com for over 10 years, I’ve read and contributed to threads and endless discussion on what would constitute the perfect 1X-4X scope for the AR. Heck at one time a true 1X magnification level was a pipe dream! But here are in 2011…and SWFA hit the nail on the head with the introduction of the SS line of HD optics. It’s evolution in motion. I truly feel this scope is the best representation of over 10 years of industry feedback. Hope this helps. If I missed anything or didn’t touch on a particular aspect, I apologize! Thanks for taking the time to read. |
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The S&B's reticle is designed to almost disappear at 1x to more emulate a true red dot and was not intended to be used at 1x. Of course unlike the SWFA, with the S&B no foam donuts are used to attempt to keep batteries from losing connectivity, something not found in other $800+ scopes, just in cheap, airsoft grade scopes.
The SWFA compares favorably to scopes in the $500 to $800 range. Had they made the circle reticle at 1x come down to 10moa or less , it would have been better. Just as the Vortex Razor or PST will never make it on a miltary weapon in use by the armed forces, neither will the SWFA product. There is a reason the S&B's are deployed bu our forces worldwide. bigjimfish: Where were the POI maginification change tests for the SWFA? |
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IDPA - No excuses, No sight pictures, No gaming, No rehearsing. Shoot now or go to the back of the line!
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bigjimfish: Where were the POI maginification change tests for the SWFA?
I did not write the above review. That is why it does not include the typical tests and format that I use. I copied it and posted it here because it is informative and well done. The review was written by Hokie on Snipers Hide. He also frequently posts here but I don't think he has posted the same stuff on both sites. On a different note: I have updated the table on page 1 to add the following scopes: Hawke endurance 30 1-4x24mm Steiner 1-4x USO SN-4s dual focal plane Bushnell Elite 6500 1-6.5x IOR 1-10x26mm and the Kruger 1,2-8x Most of these were debuted at SHOT this year and have not been released yet. Several have prices marked in the table with a question mark beside. These are simply my wild ass guesses as to what they will come out at. The USO scope has not even been officially announced yet but can be seen in the video CSTactical made of their tour of the USO factory. I am not sure how optically different it is from the current SN-4s other than having reticle elements in both focal planes. Despite the lack of formal announcement USO is already accepting orders on this optic. Video of CSTactical USO tour |
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Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder:
The S&B's reticle is designed to almost disappear at 1x to more emulate a true red dot and was not intended to be used at 1x. Of course unlike the SWFA, with the S&B no foam donuts are used to attempt to keep batteries from losing connectivity, something not found in other $800+ scopes, just in cheap, airsoft grade scopes. The SWFA compares favorably to scopes in the $500 to $800 range. Had they made the circle reticle at 1x come down to 10moa or less , it would have been better. Just as the Vortex Razor or PST will never make it on a miltary weapon in use by the armed forces, neither will the SWFA product. There is a reason the S&B's are deployed bu our forces worldwide. bigjimfish: Where were the POI maginification change tests for the SWFA? Just an FYI: The battery thing has been fixed by SWFA now, no more foam donut thingy. And question: How would the circle being 10 moa or less improve the design? I'm just asking as I'm looking big time at this particular scope, but not locked in yet. I'm also looking at the GRSC, but still doing more research in general. Thanks. |
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Member of Team Ranstad
"We talk about fate as if it were something visited upon us; we forget that we create our fate every day we live."--Henry Miller |
Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder:
The S&B's reticle is designed to almost disappear at 1x to more emulate a true red dot and was not intended to be used at 1x. Of course unlike the SWFA, with the S&B no foam donuts are used to attempt to keep batteries from losing connectivity, something not found in other $800+ scopes, just in cheap, airsoft grade scopes. The SWFA compares favorably to scopes in the $500 to $800 range. Had they made the circle reticle at 1x come down to 10moa or less , it would have been better. Just as the Vortex Razor or PST will never make it on a miltary weapon in use by the armed forces, neither will the SWFA product. There is a reason the S&B's are deployed bu our forces worldwide. bigjimfish: Where were the POI maginification change tests for the SWFA? I just got my SS 1-4X (donut reticle) and put a couple hundred rounds through it this last Thursday. I did a 50 yard zero, which was quick and simple. I really noticed no shift in point of impact going from 1 to 4X (only shot out to 100 yrds due to range limitations). The scope funtioned very well and was quite fast on 1X for CQB applications. I was able to work it remarkably quick from 10 to 50 yards making head shots on 1X. The glass is very nice. I do wish it went one click higher on the illumination. It was a very bright day and it was "daylight practicable" The reticle went to a dark red in the bright sun. I had no problems with illum flicker. Anyway, my scope is one of the newer versisons and does not use a foam washer. That has been fixed on the new versions. I agree I think the issue should have been caught in QC to begin with, but it is fixed now, so you don't need to keep getting all hung up about it. If you look above, I posted what they did to fix the problem on the new models and it is not a foam washer. It is far from a "cheap airsoft grade scope". |
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Moderators: Could we make this threat a Sticky?
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Congratz on the SWFA. I love mine. Try dialing it up ~5.5 mil (i.e 55 mrad) for close range shots. Thats like a 20m zero for me, and it makes the local IDPA carbine matches a snap. Remember to use your focus adjustment on the eyebell, getting that set correctly for close/long range seems to make a world of difference to me.
The circle is plenty fast for close range (I get a lot of 'oh, thats easy!' from people who check it out.) I can see how one might prefer it a tad bit smaller, but that wouldn't work as well for 4x (its FFP remember). I like it better than nearly every other 1x reticle I've seen. SWFA coolade tastes good. This one's done about 5 or 6 carbine matches and one 3-gun with good results. Illumination still works, but I do have to fiddle with the battery/spring every 500 rounds or so. LOVE the turret, general construction, and glass. Every scope is a compromise of eye relief, fov, eyebox, and its interesting to see where the various 1-4 optics land. Doesn't magnification, eyepeice diameter, and eye relief determine the eyebox of a scope? |
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Great thread by the way! Very comprehensive and practical in it's delivery. I have a few threads o'er the SS on a few forums. I think the Arfcom version is the comprehensive one. I'm typing from my phone, which is a pain in the ass. When I get some free time in front of the desktop I'll update my review thread as well. Glad it's at least referenced here. Some real good info in here.
Cheers! H |
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"We'll come in low ... out of the rising sun. About a mile out, we'll put on the music."
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Another Mainer! I'm not alone up here?! Nice reticle shots. What is your impression of the SS vs?
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"We'll come in low ... out of the rising sun. About a mile out, we'll put on the music."
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Originally Posted By BigJimFish:
Hokie's SWFA SS 1-4x reviews The following will be an assemblage with some redaction (mostly pics) of reviews of the SWFA scope written by Hokie on Snipers hide. In this excellent review he talks not only about the SS but also about the Leatherwood CMR, Nightforce NXS 1-4 Mildot, Trijicon TR24 German #4, Vortex PST 1-4, Vortex Razor HD 1-4, and S&B 1.1-4 Short Dot. All of these scopes are present for the test and the resulting information is very useful. Links to the original, full posts are as follows. First SS review SS compared to other scopes Here is the first review by Hokie: Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum but thought I'd jump in and say hello. I find subject matter here takes up the majority of my interests! I'm not a professional operator and don't proclaim to know it all. That said I do have a lot of time behind a host of occulars and have formed some educated opinions. As an ice breaker, I thought I'd share a review I just finished with the new HD line of Super Sniper scopes by SWFA. Enjoy! "Technology is not evolving anymore, technology IS evolution!” I was very enthusiastic to write this review. I’ve long been a clap-happy fan of practical optics, versatile carbines, and industry savvy. When SWFA announced the creation of a Super Sniper line of low power variable optics – I was immediately intrigued. Why? For one – SWFA stocks, handles, and sells virtually every optic commercially available. By trade SWFA has a finger on the pulse of the optics industry. They know what works, what doesn’t, what sells, and what the end user wants in a comprehensive scope for the AR platform. SWFA ventured to assess, design, manufacture, and drop such an investment into the mosh pit of competing heavy duty optics. This maneuver is a true testament to their confidence over the Super Sniper line of products. That’s definitely worth noting and inspires some legitimate curiosity as to what makes this scope worth your while. This review is intended to help satisfy that craving. It will also share my personal observations with regards to how this scope compares to others in its class. Lord knows I’ve tried many an optic over the years. So many incredible options, each with its own set of pros and cons. For each scope I’ve tried, I’ve also found a reason to get rid of it. There was always a technical compromise that prevented the low power variable from serving in the capacity of a general purpose optic. By "general purpose" I mean that which is best suited to hit typical silhouettes with no specific range limitations. Before I get too far into this…let me come right out and state that from my perspective the SWFA Super Sniper 1-4 HD is the long overdue culmination of several proven and popular scope designs. They’ve taken the best mojo from other capable scopes placed them all into one. If you are in the market for a high quality do-it-all optic and mount combo under $1,000 for your AR15 – read on. My range time (aka free time) has been very limited this month. Consequently to date I have only fired 200 rounds of M855 behind this scope to establish a 50/200 yard zero and feel out the basics of what the Super Sniper offers. To really dig into the details of its long range accuracy potential past 200 yards I’ll reference a great field review by contributor I have a great deal of respect for: http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/ssprofile.jpg What SWFA has essentially done here is create an exceptionally rugged and high quality 1-4X variable that caters to the standard 50 / 200 yard zero yet offers unparalleled advantages when dialing out to the limits of one’s abilities. A great deal of innovation went into its design. For my review I elected the model with the CQB circle and capped turrets. SWFA also offers this model with an open MIL crosshair and uncapped turrets. My shooting efforts with the 5.56 cartridge rarely exceed 200 yards, so for my perceived shooting venues I wanted a zero that I could set and forget. In the event I want to move to a bipod in the prone position and exercise my carbine’s accuracy potential beyond typical ranges – I could…and with great ease. The way I see it, extended shots past 200 yards are the exception and not the norm. If the opposite were true one would likely opt for a different caliber and / or higher powered scope. To be able to cap the turrets all together is a great benefit. When stacking up the important components of a low power variable optic – a short list of must haves come to mind: 1) Durability 2) Glass 3) Reticle Design 4) Turrets 5) Eye Relief and Exit Pupil 6) Weight 7) Illumination Potential 8) Battery Power 9) Customer Service 10) Affordability These factors all contribute to a scope’s worthiness over a firearm. Those who have spent enough time behind an occular can certainly appreciate how very important such details are. The Super Sniper 1-4 HD capitalizes on each of those factors by incorporating the best resolutions available. To elaborate: Its components are very Spartan and robust. In my view it stands shoulder to shoulder with the level of quality standardized by Nightforce. Rated -50 to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, weather proof, etc – it’d serve under any condition one would consider shooting in. Such parameters should be a given for any scope labeled “HD.” Turret caps are well secured. Occular adjustments lock up tight. The rheostat knob is well seated by threads and gaskets. It rotates with a positive feel with off settings between illumination levels, inspired by Leupold’s MR/T perhaps. The magnification dial rotates from 1X to 4X with a 180 degree rotation. I can do this with two deliberate wrist moves. Keep the cat tails…you won’t need it. The body has a hard matte black finish. In hand, to me, this scope feels very rugged. It appears to be on par with Nightforce and S&B. In short – it’s definitely heavy duty. No issues here. To speculate further would be unsubstantiated. I don’t plan on using mine to pound roofing nails in order to make a point! Glass quality is superb. The sight picture is crystal clear from edge to edge and boasts a generous FOV regardless of magnification level. Light transmission is incredible. I have no means to gauge it but it's akin to looking through a clean glass window. The view contains three high contrasting black posts that taper into the SS’s simple and efficient CQB circle. Reminiscent of the Nightforce FC-2 the circle truly dominates your sight alignment by naturally drawing your eye to the center. Inside the circle is an innovative FFP Mil / Mil crosshair. At 1X magnification the crosshairs becomes a ghosted center point which perfectly compliments the speed and accuracy potential of the reticle when shooting with both eyes open. Crank it up to 4X for incredible clarity and a precise aiming point. The circle is large enough to center on a silhouette but small enough to stay out of the way at higher magnification. The dimensions are right where they need to be. In a way, the Super Sniper gives you two reticles to work from – one at 1X, and the other at 4X. At 4X the tapered posts and circle become the backdrop for what may be the SS’s most unique aspect compared to other scopes in its class. Whereas many low power variables cater to venues >50 yards or <200, the SS’s reticle successfully bridged the gap and gives the shooter the absolute best aiming system regardless of range. Finally! The reticle is simple and effective. You don’t lose it in the FOV nor does it get overwhelming. The Mil / Mil crosshairs provide a universally accepted and consistent means of correcting and calculating elevation and windage. SWFA deserves a lot of credit for going this way as it transcends specific bullet drop calibrations and stadia based on certain cartridges, loads, etc. Many scopes like the Burris XTR do this and I find it limits the scope’s potential and muddies its simple usability. Even with bullet drop compensation it's typically load specific and is influenced by so many other variables. ACOG's pull it off. Not sure who else does....with great success. I like the template the mil system offers with regards to customizing your specific firearm and ammo. With a 0.10 Mil adjustment – it certainly delivers flexibility to the shooter. On the capped model the turrets lift up for calibration and are pressed down once corrected. From there you dial accordingly and accurately. Again, shooting that far isn’t (in my view) the norm for a 5.56 carbine so the added effort of removing a turret cap for adjustment and ranging are duly warranted. Of course the the same could apply to a 7.62 rifle. The ability to utilize the same reticle for CQB, typical shooting venues below 200 yards, and long range shooting is in my view the most powerful advantage of the Super Sniper 1-4 HD. Even without messing with the turrets, one could range their respective cartridge(s) to the horizontal stadia for holdovers. Options are good! How about that illumination! The circle and crosshairs are daylight visible. SWFA told me they went as bright as technology would allow. I can attest…the illumination is certainly all that and more. With the reticle’s surface area illuminated….you get a circular visual very similar to looking through a Swarovski 1-6. The SS is bright enough to allow for some blooming as well, seen as “spillover” from behind the black posts. Additionally, it’s worth noting that even without the illumination – the glass quality and black reticle is crisp and contrasts incredibly well on its own. Illumination, while important and favored amongst many – isn’t entirely necessary. For myself, a large portion of the year is blanketed with snow and a black reticle is actually preferred. I’m also of a fan of the rheostat’s orientation on the scope. Similar to Nightforce, the knob is on the side of the scope but retains the same on/off layout as Leupold’s MR/T. Not 100% sure on the battery life yet – I’ll update when I learn more or do the experiment myself. More information about the illumination can be found by perusing this thread: Optics Talk Review of the Super Sniper 1-4 HD So how does the Super Sniper stack up to other optics in the mid-range price bracket of $600-$1200? I personally think this is the most comprehensive optic ever made available for the AR15 platform. Mind you, as certain aspects of optics mean more to others – your own preferences may vary. For example, if you don’t shoot past 200 yards, a Nightforce FC-2 or NP-1 would suit you well. Same could be said for the daylight bright Meopta K-Dot or the battery free Trijicon Accupoint. If you find yourself shooting 50+ yards then the MR/T, XTR, IOR, NF, etc should be on your short list. There are so many optics to choose from. Let the venue drive your selection though. If weight really matters then no low power variable will suit your comfort level and you should look at the ever popular Aimpoint with a QD magnifier or an ACOG like the incredible Trijicon TA33. If cost matters then you may wish to check out the Vortex PST which hosts a ton of features around $500. There is a lot of great options out there and I don't mean to discredit any of them. There are pros and cons to each optic and they all provide something that the other doesn't. To that end, if you want the best of everything and the worst of none – then you should feel very confident in selecting a Super Sniper 1-4X24 HD. In all my years shooting AR’s, “nothing comes close” to the value offered in this scope. It is extremely rugged, very clear, ultra bright, easy to use, and will serve your AR15 well regardless of range. As with the rest of the new Super Sniper HD line of products – it’s a safe assumption to classify these low power variables as workhorses. I really like mine and fully intend to keep it. In my view it’s the best 1-4 scope it its class and worth every penny at $799. These aren't the tried and true fixed magnification scopes of years past. This round of Super Snipers have evolved substantially. Hope this review helps. The second review by Hokie with the comparisons to and discussions regarding the Leatherwood CMR, Nightforce NXS 1-4 Mildot, Trijicon TR24 German #4, Vortex PST 1-4, Vortex Razor HD 1-4, and S&B 1.1-4 Short Dot. Leatherwood CMR: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/leatherwoodCMR1X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/leatherwoodCMR4X.jpg I don’t feel like writing too much on this one. The value is primarily with its cost. It’s made in China. Unmistakably feels less quality compared to some of the other optics in the line up. Most of my hesitation lies with the fit and finish. Pretty sure it wouldn’t take much to mar the coating on this optic. The reticle is overly complicated in my opinion. The illumination is green and isn’t consistently bright across the horseshoe. Not daytime visible. Worth it? For an affordable entry level “tactical” scope under $300? Absolutely. As for how the CMR compares to the SS, it really doesn’t on any level. It’s a fraction of the SS at a fraction of the price. Still, I think the CMR has its place although for the money I’d probably want a reputable traditional scope over a budget tactical option. That’s just me though. YMMV. Trijicon Accupoint TR24-3G: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/TR241X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/TR244X.jpg Who doesn’t have some love for the Accupoint? It’s a great scope, great glass, with great incorporation of fiber optics to boast constant illumination regardless of ambient light. I will say that should one want a TR24, the triangle version is the only way to roll. At 1X, where reticle design matters most…the TR24’s primary advantage is its fiber optic. Otherwise, the scope has no substantial mojo over other scopes on the market. The triangle, mind you, is truly an incredible option for daytime shooting below 200/300 yards. Some use it well out to 400. Beyond point blank range, the reticle usefulness nosedives unless you know the range and want to mess with the turrets. Some do some don’t. Once the night falls, I don’t think the tritium does much for you outside of adding some contrast to the reticle. Once you touch off a weapon light – the reticle goes black. Manual illumination matters and Trijicon doesn’t employ the technology. Whereas the TR24 is certainly daytime savvy, the SS is night and daytime savvy. Where its daylight illumination level (setting #11) may not gleam like the Accupoint, the black reticle jumps right out and contrasts extremely well. At night, the SS is the obvious choice. Compared to the TR24, the SS has equal or better glass. The TR24 is a great choice, but I think the SS is a better option in a general 1X-4X. It’s simply more versatile. On an AR15, I feel the TR24 isn’t the 24/7 optic everyone wants it to be. I feel the SS is. No disrespect to the Accupoint though. I love that optic. I have a 3-9 on my deer rifle. That fiber optic reticle is such a bonus for a deer hunter. With those three options out of the way, we can concentrate on some better optics that are worth a deeper evaluation and comparison to the SS 1-4 HD. I believe the following five scopes all machine their tubes from solid bar stock 6061-T6 aircraft-grade aluminum alloy. So let’s assume construction is on par. All adjustments and moving components on the following optics are also comparable and do not offer a real advantage over the other. Not that I can tell anyway. There may be some stark differences internally – but everything works as advertised. The real differences between the following are in the glass quality and reticle design. Nightforce NXS 1-4 NXS Compact Mil Dot: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/NF1X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/NF4X.jpg Nightforce Optics has a well known reputation for heavy duty construction. No argument here. It’s a compact rugged option, for certain. I’m also convinced there’s a reason they don’t call themselves Dayforce Optics. The hollowed out reticles are damn near invisible for practical ranges that justify 1X-4X variable scopes. Frankly, the NXS 1-4 Mil Dot sucks at 1X. Up close, I really like the FC-2 option for daytime use as its design clearly inspired the SS. Even so, the FC-2 doesn’t offer much in the way of precise aiming past the 5.56 cartridge’s point blank range. I went with the Mil Dot here to compare against the SS’s FFP reticle. At 4X, the NF offers absolutely no discernable advantage over the SS. In fact, I find the NF’s reticle to bleed/bloom while illuminated. I also find the SS to have better glass, comparatively. The glass quality of the NXS is great, but not SS great. The SS is exceptionally crisp and bright. That bump in clarity makes the SS’s crosshairs really sharp. The SS has horizontal stadia as opposed to mil dots. I like that myself. By my account the SS blows the NXS Mil Dot away at 1X and outperforms it at 4X. Comparing it to the FC-2 version at 1X, the SS is comparable but blows it away at 4X. Construction wise, I couldn’t tell which optic appears stronger. They’re both very robust optics. Overall I’m of the opinion the SS is a better scope than the NF, regardless of what reticle the NF is wearing. Considering the SS lists at $800 vs. $1100+/-…the decision is an easy one. Vortex PST 1-4X24: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/PST1X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/PST4X.jpg I’d have to say that comparing the SS to the Vortex PST and Razor was the cornerstone of my enthusiasm on this follow up review. Everyone’s looking to save a few bucks and get the best value in an optic. With a $300 price difference, the PST is rockn’ and rollin’ through the industry. With the PST in hand I can understand why. It’s a nice scope for $500. That said, there are some aspects of the PST that highlight some key disadvantages if one is to compare it to the SS. First, the glass quality. Between the two the differences are noticeable. If one is to take the two and look through them back to back – it’s very evident that the SS is a brighter and crisper experience. Does this matter? At extended ranges it sure does. Second, the reticle. The PST hit the market with a SFP reticle design that allows the shooter some boldness at 1X and some precision at 4X. The SFP of course stays the same size through the magnification whereas the FFP grows and shrinks. It is with the reticle comparison that I draw my primary bias for the SS. At 1X the PST’s broken circle and lack of horizontal and vertical posts focus your attention at 1X on the 4 black quadrants. Not many scopes even approach the PST/SS’ CQB intentions with their reticle…so to that end the PST is a winner. Compared to the SS however, the PST grossly falls short with regards to speed. I also don't understand why Vortex felt compelled to etch the reticle's name into the glass. Is it there to remind the shooter in the event he forgets? Third, the illumination. Brightness is on par with each other. However, simply stated the SS’ reticle has more real estate – and to that end is brighter. The red is almost neon. Both reticles are daylight “practical” and will light up against most backgrounds. Both rheostats will last at full brightness for a healthy work day, patrol, coyote hunt, or stroll through the local zombie park. All said and done if the illumination went dead…you’d better hope you had the best bold black reticle design on the market. Pictures speak a thousand words: Vortex illumination http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/PSTWOODSILLUMINATED.jpg SS illumination http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/SSWOODSILLUMINATED.jpg The turrets and calibration of the PST are nice. It has .2 mrad adjustments as opposed to the SS’ .1 adjustment. Big deal? On a 1X-4X variable...not really, but I'd make the case that more precision potential is a good thing.. The rest of the comparisons are worth noting, but aren’t deal breakers. I like the Spartan simplicity of the SS’ construction over the PST. Less is more as far as I’m concerned. PST added some bells n’ whistles that I feel are neat, but not necessary for a rugged knock around AR scope. I also like how the SS has a deep 5/8” objective over the glass as a protective measure and sunshade. I like the infinite adjustability of the ocular. Takes a spell to get it right, but once you do – it’s amazing. The PST is faster to adjust, admittedly. The PST has no locking mechanism either, which is a detriment IMHO. All said and done, I won’t knock the PST because it’s a great option at $500. Still, comparatively…the SS is a better scope with better glass, better construction, and a much better reticle. Worth $300 more? Yes. The SS is in a different, and higher, tier than the PST. Vortex Razor 1-4 HD: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/RZR1X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/RZR4X.jpg In my opinion the Vortex Razor is the only Vortex optic that can truly be compared to the level of quality and finish I think is now owned by the SS 1-4 HD. This review will be brief. The glass quality rivals that of the SS in terms of noticeable brightness and impressive clarity. The construction of the Razor itself is also nice. Same bells and whistles as the PST, but more refined. The turrets are fatter than the SS and PST, and are real tight to the point where it’s a bitch to manipulate. Not a problem leaning over the gun but concentrating on a target at 4X will shift your FOV significantly. The Razor also has ¼ MOA adjustments, which I don’t personally care for. As for the reticle, there is no comparison…as there’s nothing to compare! The EBR-556 confuses me. It’s invisible at 1X and too clustered for my liking at 4X. I think the Vortex had some great intentions with the EBR-556, but it’s lost on me. If one wanted a precision reticle in a 1X-4X scope, they should have kept it SFP and beefed up the horizontal and vertical stadia. Its too late though as SS beat them to the punch with their crosshair reticle option. Even with the Razor’s level of quality which rivals the SS more so than the PST, I’d rather have a PST than a Razor. Still, I’d much rather have a SS than either! Schmidt & Bender 1.1-4 Short Dot: 1x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/SB1X.jpg 4x http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/SB4X.jpg I have to admit, I was anticipating being blown away by the $2,000+ tactical superiority of the coveted S&B 1.1X-4X Short Dot. I’m not, at all. While the S&B boasts some significant advantages with its illumination and innovative turret construction, I find it grossly lacking in terms of glass quality and reticle design. I might get hung out to dry on this one by the general public, but having had the opportunity to mess around with the S&B – I don’t want one. The turrets are cool though in that you lift them up to turn them. They’re on a spring system which automatically locks them into place. It has ½ MOA adjustments…which again, I don’t care for. Otherwise the construction is all that it should be. The S&B is certainly heavier than the other options too. With all the smoke & mirrors out of the way, what you pay for in the Short Dot is daytime illumination akin to an Aimpoint. This particular aspect intrigued me so I spent some time with it. Stacked up to an Aimpoint H-1 at its highest setting, the S&B’s max brightness was one illumination below it. The SS’ illumination was one brightness setting below that. What’s that mean? It means the H-1 and S&B are daylight visible. The H-1 has an edge though with that extra setting which gets you a visible red dot in the event you’re aiming directly into the sun. The S&B is daylight visible under every venue. I’d like to think that bright sun beaten snow at high noon on a cloudless day is about as bright a background one could encounter. The SS blackens out under these circumstances but the bold reticle takes over and delivers a better contrasting design than the H-1 and S&B. For what it’s worth, I’d rather have a black reticle on bright backgrounds instead of experimenting with what will and what won’t wash out. I also noticed that at 1X magnification, the S&B’s reticle is essentially useless without the red dot. It’s too fine a FFP crosshair with a hollow frame to be of any practical use. You need the dot which means you need the battery. Not sure I like that dependency. Beyond the 1X issues, the glass quality is bluish and dull. I find the quality of glass compared to the SS to be … well, horrible. The crosshair thickness at 4X seems to lack the level of precision the SS has as well. S&B and H-1 at full brightness: http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/SB1XILLUMINATED.jpg http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/H1ILLUMINATED.jpg So, in summary – the SS 1-4 HD has construction, glass, and reticle advantages that set it far ahead of every low power variable optic I’ve had the pleasure of evaluating. At $800, the scope is not only a superior scope, but it’s a great bargain. The SS doesn’t have to compete with any scope on the market. Other scopes have to compete with the SS. For me…I have a 14.5” carbine with an Aimpoint, and a 16” with a SS 1-4 HD. It’s all I want and all I need. With its unique FFP reticle design, high quality glass, and rugged design, it does everything the shooter could want. After perusing AR15.com for over 10 years, I’ve read and contributed to threads and endless discussion on what would constitute the perfect 1X-4X scope for the AR. Heck at one time a true 1X magnification level was a pipe dream! But here are in 2011…and SWFA hit the nail on the head with the introduction of the SS line of HD optics. It’s evolution in motion. I truly feel this scope is the best representation of over 10 years of industry feedback. Hope this helps. If I missed anything or didn’t touch on a particular aspect, I apologize! Thanks for taking the time to read. Did you only compare the scopes in daylight or did you do any tests in low light? |
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Like Tomac said earlier in this thread, the BURRIS TAC30 only weighs 13 ounces.
With my Butler Creek flip covers AND a cat-tail, it weighs 14.15 ounces on a digital postal scale. When I emailed Ryan Williams from Burris Optics today, he responded via an email, "That's a typo." If you'd like to confirm the weight with him, reference this thread, and email him at: [email protected] The price is also off, unless your listing MSRP (which maybe you're doing for all scopes). The TAC30 in matte black is generally priced $259 to $299. The only version I've seen listed for $339 is the Flat Dark Earth color, but it's not like I've looked everywhere. Maybe put $259-$339. Please correct at least the weight on the front page so that people can get a more accurate view of this scope––not only is it a lot cheaper, with a better field of view, it weighs less than most any of the others. NOTE: While I don't have a Burris XTR to weigh, I was told they ALSO are only just over 13 ounces. Can someone weigh theirs? (Or maybe ask Ryan from Burris) |
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Any chance you could put a picture of the MTAC reticle side by side with the others? Also if you have a chance I would REALLY appreciate a picture of 1x view on both the Vortex PST and the MTAC so I can see what the distortion is like at 1x.
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Does anyone have any experience with the Burris MTAC 1-4X24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 Reticle?
I see an image of the scope in Akula's post above but unless my brain is pulling a good one, I don't remember reading a review on this optic. Cost listed at CTD is $399 so it appears within the average lower end cost of variable AR scopes. http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/2-BU200437.jpg Also the Weaver 1-5 is listed as $800 price, CTD has them for $637.22 |
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Folks....can anyone chime in on the material used to tie down the caps on the Meopta? Looks complicated and unnecessary at first glance, sight unseen. But I'm always open for an education.
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"We'll come in low ... out of the rising sun. About a mile out, we'll put on the music."
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Originally Posted By Hokie:
Folks....can anyone chime in on the material used to tie down the caps on the Meopta? Looks complicated and unnecessary at first glance, sight unseen. But I'm always open for an education. It's just some thing nylon rope that is heat shrunk on the ends to keep the ends around the cap. They can be cut off easily. |
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Champion Firearms
http://www.championfirearms.com (979) 764-1445 |
If anyone is interested in a review of the Meopta ZD 1-4x22 K-5.56 I posted one along with some pictures here:
http://www.recoilsports.com/2011/10/review-of-the-meopta-zd-1-4x22-part-i/ |
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IDPA - No excuses, No sight pictures, No gaming, No rehearsing. Shoot now or go to the back of the line!
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Is the new Leupold VX-6 scope line out with the German #4 reticule? Anyone know if it's daylight visible?
ETA: And the new VX-R Patrol 1.25-4x? That VXR looks nice.....if they'd combine the 2 it would be full of win! |
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There are a lot of new variable power optics out there. What I am looking for is something that allows for quick target acquisition in short distance, but also can be used to reach out towards the max range of the M4 platform. The variable power seems to fit the bill. I have used all of the variants of Aimpoint, a few EOTechs, and even the MARs. I like those for 0-100 meters but anything beyond they are far less precise. I have tried them with magnifiers and find that they are still lacking, the added weight is also a disadvantage. This is going to be used on my personal AR primarily(simply because I shoot it far more then my issued rifle), but it will also accompany me on future deployments. With that I have a few criteria in mind.
Durability: Simply put it can't be a piece of garbage that falls apart leaving me with back up irons as my primary option. I know from my own searching it seems that even the best variable options have some liabilities. It has to be rugged enough to take some abuse. Glass should be offset inside the tube a bit to give it some protection. Zero: It MUST maintain zero. If I use it during a deployment I can't be rezeroing it constantly. I have to know that it is zeroed so I can trust it. Magnification: Mostly looking in the 1-4 range. From what I have read going more than 3 times the base magnification can lead to some eye relief and exit pupil problems. I know that technology advances so I am open to a 1-6 if it is well made. Reticle: There are so many types of reticles it is almost a daunting task to find one that you like. For these varibale power optics it seems that the two important factors are an optic that allows quick acquistion at 1x, and allows precision use at 4x. I am very familiar with Mils (thank you manual gunnery) and ranging and using a mil reticle is very easy to me. However a stedia system seems that it might be more apropriate for this use. Min and Max range for use: Min use would be 0 meters. Max range would be 500-600 yards. Debatable, but at anything beyond that range the 5.56 does not have enough energy left to be reliable. This is allready pushing it. so 0-500/600 Illumination: I have always found that my eye is attracted to the reticle much more quickly and precisely if it is illuminated. this is mostly for the shorter range application in my opinion. So with this thinking the entire reticle does not need to be illuminated but only a smal portion of it should be. However, the illumination must be bright enough that it is able to be used during all conditions. It should also be variable to allow dialing up or down. Battery life is also an important factor. For a daily use optic I can't be changing the battery every day or every couple of days. No battery is paramount but that limits the selection substantialy. The unilluminated(is this a word?) reticle should also be visible enough to be used as a back up should the battery die. Warranty: with the use that this Optic is going to get it must have a substantial warranty that will allow it to be repaired(hopefully the durablilty keeps this from being needed). With all that in mind I think the most important criteria for this optic is Reliability. This is both the durability and the ability to hold zero. A broken optic or one that doesn't hold zero is nothing more than a paper weight. Currently I am looking at the following: SWFA SS 1-4 x24 Vortex Viper PST GRSC CRS 1-4 The SWFA SS is at the high range for what I am looking to spend. The simple fact of the matter is the more I spend the less I am able to spend on Ammo which I see as just as important. I am not looking to build a safe queen. I want something I can take out and shoot, and shoot some more until I am extremely proficient. A 1-4 variable power is not going to be quite as forgiving as an Aimpoint or EOTECH so I need to get practice behind it. Thoughts, recommendations are appreciated. |
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I'm tempted to try the Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x as my next scope. SWFA has them. Check out the
weight and length of it: Leupold VX-R. They also make a version of the same scope without the externally adjustable turrets and it's about $400. They also make several different reticled models. Check out all the features it has, seems very nice. ARKAR |
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NRA Life Member
I can see where you're coming from, 'cause I know where you've been and I can see where you're going 'cause I can see the direction you're headed in. I just don't know where the hell you're at right now. |
Originally Posted By ARKAR:
I'm tempted to try the Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x as my next scope. SWFA has them. Check out the weight and length of it: Leupold VX-R. They also make a version of the same scope without the externally adjustable turrets and it's about $400. They also make several different reticled models. Check out all the features it has, seems very nice. ARKAR This is exactly what I have been thinking. However, I may wait until shot. I was told they will release a 1-6x20mm MK6. I guess the MK 4 line up is getting an update, and the MK6 might be based on the VX-6 from my guesses. ETA: I was able to look through a VX-R Patrol 1.25-4x at the LaRue range day. That optic is awesome, I'd bet it goes up in price. That's a lot of scope for the money. I thought it was on par with a NF 1-4 |
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Anybody evaluate the Nikon Nikon M-223 1-4x20 Rifle Scope, Point Blank Reticle, Matte
and the M332 mount? Thanks... Ron |
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The Swarovski z6i is a 2nd focal plane reticle is it not?
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JESSE
www.JesseTischauser.com www.BoomerShooter.com |
The correct weight of the weaver tactical 1-5x24 is 14.46oz. It's listed at 27+oz almost everywhere on the internet. Must have been a typo from manufactures catalog.
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I will be attending shot show next week and will be writing some show reports on the different optics present at the show. This will include the illusive 1-8x scopes, IOR's 1-10x, Leupold's new Mark 6 lineup, as well as many others. I'll post some pics as well. I have also resolved to update the table at the beginning of the thread since I noticed today that, for example a Leupold CQ/T now goes for $1,100 and not $750. Many of the values have not been updated in the 3 years since I originally started this thread and an update is badly needed. I have been accumulating fixes such as the correct weights for several of the scopes involved. These will be changed at that time.
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Originally Posted By FairbairnFan:
Does anyone have any experience with the Burris MTAC 1-4X24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 Reticle? I see an image of the scope in Akula's post above but unless my brain is pulling a good one, I don't remember reading a review on this optic. Cost listed at CTD is $399 so it appears within the average lower end cost of variable AR scopes. http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/2-BU200437.jpg Also the Weaver 1-5 is listed as $800 price, CTD has them for $637.22 I received a Burris MTAC about 2 weeks ago. I was weary about buying one because of the reticle, it seemed bulky and obtrusive. And i am glad to say it is not. I was able to compare the illumination to a TAC30, and the Tac30 does get a little brighter. The MTAC has 10 brigtness settings, I would say the TAC 30 goes to " 12" compared to the MTAC's 10. The glass is better on the MTAC, no distortion around the edges. From 0-about 10 yards, it does not seem like a true 1x, more like 1.1 or 1.2 once you look beyond 10 yards, I would say it is 1x the reticle is the shit. @ 100yards the center dot represents a 2.4" area. I have only been able to shoot out to about 250 yards, but the drop points are spot on. I have mine mounted in a PEPR mount. Zeroing was simply 2 clicks down, and 2 clicks left. Looking at pictures of the reticles and glass, i cannot justify spending an additional $300 for the SWFA kit. I love my MTAC |
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