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Posted: 2/9/2015 1:03:56 AM EDT
NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags.
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Those are not heat treated. Brownells are, try the same test with a Brownells and see the difference.
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Can I send you my address to ship your remaining stock? I'll be glad to pay shipping. You won't want to profit from the sale of an inferior product to a fellow shooter, so you will gladly give them away.
Is that about right? |
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The important question is - how did they land? On the feed lips, etc?
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I've watched people drop loaded and unloaded al mags on concrete for the last 2-3 years.
Sounds like a brand problem. I've seen poly and steel mags die WAY faster. |
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The reason I wont share my mags with OP. Quit dropping your stuff.
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You have a vise? if the spot welds didn't beak you can probably adjust it back if you're careful.
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You have a vise? if the spot welds didn't beak you can probably adjust it back if you're careful. View Quote You are the man! I was able to squeeze it in my vise and it drops free now. But I don't know is anything changed reliability wise so I have to keep a Pmag in my go to gun. |
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Aluminum magazines are fine just be willing to throw them out without remorse.
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Afaik, Brownell's, NHMTG, and D&H are all heat-treated. May or may not be others as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Those are not heat treated. Brownells are, try the same test with a Brownells and see the difference. Afaik, Brownell's, NHMTG, and D&H are all heat-treated. May or may not be others as well. Then why is it that fully loaded D&H mags will deform enough on a minor drop to make them not drop free and Brownell's mags are not phased by that same drop? |
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Then why is it that fully loaded D&H mags will deform enough on a minor drop to make them not drop free and Brownell's mags are not phased by that same drop? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Those are not heat treated. Brownells are, try the same test with a Brownells and see the difference. Afaik, Brownell's, NHMTG, and D&H are all heat-treated. May or may not be others as well. Then why is it that fully loaded D&H mags will deform enough on a minor drop to make them not drop free and Brownell's mags are not phased by that same drop? Don't know. Just passing on what the mfr's & distributors say. NHMTG: "Heat treated, welded aluminum bodies, hard coated anodized for superior corrosion resistance" http://nhmtgmags.com/ PSA on D&H: "Aluminum Magazine Body is Heat Treated to T6, then Hardcoat Anodized" http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-d-h-5-56mm-30rd-aluminum-magazine-black-teflon-yellow-follower.html PSA on C-Products: 'heat treat to RC 38-42 minimum" http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/accessories/magazines/rifle-magazines/ar-15/c-products-defense-6-5-grendel-25rd-ss-magazine.html Another minute or two of Bing-ing found more links showing ASC and Cammenga also being heat-treated. If they are, I suspect others are as well. |
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I only destroyed two mags in Afghanistan in 3 years. That drop should not have killed that mag.
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Same thing happened with my Colt twenty. Loaded mag onto concrete, caused it to bow out enough that it was very difficult to inset into the magwell, and had no chance of dropping free. I smashed the sides with a hammer for like fifteen minutes and it made it easier to insert and remove but want 100% drop free. I got rid of it some time back.
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Same thing happened with my Colt twenty. Loaded mag onto concrete, caused it to bow out enough that it was very difficult to inset into the magwell, and had no chance of dropping free... View Quote Eactly. This is why anecdotal, one-off incidents are dangerous to base broad assumptions (and pontifications) on. Hopefully nobody will say a Colt is other than a premium AR magazine; yet on a given occasion, a drop on concrete was enough to damage one. Stuff happens, and all we can do is choose wisely and tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible. |
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I've seen plenty of P-mags crack. no piece of equipment is abuse-proof. http://i58.tinypic.com/9s5g6q.jpg http://i59.tinypic.com/2m2apdy.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/hur4tw.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/24e8k8z.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ldh.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/xeigas.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/nexqw0.gif View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's time to come over to the plastic side.... I've seen plenty of P-mags crack. no piece of equipment is abuse-proof. http://i58.tinypic.com/9s5g6q.jpg http://i59.tinypic.com/2m2apdy.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/hur4tw.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/24e8k8z.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ldh.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/xeigas.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/nexqw0.gif Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. |
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's time to come over to the plastic side.... I've seen plenty of P-mags crack. no piece of equipment is abuse-proof. http://i58.tinypic.com/9s5g6q.jpg http://i59.tinypic.com/2m2apdy.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/hur4tw.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/24e8k8z.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ldh.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/xeigas.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/nexqw0.gif Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. Drop it on the base, not the feed lips, that's how it bows out and causes this malfunction. I'd be interested to see that video. |
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Drop it on the base, not the feed lips, that's how it bows out and causes this malfunction. I'd be interested to see that video. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's time to come over to the plastic side.... I've seen plenty of P-mags crack. no piece of equipment is abuse-proof. http://i58.tinypic.com/9s5g6q.jpg http://i59.tinypic.com/2m2apdy.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/hur4tw.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/24e8k8z.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ldh.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/xeigas.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/nexqw0.gif Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. Drop it on the base, not the feed lips, that's how it bows out and causes this malfunction. I'd be interested to see that video. Ohh, wow. I assumed that you had dropped it on the feedlips since that is by far the weakest part of an AR mag. That said, we have dropped our mag on every side many times. It won't break or deform. I have a mag sitting here on my desk that was dropped 24 times on its feedlips and 24 times on its base plate (testing to see if the follower would break, it didn't) and that mag still functions 100% and drops free. These drops were from 8ft fully loaded on concrete. There is absolutely no question that our mag is tougher than a GI mag in every way (except high temps, our mag will melt at 700* F, but at that temp, even the aluminum gets a lot softer). There is no way under even the hardest of use that you are going to break our mag. Our goal is to change the way you guys think about AR mags. Our mags don't need to be toss away items. As long as you don't lose them, they will not need to be replaced. |
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's time to come over to the plastic side.... I've seen plenty of P-mags crack. no piece of equipment is abuse-proof. http://i58.tinypic.com/9s5g6q.jpg http://i59.tinypic.com/2m2apdy.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/hur4tw.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/24e8k8z.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ldh.jpg http://i57.tinypic.com/xeigas.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/nexqw0.gif Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. We have a video on Youtube showing our mag being dropped fully loaded from 20ft on concrete on the feedlips. The mag was not damaged. Hi, The mag may not crack or break, but what sort of does it do protecting the ammo? I've seen several instances were someone stepped on a plastic mag and the magazine came through fine, but the ammo was deformed enough it jammed going into the chamber. A magazine that is intact but still allows the ammo to deform is still a fail IMHO. Regards: |
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Hi, The mag may not crack or break, but what sort of does it do protecting the ammo? I've seen several instances were someone stepped on a plastic mag and the magazine came through fine, but the ammo was deformed enough it jammed going into the chamber. A magazine that is intact but still allows the ammo to deform is still a fail IMHO. Regards: View Quote That's a good question...I feel sorry for the poor mag that couldn't withstand someone standing on it. That said, our mag was run over, on concrete, by an 8000lb truck (front tire of a diesel). We even stopped the truck on top of our mag and it was not damaged. This was done with the magazine empty. My point is there is no way you are going to damage the rounds without completely crushing the mag first, in our case. And that certainly wont happen from being stepped on, no matter how hard you were to try. Even if the weight of that tuck were evenly distributed our mag had 2000lbs sitting on it. Now, one more thing I want to touch on is in the literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of drop tests I have observed if you drop a mag from high enough, espicially several times, the ammo will damage itself. The force of the ammo shifting inside the mag at the moment of impact can cause the the 5.56 rounds to press so hard against each other that I have seen the shoulder right where it bottle necks dent. That said, I have yet to see a round so damaged from any drop tests, including our 20ft tests on concrete, that it won't properly chamber, fire, and extract. So, the short answer to your question is no, on any normal drop heights, or crush tests, the ammo is absolutely not damaged in our mags. I know that some of you guys that don't have experience with our mags read these post and think that we are either making this stuff up, or exaggerating. I assure we are not. We encourage you to give our mags a try. We know your expectations will be exceeded. We are so confident in our mags that we offer a lifetime warranty. |
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. View Quote So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. |
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So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. I understand where you are coming from. And I agree whole heatedly about having a lifetime (and then some) supply. What I am saying is that to have a lifetime supply of our mags means you need a lot less mags. Everyone has seen what happens to mags in the field and when in hard use. I am not saying there will never be some unforeseen oddity that will destroy our mag. What I am saying is that we have tested them enough to know that most mags (as in 99.9%) will never see an impact capable of destroying our mag. This little mag sitting on my desk was literally dropped 24 times on its floor, 24 times on its feelips, 12 times on its spine, 12 times on the front, and 12 times on each side. These drops were fully loaded from 8ft on concrete. That mag now has over 3000 rounds through it and is still going strong. We could have kept going, but it got really boring dropping the same mag over and over again for over 2 hours. I seriously doubt any significant % of AR mags will ever see that amount of abuse in their entire life cycle. And just to be clear, our mags on not indestructible. You can easily destroy one using a dremel to cut it in half, like all mags. We have just done extensive testing to absolutely do our best to ensure that our mag will work for you when you need it to, even if you drop it or knock the crap out of it. And we believe that accidentally dropping your mag while getting it out of a pouch or stepping on it with your boot should not mean that you now have to replace that mag. Mike_P on this forum got a couple of our mags. He tried to beak one, but couldn't. Last time he posted about our mag he had 5000 rounds through that same poor mag that be beat the crap out of when he got it. |
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Eactly. This is why anecdotal, one-off incidents are dangerous to base broad assumptions (and pontifications) on. Hopefully nobody will say a Colt is other than a premium AR magazine; yet on a given occasion, a drop on concrete was enough to damage one. Stuff happens, and all we can do is choose wisely and tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Same thing happened with my Colt twenty. Loaded mag onto concrete, caused it to bow out enough that it was very difficult to inset into the magwell, and had no chance of dropping free... Eactly. This is why anecdotal, one-off incidents are dangerous to base broad assumptions (and pontifications) on. Hopefully nobody will say a Colt is other than a premium AR magazine; yet on a given occasion, a drop on concrete was enough to damage one. Stuff happens, and all we can do is choose wisely and tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible. Guess who makes Colt bramded magazines... |
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So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. The story of polymer mags on AR15.com over the last decade in 3 easy steps: 1. They don't break 2. Hey, mine broke, that's not supposed to happen?!?! 3. What do you expect? Magazines are disposable..... |
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It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags. It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. |
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Guess who makes Colt bramded magazines... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Same thing happened with my Colt twenty. Loaded mag onto concrete, caused it to bow out enough that it was very difficult to inset into the magwell, and had no chance of dropping free... Eactly. This is why anecdotal, one-off incidents are dangerous to base broad assumptions (and pontifications) on. Hopefully nobody will say a Colt is other than a premium AR magazine; yet on a given occasion, a drop on concrete was enough to damage one. Stuff happens, and all we can do is choose wisely and tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible. Guess who makes Colt bramded magazines... Shhhhh..... I know; NHMTG. But they can't be top-drawer stuff, since (so I've been told) they're not heat-treated. Don't mean to keep on with the dead-horse beating, but there are a lot of good magazines - and a lot of crap magazines - out there. I have my favorites as does most everybody, but that doesn't mean that 'our favorites' are the only good choices, nor the best choices. As long as we avoid the crap brands, avoid the suspect brands other than for testing and/or 'great bargain' reasons, and then test the ones we do buy, it's all good. But I guess it goes back to the fact that even some that are widely regarded as crap brands have some number of folks who have had good experiences with them, and even top-tier brands have lemons from time to time; so to me it's simply a matter of skewing the odds in my favor. Which goes back to overall brand reputation, rather than anecdotal incidents, regardless of whether those anecdotes are positive or negative. I believe the OP that his nhmtg got boogered when dropped. It happens sometimes. But it's not necessarily a universal indicator of an inherent fault or weakness with the nhmtg brand. Other than a few old Simmonds or Universal 20-rounders, I've damaged a number of AR mags over the decades, including Okay/NHMTG. I've also damaged Fords, GM's, and Dodges; my point is simply that while my personal experiences are true & real, they don't equate to blanket indictments - or endorsements - of the brands as a whole. |
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Those are not heat treated. Brownells are, try the same test with a Brownells and see the difference. View Quote Are Center and Okay mags heat treated ? View Quote Okay, yes. Their datasheet - www.okayind.com/pdf/Okay_SureFeed_Sellsheet_web.pdf On Center, can't find documentation; but since they're a mil supplier (and since even non-premium brands like ASC, C-Products, and Cammenga are), I'd bet heavily that they are. No insult meant by 'non-premium', I think it's a fair categorization. Frankly, up until a couple months ago, I didn't know that any aluminum AR mags other than Brownell's were heat treated. Turns out that a lot of them, and maybe even most of them, are. Brownell's just markets the point better. Also, no slight meant toward Brownell's at all - I'd absolutely put them in the 'top-tier' category; they're just not all by themselves in there. |
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The story of polymer mags on AR15.com over the last decade in 3 easy steps: 1. They don't break 2. Hey, mine broke, that's not supposed to happen?!?! 3. What do you expect? Magazines are disposable..... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. The story of polymer mags on AR15.com over the last decade in 3 easy steps: 1. They don't break 2. Hey, mine broke, that's not supposed to happen?!?! 3. What do you expect? Magazines are disposable..... The fact remains that polymer magazines will out last ALU magazines in almost every instance. Even a damaged PMag magazine will continue to run effectively run for thousands of rounds long after an ALU mag becomes unserviceable. Over the years of developing the PMag we have steady increased the strength of the magazine along with it's reliability to the point where the M3 PMag is rarely damaged at all through abuse of several deployments. For examples of this please see our PMag M3 vs USGI testing videos (high speed video with live fire full auto testing) here- PMag M3 Testing (youtube) In addition I will repost this post from another thread relevant to this discussion. The below is an internal document that we use to explain what we do and why we do it with magazine design, material, and testing, that has been asked for, and delivered externally to some folks that were interested in how and why the PMAG GEN M3 works as well as it does. To avoid repeated or rehashing the same information, I'll just repost in full. Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. This is another area where softer polymers fail, but you may not notice until an extended period left loaded, especially with heat cycling, like the trunk of a car, etc. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with USGI aluminum magazines, especially when lifecycle/service life is considered. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. |
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I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags. It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... |
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I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags. It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... When you come up with something, count me in. Thanks for any deals in advance. |
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I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags. It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... Do 5 for around current p-mag pricing $8-9 so forum member could test them out. |
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The fact remains that polymer magazines will out last ALU magazines in almost every instance. Even a damaged PMag magazine will continue to run effectively run for thousands of rounds long after an ALU mag becomes unserviceable. Over the years of developing the PMag we have steady increased the strength of the magazine along with it's reliability to the point where the M3 PMag is rarely damaged at all through abuse of several deployments. For examples of this please see our PMag M3 vs USGI testing videos (high speed video with live fire full auto testing) here- PMag M3 Testing (youtube) In addition I will repost this post from another thread relevant to this discussion. The below is an internal document that we use to explain what we do and why we do it with magazine design, material, and testing, that has been asked for, and delivered externally to some folks that were interested in how and why the PMAG GEN M3 works as well as it does. To avoid repeated or rehashing the same information, I'll just repost in full. Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. This is another area where softer polymers fail, but you may not notice until an extended period left loaded, especially with heat cycling, like the trunk of a car, etc. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with USGI aluminum magazines, especially when lifecycle/service life is considered. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. The story of polymer mags on AR15.com over the last decade in 3 easy steps: 1. They don't break 2. Hey, mine broke, that's not supposed to happen?!?! 3. What do you expect? Magazines are disposable..... The fact remains that polymer magazines will out last ALU magazines in almost every instance. Even a damaged PMag magazine will continue to run effectively run for thousands of rounds long after an ALU mag becomes unserviceable. Over the years of developing the PMag we have steady increased the strength of the magazine along with it's reliability to the point where the M3 PMag is rarely damaged at all through abuse of several deployments. For examples of this please see our PMag M3 vs USGI testing videos (high speed video with live fire full auto testing) here- PMag M3 Testing (youtube) In addition I will repost this post from another thread relevant to this discussion. The below is an internal document that we use to explain what we do and why we do it with magazine design, material, and testing, that has been asked for, and delivered externally to some folks that were interested in how and why the PMAG GEN M3 works as well as it does. To avoid repeated or rehashing the same information, I'll just repost in full. Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. This is another area where softer polymers fail, but you may not notice until an extended period left loaded, especially with heat cycling, like the trunk of a car, etc. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with USGI aluminum magazines, especially when lifecycle/service life is considered. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. Do you see metal mags give out in the cold before the polymer mags? How long do you cold soak at -60? How do your polymer mags stand up to chemicals such as oil, gasoline, diesel, acetone, etc.? |
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Do you see metal mags give out in the cold before the polymer mags? How long do you cold soak at -60? How do your polymer mags stand up to chemicals such as oil, gasoline, diesel, acetone, etc.? View Quote Our mags were at -60 for 48 hours, then removed and immediately dropped. We have tested our polymer in all of the transportational fluids, as well as many other chemicals. The plastic was submerged for 1 week. It was then removed and checked for any hazing or cracking. Then it was tested for tensile strength to see how much % wise was retained. Our plastic was unaffected by all of the following, and many more... DEET Oil Hydraulic Fluid Power Steering Fluid Gasoline Gasoline with 15% ethanol Jet Fuel Diesel Brake Fluid Hydrochloric Acid Sulfuric Acid Also, our plastic is not Hygroscopic, meaning it will not absorb or react with water. This is important because out mag will not swell in extremely humid environments. We are more than willing to match up with an aluminum GI mag in any environment or circumstance. We know our mag will come out on top every time. |
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The fact remains that polymer magazines will out last ALU magazines in almost every instance. Even a damaged PMag magazine will continue to run effectively run for thousands of rounds long after an ALU mag becomes unserviceable. Over the years of developing the PMag we have steady increased the strength of the magazine along with it's reliability to the point where the M3 PMag is rarely damaged at all through abuse of several deployments. For examples of this please see our PMag M3 vs USGI testing videos (high speed video with live fire full auto testing) here- PMag M3 Testing (youtube) In addition I will repost this post from another thread relevant to this discussion. The below is an internal document that we use to explain what we do and why we do it with magazine design, material, and testing, that has been asked for, and delivered externally to some folks that were interested in how and why the PMAG GEN M3 works as well as it does. To avoid repeated or rehashing the same information, I'll just repost in full. Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. This is another area where softer polymers fail, but you may not notice until an extended period left loaded, especially with heat cycling, like the trunk of a car, etc. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with USGI aluminum magazines, especially when lifecycle/service life is considered. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Our mag is not a pmag. It will not break or crack from being dropped. We designed our mags to withstand any abuse so it will last you the rest of your life. So I could buy one of your magazines and it's basically immortal from being dropped at reasonable heights? That's a big claim. I think everyone should strive to use the best magazines that exist but face the fact that magazines will break, are expendable and everyone should have a lifetime supply. The story of polymer mags on AR15.com over the last decade in 3 easy steps: 1. They don't break 2. Hey, mine broke, that's not supposed to happen?!?! 3. What do you expect? Magazines are disposable..... The fact remains that polymer magazines will out last ALU magazines in almost every instance. Even a damaged PMag magazine will continue to run effectively run for thousands of rounds long after an ALU mag becomes unserviceable. Over the years of developing the PMag we have steady increased the strength of the magazine along with it's reliability to the point where the M3 PMag is rarely damaged at all through abuse of several deployments. For examples of this please see our PMag M3 vs USGI testing videos (high speed video with live fire full auto testing) here- PMag M3 Testing (youtube) In addition I will repost this post from another thread relevant to this discussion. The below is an internal document that we use to explain what we do and why we do it with magazine design, material, and testing, that has been asked for, and delivered externally to some folks that were interested in how and why the PMAG GEN M3 works as well as it does. To avoid repeated or rehashing the same information, I'll just repost in full. Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. This is another area where softer polymers fail, but you may not notice until an extended period left loaded, especially with heat cycling, like the trunk of a car, etc. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with USGI aluminum magazines, especially when lifecycle/service life is considered. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. I will refer you to "the unscientific plastic magazine test" on this very forum. Most magazines broke the first time they were dropped. Most of the newer polymer magazines are probably tougher than the 35 year old(50 yr old design when talking about 20 rounders) USGI aluminum magazine design. The only magazine that didn't break was Lancer because the feed lips are reinforced. Comparing new mags against magazines designed 35 years ago is....well.....a bit weak. |
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Aluminum magazines are fine just be willing to throw them out without remorse. View Quote This. Mags are disposable items. If it can be bent back like it was in this case, then keep on truckin' til there's no saving it or it no longer works correctly. At which point throw it away or use it as a target, and buy some more |
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This. Mags are disposable items. If it can be bent back like it was in this case, then keep on truckin' til there's no saving it or it no longer works correctly. At which point throw it away or use it as a target, and buy some more View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Aluminum magazines are fine just be willing to throw them out without remorse. This. Mags are disposable items. If it can be bent back like it was in this case, then keep on truckin' til there's no saving it or it no longer works correctly. At which point throw it away or use it as a target, and buy some more I think it's important to clarify that we are not saying that GI mags are bad or won't work. We are saying that our mag is a better choice and will last much longer, especially under hard use. The other thing to think about with these mags and how tough they are is this; you may not always be in a position to toss and replace your damaged mag. If you were in a life and death situation and you accidentally dropped your extra mag under a high stress reload wouldn't you want a mag that absolutely would not be damaged? Or a mag that more than likely would be damaged from a drop? It's not about having a mag that is ok or good enough, it's about having the pace of mind knowing you have the toughest, most reliable mag possible. It's the same reason you want a high quality rifle, you know it's going to work when you need it most. |
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I think it's important to clarify that we are not saying that GI mags are bad or won't work. We are saying that our mag is a better choice and will last much longer, especially under hard use. The other thing to think about with these mags and how tough they are is this; you may not always be in a position to toss and replace your damaged mag. If you were in a life and death situation and you accidentally dropped your extra mag under a high stress reload wouldn't you want a mag that absolutely would not be damaged? Or a mag that more than likely would be damaged from a drop? It's not about having a mag that is ok or good enough, it's about having the pace of mind knowing you have the toughest, most reliable mag possible. It's the same reason you want a high quality rifle, you know it's going to work when you need it most. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Aluminum magazines are fine just be willing to throw them out without remorse. This. Mags are disposable items. If it can be bent back like it was in this case, then keep on truckin' til there's no saving it or it no longer works correctly. At which point throw it away or use it as a target, and buy some more I think it's important to clarify that we are not saying that GI mags are bad or won't work. We are saying that our mag is a better choice and will last much longer, especially under hard use. The other thing to think about with these mags and how tough they are is this; you may not always be in a position to toss and replace your damaged mag. If you were in a life and death situation and you accidentally dropped your extra mag under a high stress reload wouldn't you want a mag that absolutely would not be damaged? Or a mag that more than likely would be damaged from a drop? It's not about having a mag that is ok or good enough, it's about having the pace of mind knowing you have the toughest, most reliable mag possible. It's the same reason you want a high quality rifle, you know it's going to work when you need it most. I agree with what you're saying, but I didn't say anything even close to GI mags being my go-to mags. My go-to mags are and will continue to be pmags. I've yet to have one go down on me in any way shape or form, so I don't have any reason to attempt to put faith in anybody elses. They're GWOT proven. I understand you're trying to get your product out there, but I think you're pushing a little too hard here. Not every comment needs to be irrelevantly replied to with why you think we should buy your mags. I was simply telling the OP that mags should be looked at as disposable items, not lifelong sentimental items. |
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I agree with what you're saying, but I didn't say anything even close to GI mags being my go-to mags. My go-to mags are and will continue to be pmags. I've yet to have one go down on me in any way shape or form, so I don't have any reason to attempt to put faith in anybody elses. They're GWOT proven. I understand you're trying to get your product out there, but I think you're pushing a little too hard here. Not every comment needs to be irrelevantly replied to with why you think we should buy your mags. I was simply telling the OP that mags should be looked at as disposable items, not lifelong sentimental items. View Quote Hey Milspec I certainly didn't mean to come across as being pushy. I also didn't mean to get in the middle of you talking with the OP. I just felt that this thread had moved to a plastic vs GI thread and that is what I was speaking to. I know we have a long way to go to convince everyone that our claims are true. I will bow out now as to not seem like I am trying to hijack the OPs thread. Sorry again. |
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Hey Milspec I certainly didn't mean to come across as being pushy. I also didn't mean to get in the middle of you talking with the OP. I just felt that this thread had moved to a plastic vs GI thread and that is what I was speaking to. I know we have a long way to go to convince everyone that our claims are true. I will bow out now as to not seem like I am trying to hijack the OPs thread. Sorry again. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I agree with what you're saying, but I didn't say anything even close to GI mags being my go-to mags. My go-to mags are and will continue to be pmags. I've yet to have one go down on me in any way shape or form, so I don't have any reason to attempt to put faith in anybody elses. They're GWOT proven. I understand you're trying to get your product out there, but I think you're pushing a little too hard here. Not every comment needs to be irrelevantly replied to with why you think we should buy your mags. I was simply telling the OP that mags should be looked at as disposable items, not lifelong sentimental items. Hey Milspec I certainly didn't mean to come across as being pushy. I also didn't mean to get in the middle of you talking with the OP. I just felt that this thread had moved to a plastic vs GI thread and that is what I was speaking to. I know we have a long way to go to convince everyone that our claims are true. I will bow out now as to not seem like I am trying to hijack the OPs thread. Sorry again. No worries man |
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That mag you dropped should be a training mag from now on, OP
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I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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NHMGT mag on a concrete floor. Won't drop free now. I think I am done on AL mags. It's time to come over to the plastic side.... You can drop our mags from 20ft on the feedlips on concrete and it won't hurt them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uvGtDdMZ8 I'm going to have to try out your mags since you're so sure of their durability. How about offer a 5 pack deal for $30 shipped to us Arfcommers. Then we can torture test them so to speak and post about them in your industry forum. That way you all get great real world feedback on one of your products performance and some of the skeptics may be convinced that you do in fact have the superior mag. I can't wait to try your Glock mag too. I'm not sure we can do 5 for $30. But we will talk it over and see about doing some kind of deal for a certain number of forum members for tests.... Magazine manufacturer's FEAR my tests! http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=610837 |
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Magazine manufacturer's FEAR my tests! http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=610837 View Quote Haha, we don't fear your rock drop. In fact, we welcome it. You won't break our mag. |
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Haha, we don't fear your rock drop. In fact, we welcome it. You won't break our mag. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Magazine manufacturer's FEAR my tests! http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=610837 Haha, we don't fear your rock drop. In fact, we welcome it. You won't break our mag. Y'all make it sound like your magazines are the cats tits, last time I bought the new "wonder item" it ended up being used for target practice. Id be more then down for testing these mags that are supposed to be the greatest of the great. As for the op, my 190lb self fell onto concrete and happened to use a 20rd loaded pmag to break my fall. Results: the magazine faired much better then my ass. I have one Alu mag that came with an RRA ar and it doesn't have more then 60 rounds though it. Pmag are my go to mags. I picked up 6 more and like them a lot. Although I have one m3 that really doesn't like my rifle. All of the other ones have worked flawlessly. |
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Quoted:
Haha, we don't fear your rock drop. In fact, we welcome it. You won't break our mag. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Magazine manufacturer's FEAR my tests! http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=610837 Haha, we don't fear your rock drop. In fact, we welcome it. You won't break our mag. I'll test the heck out of a mag and post video. |
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We are currently sold out of both the coupled and non-coupled mags, but once this next batch is made, we will offer some discounts for you guys to get some and test them out. All we ask is that you all give them a try, we know you will be impressed.
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