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ipschoser1
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Posted: 2/15/2004 12:29:00 PM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2004 6:06:56 PM by ipschoser1]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I just can't do it. You know, spend $1000 on a Trijicon ACOG TA31 or TA11. Let's face it, the ACOG's cool factor is high but it's price is just to much for me to justify. That being the case, I've been looking for a viable alternative.

As a 3 gun competitor I'm well aware of the advantages a low power variable scope offers. In fact, it has advantages over the much vaunted ACOG such as much improved eye relief for shooting in unorthodox positions with less than perfect cheek weld and variable magnification for up close speed shooting as well as long range accuracy. These are BIG pluses! As you might expect, they are also much cheaper than the ACOG.

Now for the shortcomings. The standard low power variable doesn't sport military durability or the BAC illuminated reticle. Most have crosshairs instead of the more desireable triangle or doughnut reticles available in the ACOG. Being hunting scopes, the variables have some serious eye relief. Actually, this is an advantage from a shooting perspective but requires an extended rail of some sort for proper mounting on an AR.

In walks the Trijicon TR21 Accupoint!
Okay, now we're talking. This scope offers all the advantages of the low power variable and combines them with the illuminated BAC triangle! This baby is a 1.25x4x24mm. The triangle is 11MOA at 1.25x and 4MOA at 4x. It gives long range precision using the tip of the triangle at higer magnification and is very close to the capability of the Aimpoint Comp M2 if the whole 11MOA triangle is used for short range speed shooting. The best of both worlds! I can't find a situation where the TR21 doesn't excel, and believe me I've tried. It works in any condition from total darkness (tritium lamp) to bright sunlight. Even if the shooter is in a dark area shooting into a bright target area the black post reticle is boldly visable. There is even an adjustment to dim the fiber optic lighting if shooting from a brightly lit area into a dimly lit one! Awesome performance and versatility. Who could ask for more?

Now for the good news. SWFA has the TR21 on sale for $399! Even with a set of ARMS #22 rings I've got $540 invested, about half the cost of an ACOG. Fortunately, I already had an ARMS #38 S-ex rail.

Here's a few pics...



Here's a veiw thru the TR21 on a dreary, overcast day. Magnification is set at 1.25x

Devilito
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Posted: 2/15/2004 12:37:12 PM
just check this thread i started on the Valdada http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=181129 It has a lot of info on both of these scopes.
Hokie
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Posted: 2/15/2004 12:41:55 PM
Awesome post. I'm putting a 3X9 Accupoint on my 270 A-Bolt
At last, after 2000 years of work, the Illudiom "Pew36" Explosive Space Modulator!"
Devilito
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Posted: 2/15/2004 12:46:08 PM
IMO, Unless you're going to war and need the durability of the ACOG i think there are better scopes out there for range use including the one you mention and the IOR that not many people seem to have yet. The good part about the IOR is it has a donut reticle with range calculation abilities unlike scopes like the CQ/T. I also don't see this ability with the TR21 reticle as it is a simple triangle. Both look nice though. Even the CQ/T is great for range use. A lot of people on this board seem to buy scopes on the idea that WW3 is going to start and they need something that's going to survive the first wave of hydrogen bombs. Though not as durable as an aimpoint or acog, all the variable scopes seem durable enough and better suited for general range use or even hunting. It seems that many people, including myself, buy stuff on the sole basis that the military uses it. I am slowly learning that this is probably not the most intelligent way of going about deciding what is best for my AR.
ipschoser1
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Posted: 2/15/2004 12:57:29 PM
Originally Posted By Hokie: Awesome post. I'm putting a 3X9 Accupoint on my 270 A-Bolt
Yep, me too. This would be a super deer hunting combo!
El_Roto
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Posted: 2/15/2004 3:21:11 PM
[Last Edit: 2/15/2004 11:58:53 PM by El_Roto]
Unlike Devilito, and the others he painted with his assumptive brush, I don't buy equipment because the military uses it or because I preparing to survive WWIII (I doubt I'll survive 2010), I buy something because I define a set of parameters and find the stuff that best fills those points. If you like the Accupoint, the IOR, a toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle; fine, good for you, but stop accusing the people who buy higher priced optics of being wanna-be's or survivalist psychos, Devilito.
[b]Visit www.protacglobal.com [/b]
Hokie
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Posted: 2/15/2004 3:36:30 PM
Originally Posted By El_Roto: Unlike Devilito, and the others he painted with his assumptive brush, I don't buy equipment because the military uses it or because I preparing to survive WWIII (I doubt I'll survive 2010), I buy something because I define a set of parameters and find the stuff that best fills those points. If you like the Accupoint, the IOR, a toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle; fine, good for you, but stop accusing the people who buy higher priced optics of being wanna-be's or survivalist psycho's. BTW, $1000 for a TA31? What are you smoking? I got mine for $780 including shipping.
lol...simmer down soldier...wow who pissed in your cheerios? I paid $750 shipped with an ARMS 19S so chew on that -you're humble wannabe survivalist psycho, Hokie
toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle
BTW, what caliber is that TP scope calibrated to?[%|]
At last, after 2000 years of work, the Illudiom "Pew36" Explosive Space Modulator!"
CJan_NH
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Posted: 2/15/2004 4:09:58 PM
If you like the Accupoint, the IOR, a toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle; fine, good for you, but stop accusing the people who buy higher priced optics of being wanna-be's or survivalist psycho's.
Thank you-it's about time someone said it.
My wife wants me to buy her a [b]Bushmaster Lady[/b] [:O] [b]What's next, stigmata?[/b]
GunnyG
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Posted: 2/15/2004 4:19:52 PM
Originally Posted By Hokie: BTW, what caliber is that TP scope calibrated to?[%|]
Up to .50 BMG! Birdman has them in stock... [img]http://www.birdman.org/images/jadedbig.jpg[/img]
FOR all we have and are, For all our children’s fate, Stand up and meet the war. The Hun is at the gate! -Rudyard Kipling
El_Roto
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Posted: 2/15/2004 4:30:05 PM
Damn that Birdman, he's always one step ahead of the curve! [:D]
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El_Roto
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Posted: 2/15/2004 4:34:42 PM
[Last Edit: 2/15/2004 4:35:38 PM by El_Roto]
Originally Posted By Hokie: I paid $750 shipped with an ARMS 19S so chew on that
Double Damn! I violated El Roto's Internet Rule #1: Never mention how much you paid because someone will [i]always[/i] have gotten more for less. [hail2] Yah got me! [hail2]
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imposter
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Posted: 2/15/2004 4:56:26 PM
I just got mine the other day from SWFA with the red reticle. I had an ACOG. It was a nice little scope but the eye relief was just too short. BAC does work, but I compared the ACOG side-by-side an Aimpoint and the Aimpoint was clearly faster. Perhaps the ACOG was better at distance shots, but I actually shot better with irons than with the ACOG. The only benefit I saw to the ACOG was target identification. I bought the Accupoint hoping it would be a little faster than the ACOG. After playing for it with a bit, the lower power settings do result in more speed. I still do not think it is as fast as an Aimpoint, but I am pleased with it. I have not had a chance to test it at longer distances yet.
[size=1]I don't want to spend the rest of my life Looking at the barrel of an Armalite[/size=1]
CJan_NH
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Posted: 2/15/2004 5:02:19 PM
It was a nice little scope but the eye relief was just too short.
Which ACOG did you have? I have a TA11 and an 11D, and find that the eye relief is extremely generous. Is the eye relief of the other ACOGs (like the TA31) a lot different than the TA11?
My wife wants me to buy her a [b]Bushmaster Lady[/b] [:O] [b]What's next, stigmata?[/b]
ipschoser1
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Posted: 2/15/2004 6:41:27 PM
Originally Posted By El_Roto: BTW, $1000 for a TA31? What are you smoking? I got mine for $780 including shipping.
[url]http://www.riflescopes.com/store/departments.asp?dept=225[/url] Read the prices for yourself... BTW, what did you mount your TA31 with? Unless it's duct taped on, you dropped some more cash for a mount (assuming it's on a flattop). No flame of the TA31, it's an awesome scope, just more than I can justify spending.
ipschoser1
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Posted: 2/15/2004 6:51:16 PM
Originally Posted By imposter: I just got mine the other day from SWFA with the red reticle. I had an ACOG. It was a nice little scope but the eye relief was just too short. BAC does work, but I compared the ACOG side-by-side an Aimpoint and the Aimpoint was clearly faster. Perhaps the ACOG was better at distance shots, but I actually shot better with irons than with the ACOG. The only benefit I saw to the ACOG was target identification. I bought the Accupoint hoping it would be a little faster than the ACOG. After playing for it with a bit, the lower power settings do result in more speed. I still do not think it is as fast as an Aimpoint, but I am pleased with it. I have not had a chance to test it at longer distances yet.
Cool. Let us know how it works for you as time goes by. BTW, unfortunately SWFA now has the red Accupoints backordered.
jason_h
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Posted: 2/15/2004 9:33:42 PM
I have to agree with Devilito, just cause the military uses it doesn't mean it is right for you. Nobody said that the ACOG isn't a good scope or that it doesn't fulfill needs, it's just not the right scope for everyone. Sometimes it seems like this forum has turned into a fashion show, if you are not using and wearing what the "cool kids" are using, why you just don't rate and your gear is crap.
FULLMAGTAP
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Posted: 2/15/2004 10:07:39 PM
[Last Edit: 2/15/2004 10:08:51 PM by FULLMAGTAP]
About the Birdman. Fit and finish looks good but whats customer service like?
CJan_NH
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Posted: 2/15/2004 10:19:54 PM
Sometimes it seems like this forum has turned into a fashion show, if you are not using and wearing what the "cool kids" are using, why you just don't rate and your gear is crap.
Do you really feel that way? I don't get that impression at all-[b]especially[/b] at this site. I just recently became an ACOG owner. My father presented me with a TA11D as a Christmas present. Prior to that I was curious about the ACOGs (and I wanted to buy one) but I was having a tough time rationalizing an optic that was worth more money than the carbine it was attached to. After installing my Christmas present I finally understood what all the fuss was about, and just last week I took delivery of my second ACOG, a standard TA11. My ARs have never been state of the art, and they probably never will be. That being said I've never, ever felt the vibe that my stuff was considered "crap" by the high speed guys who frequent this place. There are many guys here who have collections that I could only dream about, but many of those same guys bend over backwards to answer questions and help people. Could it be that maybe you're projecting just a tiny little bit? Please don't take that as a cut-I am not trying to be an asshole. The community that I see is clearly different than the community you see-so I'm wondering which one of us has a skewed perspective.
My wife wants me to buy her a [b]Bushmaster Lady[/b] [:O] [b]What's next, stigmata?[/b]
imposter
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Posted: 2/15/2004 10:43:59 PM
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
It was a nice little scope but the eye relief was just too short.
Which ACOG did you have? I have a TA11 and an 11D, and find that the eye relief is extremely generous. Is the eye relief of the other ACOGs (like the TA31) a lot different than the TA11?
I had the 3x, the all-time champ of short eye relief. I believe they rate it at 1.4"; the 4x have 1.5". I really liked the scope, but it always felt like I had to stretch my neck a little, even nose to charging handle, to get a perfect sight picture. I probably could have shaved a little material off of the mount and moved it back a bit, but I kept hearing that the Eotech was the cat's meow so I sold the ACOG and bought an Eotech. Now I sold the Eotech to get the Accupoint. Through all this my Aimpoint has remained and will remain on my primary AR. BTW, I just tested the Accupoint for low light resolution versus a Vari-XIII (both at 3.5x), and they seemed comparable.
[size=1]I don't want to spend the rest of my life Looking at the barrel of an Armalite[/size=1]
Robertesq1
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Posted: 2/15/2004 10:51:13 PM
. tacked
CJan_NH
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Posted: 2/15/2004 10:52:28 PM
but I kept hearing that the Eotech was the cat's meow
An EOTech is going to be my next purchase [:)] I got to play with one recently and that thing was [b]FAST[/b]. I can understand why many consider it to be the fastest CQB optic. One of my shooting buddies has one forward mounted on his Colt LE6920 carbine. I was astounded at how quickly I could engage targets when using it.
My wife wants me to buy her a [b]Bushmaster Lady[/b] [:O] [b]What's next, stigmata?[/b]
3-gun
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Posted: 2/15/2004 11:36:21 PM
Originally Posted By El_Roto: Unlike Devilito, and the others he painted with his assumptive brush, I don't buy equipment because the military uses it or because I preparing to survive WWIII (I doubt I'll survive 2010), I buy something because I define a set of parameters and find the stuff that best fills those points. If you like the Accupoint, the IOR, a toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle; fine, good for you, but stop accusing the people who buy higher priced optics of being wanna-be's or survivalist psycho's. BTW, $1000 for a TA31? What are you smoking? I got mine for $780 including shipping.
Calm down,It's going to be ok.You sound a little on edge.Get out of the armchair and go shoot.It will make you feel better! [:D]
El_Roto
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Posted: 2/15/2004 11:45:25 PM
[Last Edit: 2/16/2004 1:11:45 AM by El_Roto]
"It's all about compromises" has been the mantra of this board's gurus. If you get magnification, you lose some speed, etc., etc. We decide what we want, what we can afford, and we go from there. This finger-pointing and name-calling is insane and I'm ashamed to have been a part of it. ipschoser, I'm so sorry your thread was hijacked, especially since I was the first to throw fire on the flames. Congratulations on your purchase and best of luck in kicking ass at your future matches. It's my sincerest wish that you're able to make us uber-dollar ACOG owners eat some crow when your Accupoint breaks the balls of the high-speed, low-drag competitors. -edited to add- It seems everyone's retailing the TA31 for $999 now. Since I bought mine I hadn't kept up with the price. I apologize for my nasty remark and will delete it immediately. In answer to your other point, mine's mounted to my carry handle - one of the reasons I liked the TA31 was its economy of having a mount built-in. (I'm not made of money, either.)
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garr
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Posted: 2/16/2004 12:03:24 AM
I have a 3X9 accupoint on an AR10 carbine for a while now and Love it.
ipschoser1
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Posted: 2/16/2004 9:36:48 AM
Originally Posted By El_Roto: ipschoser, I'm so sorry your thread was hijacked, especially since I was the first to throw fire on the flames. Congratulations on your purchase and best of luck in kicking ass at your future matches. It's my sincerest wish that you're able to make us uber-dollar ACOG owners eat some crow when your Accupoint breaks the balls of the high-speed, low-drag competitors.
No problem. Understand though, the intent is not to "bust the balls" of the ACOG guys. As I said, the ACOG has a very high cool factor and I'd love to own one it's just to much for me to justify for my uses. I do sincerely believe that for those who don't throw their rifles out of helicopters the Accupoint is a more versatile optic and thought other members here might be interested in it. I had never even seen one except in ads until I broke down and ordered one! That's why this post is up.
Hokie
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Posted: 2/16/2004 10:11:41 AM
Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
Originally Posted By El_Roto: ipschoser, I'm so sorry your thread was hijacked, especially since I was the first to throw fire on the flames. Congratulations on your purchase and best of luck in kicking ass at your future matches. It's my sincerest wish that you're able to make us uber-dollar ACOG owners eat some crow when your Accupoint breaks the balls of the high-speed, low-drag competitors.
No problem. Understand though, the intent is not to "bust the balls" of the ACOG guys. As I said, the ACOG has a very high cool factor and I'd love to own one it's just to much for me to justify for my uses. I do sincerely believe that for those who don't throw their rifles out of helicopters the Accupoint is a more versatile optic and thought other members here might be interested in it. I had never even seen one except in ads until I broke down and ordered one! That's why this post is up.
For what it's worth, you sir sold me on a 3X9 Accupoint for my 270. I've been eyeballing the Accupoint for a long time now and it just makes sense. It eradicates the need for see-thru irons. This way, with an Accupoint, I can use the same BAC feature on my deer rifle for close in shots and retain the 3X9 power the longer stuff. The Accupoint just makes sense for a hunting optic and I won't deny the implications by some that we DO go overboard with our gear sometimes...but hey, this IS AR15.com ya know...that's what we DO.[:D] But on the subject of the Accupoint, I think it's time that scope got the recognition it deserves. I'll post a review when I get mine...hopefully at the end of March. Again, great pics, especially the view thru.
At last, after 2000 years of work, the Illudiom "Pew36" Explosive Space Modulator!"
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