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trdr_vix
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Posted: 7/31/2012 7:01:48 AM

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I posted this on the Magpul forum with no response, any guidance is appreciated.

I just returned from the range after a disappointed experience with my brandy new Spikes upper on a PWA pre ban lower. I was finally able to do the sight zeroing I wanted to get done but had significant problems with ammo feed and failure to bolt lock on last round. I use 5 of the 20 rd. pmags. I had about a dozen failure to feed occurences and only one good bolt lock back after running 7 20 rd. mag loads. After I got home I examined the problem in detail. I first suspected my upper, but easily cleared that up with a little close examination.

Problem 1 - The rounds become slightly canted and stick in the mag, I noticed a problem originally loading the mags with stripper clips, but didn't think too much ot it. Rounds increasingly fail to feed as you get to the lower rounds (16-20). You can replicate the canting issue by pushing down with rounds in the mag.
Problem 2 - The follower sticks and becomes slight canted back and won't push the bolt catch up all the way..The follower can stick and cant back more than the 1 mm overlap rise needed to raise the bolt catch up after the last round...I repeated this problem and can see/measure it clearly with all 5 of the mags...this is not a weapon issue, clearly a mag issue.

You can replicate and measure these issues...I also think that there may also be a systemic friction issue with these composite/polymer mags. You can clearly sense the sticking when pushing rounds up and down in a partially loaded mag.

I have seen previous threads on this but no update. Has MAGPUL put out any info on these problems? What is the latest on this?
Can anyone recommend a site selling good dependable USGI 20 Rd. metal mags in black?
Thanks
dudeinmo
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Posted: 7/31/2012 12:11:13 PM
Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
I posted this on the Magpul forum with no response, any guidance is appreciated.

I just returned from the range after a disappointed experience with my brandy new Spikes upper on a PWA pre ban lower. I was finally able to do the sight zeroing I wanted to get done but had significant problems with ammo feed and failure to bolt lock on last round. I use 5 of the 20 rd. pmags. I had about a dozen failure to feed occurences and only one good bolt lock back after running 7 20 rd. mag loads. After I got home I examined the problem in detail. I first suspected my upper, but easily cleared that up with a little close examination.

Problem 1 - The rounds become slightly canted and stick in the mag, I noticed a problem originally loading the mags with stripper clips, but didn't think too much ot it. Rounds increasingly fail to feed as you get to the lower rounds (16-20). You can replicate the canting issue by pushing down with rounds in the mag.
Problem 2 - The follower sticks and becomes slight canted back and won't push the bolt catch up all the way..The follower can stick and cant back more than the 1 mm overlap rise needed to raise the bolt catch up after the last round...I repeated this problem and can see/measure it clearly with all 5 of the mags...this is not a weapon issue, clearly a mag issue.

You can replicate and measure these issues...I also think that there may also be a systemic friction issue with these composite/polymer mags. You can clearly sense the sticking when pushing rounds up and down in a partially loaded mag.

I have seen previous threads on this but no update. Has MAGPUL put out any info on these problems? What is the latest on this?
Can anyone recommend a site selling good dependable USGI 20 Rd. metal mags in black?
Thanks


I guess I feel lucky. Every 20 round PMAG I have runs flawlessly in all my rifles.
Justin-Beard
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Posted: 7/31/2012 12:17:12 PM
[Last Edit: 7/31/2012 12:19:32 PM by Justin-Beard]
We ship massive amounts of these 20-rounders a year and in the vast majority of cases they work just fine. However, sometimes some guns just don't like some products. Please contact our Tech Support Dept. for assistance.

Regardless, we are constantly updating our products as we're always trying to improve upon what we've already accomplished. Please keep any eye on our website for news and updates:
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JUSTIN BEARD
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trdr_vix
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Posted: 7/31/2012 12:59:21 PM
I don't understand how>>>
when I push down slightly on the back of the follower on an inserted empty mag and when it sticks down in the back and doesn't come up all the way and push bolt catch up enough to engage the catch while I am manually holding the charging handle back, that is a gun problem and not a mag problem....if I tap the back of the follower with my finger it then comes up another couple of mm, the follower seats correctly against the top of the mag and the bolt catch is engaged...clearly a canting problem with the mag follower...pretty easy to see and test.
Justin-Beard
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Posted: 7/31/2012 1:24:21 PM
[Last Edit: 7/31/2012 1:26:08 PM by Justin-Beard]
Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
I don't understand how>>>
when I push down slightly on the back of the follower on an inserted empty mag and when it sticks down in the back and doesn't come up all the way and push bolt catch up enough to engage the catch while I am manually holding the charging handle back, that is a gun problem and not a mag problem....if I tap the back of the follower with my finger it then comes up another couple of mm, the follower seats correctly against the top of the mag and the bolt catch is engaged...clearly a canting problem with the mag follower...pretty easy to see and test.

I don't know, could be a problem with the mags. Contact our Tech Support Dept. and we'll get some replacements out to try.

Note that the PMAG 20 does NOT have an anti-tilt follower. All straight-bodied magazines require a follower that can tilt to accommodate the tapered cartridge stack.

JUSTIN BEARD
Sales and Service Manager
Magpul Industries Corp.
1-877-4MAGPUL
mdean2011
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Posted: 8/1/2012 2:17:57 AM
I bought 10 20 round Pmags a few weeks ago. Out of all of them, I only had 1 problem Pmag. To fix it, I just dremeled the rear of the mag a little and it functioned fine after that. Ive seen a few reviews online about them not being as good as the 30 rounders, but mine function great now. No problems since then. Magpul makes some solid products and stands by them as well. I think a lot more companies should take note of what Magpul does...
SkipD
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Posted: 8/1/2012 6:09:54 AM
[Last Edit: 8/1/2012 8:56:31 AM by SkipD]
Though I have not had time to get out to the range with my five new 20-round PMAG magazines, I had a lot of problems with them when manually cycling dummy rounds (real cartridge cases and bullets but no powder or primers) through my AR. I would get the occasional failure to properly strip a round out of the magazine (the round winds up badly bent by the bolt jamming into the side of the cartridge case - Problem 1 in the OP). I also had a lot of problems with the bolt not locking back after ejecting the last round.

The feeding problem seems to be resolved after I smoothed up a lot of rough areas in the magazines and on the followers. I also waxed the interiors of the magazines and, more importantly, the springs with Johnson's paste wax (all excess wax carefully wiped out and surfaces left totally dry). The feel when I manually depress the followers is MUCH smoother operation now. They all used to feel quite gritty when depressing the followers with a narrow block of wood (such as a ruler).

The bolt lockback issue is now resolved. I discovered that the bolt catch was rubbing on the rear surface of the magazine and the friction was not being overcome by the upward pressure of the follower on the bolt catch's actuating arm. I filed a little off the rear face of the u-shaped opening of the magazine (shortening the front-to-back dimension by about .020") to allow clearance between the bolt catch and the rear face of the magazine. To see this interference, disassemble the rifle and work with only the lower with a magazine installed. While manually pushing on the magazine follower, carefully observe the rear surface of the magazine and the bolt catch. The bolt catch had been scraping on the rear surface of the magazine and now I have about .010" to .015" clearance between the two. After this tweak, I have had no failures of the bolt locking back after ejecting the last cartridge.
trdr_vix
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Posted: 8/1/2012 12:49:40 PM
Originally Posted By Justin-Beard:
Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
I don't understand how>>>
when I push down slightly on the back of the follower on an inserted empty mag and when it sticks down in the back and doesn't come up all the way and push bolt catch up enough to engage the catch while I am manually holding the charging handle back, that is a gun problem and not a mag problem....if I tap the back of the follower with my finger it then comes up another couple of mm, the follower seats correctly against the top of the mag and the bolt catch is engaged...clearly a canting problem with the mag follower...pretty easy to see and test.

I don't know, could be a problem with the mags. Contact our Tech Support Dept. and we'll get some replacements out to try.

Note that the PMAG 20 does NOT have an anti-tilt follower. All straight-bodied magazines require a follower that can tilt to accommodate the tapered cartridge stack.



Justin...thank you for the response...however, what you just said was that all 20rd. pmags are not designed correctly ("require a follow") and possibly may not work right (recall them?)

SkipD...thanks for backing up both of my observations. I'll take a look tonight at what is causing the rear canting of the follower, I was also doing this test with my upper removed but did not pay attention to possible interfernce with the bolt catch, but I did do a test by pushing down the rear of a mag follower in my hand slightly and get it to cant slightly down, outside of the gun. Regarding the failure to feed problem, thanks for your fix, however I am not akin to having to wax down a brand new product to make it work, that seems rather bunky to me.
SkipD
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Posted: 8/1/2012 1:34:23 PM

Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
SkipD...thanks for backing up both of my observations. I'll take a look tonight at what is causing the rear canting of the follower, I was also doing this test with my upper removed but did not pay attention to possible interfernce with the bolt catch, but I did do a test by pushing down the rear of a mag follower in my hand slightly and get it to cant slightly down, outside of the gun. Regarding the failure to feed problem, thanks for your fix, however I am not akin to having to wax down a brand new product to make it work, that seems rather bunky to me.
I believe that the roughness of the spring surface was the biggest cause of the "gritty" feel I experienced with the new 20rd PMAG magazines. I forgot to mention that I used a 3M scrub pad to smooth off the spring's outer surfaces before applying the wax. The total job of smoothing out some molding lines in the plastic parts (body and follower), smoothing the spring's surfaces, and the wax job has made a tremendous difference in how smoothly the follower can move in the magazine. This means that there's now less to hang up the movement of the follower and cartridges in the magazine.

If my work had not solved the problem, I would be on the hunt for a stronger magazine spring.

Justin-Beard
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Posted: 8/1/2012 1:38:14 PM
Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
Originally Posted By Justin-Beard:
Originally Posted By trdr_vix:
I don't understand how>>>
when I push down slightly on the back of the follower on an inserted empty mag and when it sticks down in the back and doesn't come up all the way and push bolt catch up enough to engage the catch while I am manually holding the charging handle back, that is a gun problem and not a mag problem....if I tap the back of the follower with my finger it then comes up another couple of mm, the follower seats correctly against the top of the mag and the bolt catch is engaged...clearly a canting problem with the mag follower...pretty easy to see and test.

I don't know, could be a problem with the mags. Contact our Tech Support Dept. and we'll get some replacements out to try.

Note that the PMAG 20 does NOT have an anti-tilt follower. All straight-bodied magazines require a follower that can tilt to accommodate the tapered cartridge stack.

Justin...thank you for the response...however, what you just said was that all 20rd. pmags are not designed correctly ("require a follow") and possibly may not work right (recall them?)

SkipD...thanks for backing up both of my observations. I'll take a look tonight at what is causing the rear canting of the follower, I was also doing this test with my upper removed but did not pay attention to possible interfernce with the bolt catch, but I did do a test by pushing down the rear of a mag follower in my hand slightly and get it to cant slightly down, outside of the gun. Regarding the failure to feed problem, thanks for your fix, however I am not akin to having to wax down a brand new product to make it work, that seems rather bunky to me.

No. What I meant is that all larger capacity straight-bodied centerfire rifle mags, regardless of manufacturer, MUST have a tilting follower to accommodate the taper inherent in the cartridge itself. What this means is that if you poke your finger or whatever on the follower you'll be able to make it tilt and this is nothing out of the ordinary at all. Proper functioning with cartridges while in the gun should not be a problem (assuming there are no issues with the gun itself or with the particular cartridge used). Also, you should not have to wax or lube anything at any time on any of our mags...

As mentioned earlier, please contact us directly for replacements to try to make sure there are no issues with the mags themselves. Even though we have extremely low defective rates, occasionally bad ones can pop up now and again. Or, if you just aren't happy with their performance and feel they will not suit your needs you are welcome to return them for credit under our 60-day return policy as noted here:
Shipping and Returns FAQ

JUSTIN BEARD
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Magpul Industries Corp.
1-877-4MAGPUL
SkipD
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Posted: 8/1/2012 2:28:23 PM

Originally Posted By Justin-Beard:

Also, you should not have to wax or lube anything at any time on any of our mags...

I did experience a roughness when manually pushing on the followers in all of the five 20rd PMAG magazines I bought a couple of months ago. I bought them from three different sources and found two different manufacturing date codes on them. The springs in all of them were a bit rough and my polishing the springs and then applying a light coat of wax on the springs and inner surfaces of the magazine bodies made a tremendous difference in how smooth the movement was. All five of my 30rd PMAGS which I bought in December operated just as smooth as delivered as my tweaked 20rd magazines.

mutiger
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Posted: 8/1/2012 3:36:44 PM
Originally Posted By SkipD:

Originally Posted By Justin-Beard:

Also, you should not have to wax or lube anything at any time on any of our mags...

I did experience a roughness when manually pushing on the followers in all of the five 20rd PMAG magazines I bought a couple of months ago. I bought them from three different sources and found two different manufacturing date codes on them. The springs in all of them were a bit rough and my polishing the springs and then applying a light coat of wax on the springs and inner surfaces of the magazine bodies made a tremendous difference in how smooth the movement was. All five of my 30rd PMAGS which I bought in December operated just as smooth as delivered as my tweaked 20rd magazines.



Justin, while you are keeping an eye on this thread, do you guys have an approx ETA on the new PMAG 30 M3? TIA
Justin-Beard
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Posted: 8/1/2012 3:54:29 PM
Originally Posted By mutiger:
Originally Posted By SkipD:
Originally Posted By Justin-Beard:

Also, you should not have to wax or lube anything at any time on any of our mags...
I did experience a roughness when manually pushing on the followers in all of the five 20rd PMAG magazines I bought a couple of months ago. I bought them from three different sources and found two different manufacturing date codes on them. The springs in all of them were a bit rough and my polishing the springs and then applying a light coat of wax on the springs and inner surfaces of the magazine bodies made a tremendous difference in how smooth the movement was. All five of my 30rd PMAGS which I bought in December operated just as smooth as delivered as my tweaked 20rd magazines.

Justin, while you are keeping an eye on this thread, do you guys have an approx ETA on the new PMAG 30 M3? TIA

Sorry, no ETA. Still testing and tweaking. The first production ready batches will be going to MIL/LEO and OEMs for evaluation and realistically we'll be looking at a Fall release for public distribution
JUSTIN BEARD
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GANDYDANCER
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Posted: 8/1/2012 4:40:35 PM
Interesting that I found this here. I just did some shooting this morning using a 20 round PMag and it would not push up the last 2 rounds to be fed. I was also using 30 round PMags and they gave no problems. I thought it was just a quirk at the time. Maybe not??




GD
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Posted: 8/4/2012 2:59:12 AM
I have two of the 20rd Pmags and perfer to use them when shotting phrone and bench rest BUT I also have a BAD Lever and Love how it helps with the function of my rifle. I had no problems with the setup untill after the first 300 rounds or so through the rifle and now the 20 round Pmags won't hold open the bolt after the last shot. If I remove the BAD Lever or use the 30 round Pmags I have no problem. But with my bipod set up and the way i shoot I cant use the 30 rounders when phrone or bench. I called customer service they said it is because of the tilt follower. it dosen't have the ablility to over come the extra mass of the BAD Lever. I haven't found any fix for this yet other then getting the Bushmaster 20 round curved mags but I don't know if there gonna be to long to shoot with the way I like. I have already gone threw the rifle and checked for over or under gasing or short stroking and none of those are an issue.

Has anyone come up with a fix for this?

Sorry not trying to HI-Jack this Thread
GVShooter
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Posted: 8/4/2012 2:10:42 PM
I also have had occasional FT feed with my 20 rd pmags. Op description sounds similar to my experience. They do fine most of the time.
Leprechaun-33-
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Posted: 8/4/2012 2:31:46 PM
Reasons why I do not like "Plastic Mags" or polymer or what ever you want to call them;

1. They are plastic and im sure plastic on plastic wear will eventually cause some kind of flaw.

2. Theres a reason why the Army banned the Pmags (this i dont know why but im sure theres a good reason)

3. I prefer a metal mag that way they will last pretty much forever.

The Americans back in the day used to make steel and aluminum products would last forever. This age of plastics and such, just seem cheap and easily breakable. Old school shit used to always last forever, nowadays companys seem to make crap which yes may be cheap, but you will have to purchase another one in a few years. (this goes for all types of machinery, cars, etc) Even houses today are made cheap as shit.
Joe_Pennsy
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Posted: 8/4/2012 3:01:42 PM
Originally Posted By Leprechaun-33-:
Reasons why I do not like "Plastic Mags" or polymer or what ever you want to call them;



2. Theres a reason why the Army banned the Pmags (this i dont know why but im sure theres a good reason)



They didn't: http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1
SASS
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Posted: 8/4/2012 9:24:44 PM
Reading the OP....I didn't think you could USE Stripper Clips with Pmags...
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Logicgear
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Posted: 8/16/2012 3:27:14 AM
Originally Posted By Logicgear:
I have two of the 20rd Pmags and perfer to use them when shotting phrone and bench rest BUT I also have a BAD Lever and Love how it helps with the function of my rifle. I had no problems with the setup untill after the first 300 rounds or so through the rifle and now the 20 round Pmags won't hold open the bolt after the last shot. If I remove the BAD Lever or use the 30 round Pmags I have no problem. But with my bipod set up and the way i shoot I cant use the 30 rounders when phrone or bench. I called customer service they said it is because of the tilt follower. it dosen't have the ablility to over come the extra mass of the BAD Lever. I haven't found any fix for this yet other then getting the Bushmaster 20 round curved mags but I don't know if there gonna be to long to shoot with the way I like. I have already gone threw the rifle and checked for over or under gasing or short stroking and none of those are an issue.

Has anyone come up with a fix for this?

Sorry not trying to HI-Jack this Thread


I went out to the gravel pit with a buddy to sight in my new vortex optic and when I sat down to shoot I remembered that I needed to put some oil in the upper and BCG because the rifle has been in the safe for a few weeks with just grease. So I shot some oil in and cycled the upper a few time then inserted the 20 rounder and started shooting then on the last round it locked open. Then I realized it did and thoguht about it and remembered the guy at Rainier Arms told me that AR platform rifles like to run "wet" and realized I hadn't ran the rifle wet "with extra oil" the last few time out.

Anyone have any ideas why it would work right with extra oil? I will be going shooting in another week and a half and we'll see if this works again.