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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:13:55 AM EST
In the interest of sharing the wealth, I thought I would share the 100 yard zero target they use at Blackwater when sighting in weapons for their carbine courses.

The image will fit on 8.5x11 paper.

Download the full sized version here.

Set up the target at a distance of 25 yards.

You will notice that the target has an extended black line a few inches wide. This is your point of aim. Then simply adjust your sights until your rounds fall into the middle of the small white square at the bottom of the target.

When that is done, you should have a good sight in that will be within the sight-to-barrel distance of your weapon out to 100 yards. The very same sight picture is useful out to 300 meters by simply aiming a little higher on the target.

I used to use the Santose zero, but I gave the BW 100 yard method a try, and I like it a whole lot better. I was able to engage targets at all ranges faster and more accurately with a lot less guesswork than with other sighting methods.



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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:31:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2006 7:40:20 AM EST by Teltec01]
Thanks for the link to the target, looks like an excellent method to set up the sights.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:35:50 AM EST
thanks for the new idea, i'll be sure to try that today with my new toy
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Posted: 6/10/2006 9:23:25 AM EST
Thanks, i printed it out and will give it a try. I need to zero a new carrying handle.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 9:48:36 AM EST
Thanks. I'll give it a try.

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Posted: 6/10/2006 9:54:00 AM EST
Cool, thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 10:00:28 AM EST
Will try out tomorrow. Thanks
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Posted: 6/10/2006 10:10:29 AM EST
Thanks
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Posted: 6/10/2006 11:53:00 AM EST
Always happy to help.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 1:53:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2006 1:54:07 PM EST by M4A1OwnsYou]
Awesome, thanks. I have my new bolt gun I need to zero and I only have access to 25 yards right now. This should work perfect.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 1:55:59 PM EST
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Posted: 6/10/2006 4:49:27 PM EST
One of the great advantages of the 100 yard zero is that it is much more practical for defensive applications, especially for civilians. (Police and ordinary citizens) Civilians are going to be faced with threats that are pretty close. Worrying about things like holdover at these close ranges is difficult. Even lining up a sight on a proned out adversary at 50 or 75 yards is a lot harder than most people realize. That is not the time to be trying to calculate holdover.

The 100 yard zero allows you to use the sights as almost POA POI at the ranges most of us are likely to face a real threat, and it doesn't compromise your ability to use the sight even at 300 meters.

At previous courses I used the Santose zero, but the difference in my shooting when I used the 100 yard zero was wonderful, ESPECIALLY at CQB distances.

If you use the AR for home defense like I do, the 100 yard zero is probably the most practical setup for you.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 4:50:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2006 4:52:26 PM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Awesome, thanks. I have my new bolt gun I need to zero and I only have access to 25 yards right now. This should work perfect.



Since you are probably using a pretty accurate scoped rifle, I must encourage you to get to a 100 yard distance and confirm your zero when you get a chance. It should be dead on, but sometimes a slight adjustment is necessary at the longer distance to make sure the bullet is exactly where you want it. The zero is almost always within the margin of error of iron sights at 100 yards, but with an accurate scoped rifle small adjustment might be necessary.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:46:32 PM EST
When you are talking about ajusting you sights to make your rounds fall at a 100 yard zero do you suggest moving the front or rear sight, and what should i start off at on the back sight. I have a new a3 and i havent even messed with anything on it yet. I am new to the 15 and I want to get good with it but I dont know much about it. I want it to be fessibleat a hundred yards or less and be able to move my rear sight and get a 200,300,400 yarders thanks in advance for your help guys.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:50:08 PM EST
thanks for the target!
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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:53:02 PM EST
Also one more quick question when you are talking about the 100 yard zero are you saying to shoot at a hundred yard distance or use the 25 yard dist. Forgive me if I sound stupid but I have always used a scope since I was little and I am trying to wheen myself off the scope tittie
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Posted: 6/10/2006 7:59:11 PM EST
and thanks again for your help it is greatly app
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Posted: 6/10/2006 8:35:27 PM EST
Thanks gonna try ir out tomorrow.
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Posted: 6/10/2006 9:02:46 PM EST
shoot it at 25 yds however saying that, the target on an 8.5 by 11 piece of paper will make the silhouette seem as if you're looking at a life size target that is 100 yds away. somebody correct me if i'm wrong but i believe this is the way it goes.....and the only stupid questions are the ones not asked
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Posted: 6/10/2006 9:19:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2006 9:43:04 PM EST by gunz4me]
Thanks for the target.

Here is one that I created for blasting at all ranges. It is not a zeroing target, but I am sure that many of you can appreciate it. Do with it whatever you wish by grabbing it HERE

ETA: Feel free to host it anywhere and please post photos of things you have done with the target
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:25:25 AM EST
Based on the bullet drop on the 25yd zero target, that's pretty much the same as the IBZ, except you now zero at 25 yd instead of at 50 yd. The trajectory puts it very close to the IBZ. The IBZ states to rotate to "3" (2 or 4 clicks up) to shoot at 300m, or you could just aim a tad higher. But this will come in handy at the range! Thanks john_wayne
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:34:50 AM EST
Nice, I'll give this a try when I get home next week.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:05:40 AM EST
Although when we were down there I did do the 100yd zero, I still prefer the 50yd Santose zero. I get a flatter trajectory even out of my 11.5" SBR out to 225yds. Good training there with you JW, that was a fun course I wish I could go back tomorrow.

Scotty and Kyle did convice me that fixed back-up sights are better than flip-ups. So I've reconfigured my 11.5" once again. (all my guns are really works in progress).


Here's what my 11.5" looked like at Blackwater.






And this is what it looks like now.


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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:07:55 AM EST
When I did the Santose IBZ at 50 yd, I noticed my shots were low at 25 yd, approximately where the white box is below the horizontal line in the 100yd zero target.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:28:08 AM EST
This is designed for what ammunition? M193?
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:29:03 AM EST
gotm4, I have never seen an Eotech mounted that far forward before. Is this where you prefer it? And in your experience, any advantages to your setup?
You do realize, that if you continue to bother me, I will shoot your pinky toe off.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:29:25 AM EST
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:40:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By metroplex:
When I did the Santose IBZ at 50 yd, I noticed my shots were low at 25 yd, approximately where the white box is below the horizontal line in the 100yd zero target.



That's pretty much always going to happen since the sights on an AR are about 2.6" above the bore. I prefer the Santose zero because it's very flat out to 300yds.

With the Santose zero you'll have:
1" low at 25yds
dead on at 50yds
1.6" high at 100yds,
1.4" high at 150yds
0.7" high at 200yds
-0.3" low at 250yds,
-1.5" low at 300yds
-2.9" low at 350yds
-4.5" low at 400yds
-6.3" low at 450yds
-8.4" low at 500yds.

With a 100yd zero you'll have:
-1.6" low at 50yds
dead on at 100yds
-0.3" low at 150yds
-1.8" low at 200yds
-4.9" low at 250yds
-9.6" low at 300yds
-16.3" low at 350yds
-25.4" low at 400yds
-37.2" low at 450yds
-52.3" low at 500yds
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:50:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2006 5:53:02 AM EST by metroplex]

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
When I did the Santose IBZ at 50 yd, I noticed my shots were low at 25 yd, approximately where the white box is below the horizontal line in the 100yd zero target.



That's pretty much always going to happen since the sights on an AR are about 2.6" above the bore. I prefer the Santose zero because it's very flat out to 300yds.



I measured about 2.5" over the bore, but I'm taking the enter of the aperture/tip of front post to the center of the bore axis as the measurement.
Just as a comparison, my Vepr is 2", and the PS90 is 3.75" (reflex sight).

My point was, that with this 100yd zero, the bullet drop at 25 yd is very close to the calculated value for a 50yd zero when shot at 25 yd (does this make sense?). It's quite flat out to 200yd but will require aiming higher for 300yd shots (or IAW IBZ, rotate elevation wheel to "3") based on the ballistics.

Using M193, the 100yd zero paper accounts for a drop of about 1.25" at 25 yd. That's close to a 55yd zero, which puts the bullet at approx 7" drop at 300yd
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:58:42 AM EST
So how should I start out from step one with my sights? If i just get rid of the carry handle all together and get a scope which way should I go.I want something that i can put up on the shoulder quick and have a fast aqq
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Posted: 6/11/2006 6:02:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigcraig:
gotm4, I have never seen an Eotech mounted that far forward before. Is this where you prefer it? And in your experience, any advantages to your setup?



It's very fast this way, the reticle doesn't fish around in the sight as much and the sight doesn't block as much peripheral vision. And since Aimpoints and Eotechs are magnified there isn't really a proper eye relief.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 6:13:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2006 4:16:45 PM EST by gotm4]
I'm checking my zero today on my 3 gun rifle out to 300yds today which is right now sighted in using the Santose 50yds zero. My scope is 2.75" above the bore. I have a 3 gun match (Mason Dixon) next Sunday and we have IPSC targets at 300yds.



I'm guesstimating that my 20" bbl is getting about 3150fps. I've never chrono'd it.

So right now it should be:

50yds 0.0"
100yds +1.8"
150yds +2.4"
200yds +1.7"
250yds -0.6"
300yds -4.6"
350yds -10.6"
400yds -19.1"

Edited to add: Today I confirmed my zero at 324yds using American Eagle AE223 55gr FMJ. I shot a 20 shot group that measured 8.5" and the group was 6" low at that distance. My scope is a Leupold 1.5-5x 20mm. I had it on 5x and the reticle covered up a large portion of the zeroing target.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 11:55:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
When I did the Santose IBZ at 50 yd, I noticed my shots were low at 25 yd, approximately where the white box is below the horizontal line in the 100yd zero target.



That's pretty much always going to happen since the sights on an AR are about 2.6" above the bore. I prefer the Santose zero because it's very flat out to 300yds.

With the Santose zero you'll have:
1" low at 25yds
dead on at 50yds
1.6" high at 100yds,
1.4" high at 150yds
0.7" high at 200yds
-0.3" low at 250yds,
-1.5" low at 300yds
-2.9" low at 350yds
-4.5" low at 400yds
-6.3" low at 450yds
-8.4" low at 500yds.

With a 100yd zero you'll have:
-1.6" low at 50yds
dead on at 100yds
-0.3" low at 150yds
-1.8" low at 200yds
-4.9" low at 250yds
-9.6" low at 300yds
-16.3" low at 350yds
-25.4" low at 400yds
-37.2" low at 450yds
-52.3" low at 500yds



For which ammunition?

My data shows that a 100 yard zero will have the following drop at 50 yards for the following ammunition:

XM193 - -0.70"" at 50 yards
77 gr SMK - -0.43" at 50 yards
TAP 75 gr - -0.55" at 50 yards
M855 - -0.56" at 50 yards
UMC 55 gr - -0.66" at 50 yards
Win 64 gr - -0.32" at 50 yards

That's at humidity of 67%, barometric pressure of 29.98in/HG, an altitude of 42', temperature of 62 degrees.

I have wind and drop charts for the above ammunition for 25 yard, 50 yard, 100 yard, and 200 yard zeroes that Viking Tactics provides. That convinced me to go to the 100 yard zero.

However, to use this Blackwater target (or the GI 25 meter target) you have to know the drop at 25 yards for the ammunition you plan to use. Notice that M193 and Remington UMC, while both 55 grain bullets have different velocities and different ballistic coefficents, thus having different drops at 25 and 50 yards.

So, if you were using that BW target with M193, the POI should be 1.47" below the POA, while if you are using that BW the POI should be 1.44" below the POA. Not a big difference at 25 yards, but you have to know it to get a good zero.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 11:57:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By bigcraig:
gotm4, I have never seen an Eotech mounted that far forward before. Is this where you prefer it? And in your experience, any advantages to your setup?



It's very fast this way, the reticle doesn't fish around in the sight as much and the sight doesn't block as much peripheral vision. And since Aimpoints and Eotechs are magnified there isn't really a proper eye relief.



I think you meant to say Aimpoints and EOTechs aren't magnified.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 2:59:34 PM EST
Which aperature should I use? I have an ARMS #40 flip up.

Thanks,

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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:49:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By killforfun:
When you are talking about ajusting you sights to make your rounds fall at a 100 yard zero do you suggest moving the front or rear sight, and what should i start off at on the back sight.



Elevation is adjusted by the front sight, and the front sight ONLY on the AR-15/M16 rifle. The rear sight is used strictly to adjust for windage. If you are using an A2 style sight (either through a detachable carry handle or a good sight like the LMT A2 sight) then you should do all sighting in with the wheel set to it's normal setting, 3 or 3/6. (Depending on the sight)



I have a new a3 and i havent even messed with anything on it yet. I am new to the 15 and I want to get good with it but I dont know much about it. I want it to be fessibleat a hundred yards or less and be able to move my rear sight and get a 200,300,400 yarders thanks in advance for your help guys.



The design of the A2 style sight is set up for known distance type shooting that you are talking about...the snag is that you will most likely never need the weapon at those longer ranges. If you plan on shooting CMP or some other known distance target shooting, the standard Marine sight in procedure should be the one you use.

If, however, you intend to use the rifle for self-defense/general merriment, another zero method is probably what you want.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:51:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By killforfun:
Also one more quick question when you are talking about the 100 yard zero are you saying to shoot at a hundred yard distance or use the 25 yard dist. Forgive me if I sound stupid but I have always used a scope since I was little and I am trying to wheen myself off the scope tittie



The target I posted should be set up and shot at 25 yards. By adjusting your sights where your point of aim is on the extended black line but your rounds fall inside the white square, you have set up your rifle so that your rounds will impact where your sights are at 100 yards.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:55:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2006 4:21:11 PM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Based on the bullet drop on the 25yd zero target, that's pretty much the same as the IBZ, except you now zero at 25 yd instead of at 50 yd. The trajectory puts it very close to the IBZ. The IBZ states to rotate to "3" (2 or 4 clicks up) to shoot at 300m, or you could just aim a tad higher. But this will come in handy at the range! Thanks john_wayne



It is probably pretty close to the IBZ, as the 5.56 has a pretty flat trajectory.

What convinced me was trying to sight down on Scottie when he was at the 100 yard line proned out...It was easy to see that trying to calculate holdover/under at closer ranges on a person trying to kill you sucks.

Do it as little as possible.

If you are really in a position where you do actually need to shoot at ranges out past 100 yards, a different sight setup might be what you need.

But since I am not in the .mil I can't see myself ever really needing to take a shot beyond 100 yards. If I must, I have also trained to use my sights out to 300 yards so I can do it if I need to. But at 300 yards I will have more time to calculate holdover than I would at 100 or less....

If you shoot 3 gun like gotM4 does, or if you are in other circumstances, you might want to use a different zero. Personally I always had trouble on the KDR using the Santose zero. I had absolutely no trouble with the 100 yard zero.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:57:30 PM EST
I understand the procedure, but Should I use the large aperture (normal -i think), or the small aperature (long range) for the 25 yard shots.

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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:57:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:
Good training there with you JW, that was a fun course I wish I could go back tomorrow.



You and me both. They actually had a Tactical Pistol II course at BW the following week, and it took every ounce of restraint I could muster not to take that one right after the carbine course.



Scotty and Kyle did convice me that fixed back-up sights are better than flip-ups. So I've reconfigured my 11.5" once again. (all my guns are really works in progress).


Here's what my 11.5" looked like at Blackwater.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/3bffbd7c.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/9c5cfa3c.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/a976d943.jpg


And this is what it looks like now.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/46ce7437.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/184e060d.jpg



Shooting Kyle's rifle made me want an Aimpoint worse than I did before....

I bought an LMT A2 style sight and replaced my carry-handle with it in preparation for mounting an Aimpoint someday...
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Posted: 6/11/2006 3:58:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2006 4:17:15 PM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
This is designed for what ammunition? M193?



I believe you can use it with basically any ammo you wish, as long as you use the same ammo. Meaning that if you zero with M193 and shoot M193 you should be fine.

All 55 grain ammo might not perform the same, however, so if you want to shoot something else regularly you might want to re-zero with that ammo.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:01:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By killforfun:
So how should I start out from step one with my sights? If i just get rid of the carry handle all together and get a scope which way should I go.I want something that i can put up on the shoulder quick and have a fast aqq



As far as fast aquisition of sights goes, the standard ghost ring setup of the iron sights works very well. For optics, you want a sight like the Aimpoint or the EOTech for quick aiming.

When using something like the EOTech or Aimpoint, you should always have sturdy iron sights as a backup. Optics die at the worst times, even good optics like the ones mentioned.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:03:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By TL697:
I understand the procedure, but Should I use the large aperture (normal -i think), or the small aperature (long range) for the 25 yard shots.

~Troy



For sighting your rifle in, always use the small aperture.
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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:10:16 PM EST
thank you
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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:17:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By TL697:
thank you



Happy to help!
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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:50:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2006 4:52:26 PM EST by gotm4]

Originally Posted By ODA_564:


For which ammunition?

My data shows that a 100 yard zero will have the following drop at 50 yards for the following ammunition:

XM193 - -0.70"" at 50 yards
77 gr SMK - -0.43" at 50 yards
TAP 75 gr - -0.55" at 50 yards
M855 - -0.56" at 50 yards
UMC 55 gr - -0.66" at 50 yards
Win 64 gr - -0.32" at 50 yards

That's at humidity of 67%, barometric pressure of 29.98in/HG, an altitude of 42', temperature of 62 degrees.




For 55gr FMJ with a BC of .243 going 3100fps with the sights 2.6" above the bore, I'm guessing at the velocity because I don't know the exact velocity out of my 20" fluted Bushy 1x9 twist bbl. The BC I got from the Sierra web site.

I used this ballistic calculator. www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

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Posted: 6/11/2006 4:54:26 PM EST
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:02:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
For which ammunition?

My data shows that a 100 yard zero will have the following drop at 50 yards for the following ammunition:

XM193 - -0.70"" at 50 yards
77 gr SMK - -0.43" at 50 yards
TAP 75 gr - -0.55" at 50 yards
M855 - -0.56" at 50 yards
UMC 55 gr - -0.66" at 50 yards
Win 64 gr - -0.32" at 50 yards

That's at humidity of 67%, barometric pressure of 29.98in/HG, an altitude of 42', temperature of 62 degrees.




For 55gr FMJ with a BC of .243 going 3100fps with the sights 2.6" above the bore, I'm guessing at the velocity because I don't know the exact velocity out of my 20" fluted Bushy 1x9 twist bbl. The BC I got from the Sierra web site.

I used this ballistic calculator. www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html




The BC of Federal M193's bullet is is .338. Remington UMC's 55 grain bullet is .202. The problem with using another bullet's BC (the Sierra) is that it maight not be the same. That's why your drop is calculated too low (1.6").
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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:06:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By MRW:
Can anyone tell how to use JW's target for a 50 yard zero instead of 100?



I use a target similar to this for both optics and irons.

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Posted: 6/11/2006 5:51:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TL697:
I understand the procedure, but Should I use the large aperture (normal -i think), or the small aperature (long range) for the 25 yard shots.

~Troy



For sighting your rifle in, always use the small aperture.



Please edjumakate me a bit on this, if someone wouldnt mind....

The small peep vs the big peep sight: iirc, isnt the small peep centered slightly higher over the bore than the big peep sight because the small peep sight is made for use at 300m+? My question is basically this: Does it matter what peep sight we use as long we use the same sight for actual use? I MUCH prefer to use the large peep sight vs the small peep sight when I use irons sights on my AR15.

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Posted: 6/11/2006 6:04:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By JRBL1A1:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TL697:
I understand the procedure, but Should I use the large aperture (normal -i think), or the small aperature (long range) for the 25 yard shots.

~Troy



For sighting your rifle in, always use the small aperture.



Please edjumakate me a bit on this, if someone wouldnt mind....

The small peep vs the big peep sight: iirc, isnt the small peep centered slightly higher over the bore than the big peep sight because the small peep sight is made for use at 300m+? My question is basically this: Does it matter what peep sight we use as long we use the same sight for actual use? I MUCH prefer to use the large peep sight vs the small peep sight when I use irons sights on my AR15.




I was always taught small=day, big=night (or low light).
You try to make something idiot proof, and along comes a better idiot!

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