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Posted: 7/17/2017 7:12:00 PM EDT
Around Desert Storm of course.
Anyone old enough and into ARs or other guns and such to remember how much variety there was in .223 / 5.56 back then? Could you even get 5.56 surplus back then? Was it mostly 55 and 62 grain fmj and 55 grains soft points? I really don't remember. The shooting I did mostly then was .30-06 or .30-30 soft points. I don't even recall seeing .223 on shelves. But I wasn't really looking. I'm pretty sure there was a 62 grain match hollow point loading at that time. Because I remember reading about the AMU team starting to shoot A1's at Perry at some point before the A2 came out. And I believe they used that Hornady 62 grain BTHP bullet. I'm guessing there were a lot of varmint loadings at that time. 50, 52, 55 grain ballistic tips, etc. |
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only a couple companies made AR-15's and they were nowhere as popular. At that time, SKS's were $69 and AK's were $159. meanwhile a Colt Sporter was around $800+
Everyone I knew had an AK. I bought ammo from the Sportsmans guide and it was surplus. I don't know about variety, but I remember it being around 8-12 cents per round. |
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Around 1998 I used to buy Canadian surplus 556 and 303 for 10cent. I used to shoot it into the lake to watch it splash. . Aks were 200-250$ and local gun shows had 3 brands of ARs Colt, dmps, bushmaster. Colts were 8-900$, dmps were 7-800$ and bushmasters were 6-700$. I bought the mid grade dmps.
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I can take you back even more. I bought a Colt SP1 back in 1981, PMC sold M193 in camo boxes back then. Fast forward to 1986/87 bought a Colt Delta Hbar and you could get Yugo SS109 ammo.
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only a couple companies made AR-15's and they were nowhere as popular. At that time, SKS's were $69 and AK's were $159. meanwhile a Colt Sporter was around $800+ Everyone I knew had an AK. I bought ammo from the Sportsmans guide and it was surplus. I don't know about variety, but I remember it being around 8-12 cents per round. View Quote Anybody remember if there was much match ammo back in the early 90's? Anyone know when the heavier stuff came out? Just an FYI, I do know that there was fmj 68/77 grain stuff for the stoner rifle in Vietnam. Or something close to that. I've never seen any of it. |
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Gold Medal Match 69 smk, then Hornady 68 gr. is all I remember for "match" ammo. US Surplus M193, Win. USA 5.56, and camo box PMC 193 remember quite a bit.
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Not surplus, but there was the Chi-Com ammo. $65-75 a case was good.... Still have some around here somewhere...
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During that time frame Shotgun News was the spot to order. I still have ammo that I ordered out of shotgun news.
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I carried a Mini 14 that I got when I traded a 870 Wingmaster for the Mini 14. Mini 14's were around $400-$450 in the early 80's and even a Colt SP1 was $800-$1000. I bought my first Colt H-Bar in 1996 IIRC. I can remember when the bombing campaign started in the Gulf War I. I put my Mini 14 in my Police car and a couple of battle packs of S African PMP 55 grain FMJ in the trunk. I figured I'd get sent to guard some nuclear power plant but fortunately things state side stayed relatively calm.
PMC 223/5.56 55 grain FMJ was very popular among my Friends but I generally shot mostly 55 grain FMJ or SP reloads. I could buy M-193 55 grain FMJ cheaper than 62 grain M-855 so I mostly shot 55 grain ammo. I had enough M-855 for a couple magazines full but that was all I ever stocked. Today I still only have about 100 M-855 but thousands of 55 grain FMJ and SP's. I can remember when Sierra released the 69 grain SMK but prior to that my Friends and I shot Sierra 52-55 JHP ammo for accuracy. Many of the Officers I worked with that had 223/5.56 rifles (Mini 14's or Colt AR-15's) carried 55 grain Soft Points or 55 grain FMJ. I can remember when the most common AR-15 besides Colt was the Bushmaster and Olympic Arms (1988-1989). |
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I carried a Mini 14 that I got when I traded a 870 Wingmaster for the Mini 14. Mini 14's were around $400-$450 in the early 80's and even a Colt SP1 was $800-$1000. I bought my first Colt H-Bar in 1996 IIRC. I can remember when the bombing campaign started in the Gulf War I. I put my Mini 14 in my Police car and a couple of battle packs of S African PMP 55 grain FMJ in the trunk. I figured I'd get sent to guard some nuclear power plant but fortunately things state side stayed relatively calm. PMC 223/5.56 55 grain FMJ was very popular among my Friends but I generally shot mostly 55 grain FMJ or SP reloads. I could buy M-193 55 grain FMJ cheaper than 62 grain M-855 so I mostly shot 55 grain ammo. I had enough M-855 for a couple magazines full but that was all I ever stocked. Today I still only have about 100 M-855 but thousands of 55 grain FMJ and SP's. I can remember when Sierra released the 69 grain SMK but prior to that my Friends and I shot Sierra 52-55 JHP ammo for accuracy. Many of the Officers I worked with that had 223/5.56 rifles (Mini 14's or Colt AR-15's) carried 55 grain Soft Points or 55 grain FMJ. I can remember when the most common AR-15 besides Colt was the Bushmaster and Olympic Arms (1988-1989). View Quote |
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Around Desert Storm of course. Anyone old enough and into ARs or other guns and such to remember how much variety there was in .223 / 5.56 back then? Could you even get 5.56 surplus back then? Was it mostly 55 and 62 grain fmj and 55 grains soft points? I really don't remember. The shooting I did mostly then was .30-06 or .30-30 soft points. I don't even recall seeing .223 on shelves. But I wasn't really looking. I'm pretty sure there was a 62 grain match hollow point loading at that time. Because I remember reading about the AMU team starting to shoot A1's at Perry at some point before the A2 came out. And I believe they used that Hornady 62 grain BTHP bullet. I'm guessing there were a lot of varmint loadings at that time. 50, 52, 55 grain ballistic tips, etc. View Quote I think back then it was whatever was loaded for varmings, FMJ, and the PSP and 64gr and the like. I do know in the mid/early 80's my Dad passed on a rip-off priced M16 Colt for $800 because that was a rip, and the paperwork would have sucked... |
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During that time frame Shotgun News was the spot to order. I still have ammo that I ordered out of shotgun news. View Quote |
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I have 1k Hornady 62gr BTHP but was under the impression its a new offering.
I was born in 90 though so what do I know |
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You remember around when the 69's were introduced? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I carried a Mini 14 that I got when I traded a 870 Wingmaster for the Mini 14. Mini 14's were around $400-$450 in the early 80's and even a Colt SP1 was $800-$1000. I bought my first Colt H-Bar in 1996 IIRC. I can remember when the bombing campaign started in the Gulf War I. I put my Mini 14 in my Police car and a couple of battle packs of S African PMP 55 grain FMJ in the trunk. I figured I'd get sent to guard some nuclear power plant but fortunately things state side stayed relatively calm. PMC 223/5.56 55 grain FMJ was very popular among my Friends but I generally shot mostly 55 grain FMJ or SP reloads. I could buy M-193 55 grain FMJ cheaper than 62 grain M-855 so I mostly shot 55 grain ammo. I had enough M-855 for a couple magazines full but that was all I ever stocked. Today I still only have about 100 M-855 but thousands of 55 grain FMJ and SP's. I can remember when Sierra released the 69 grain SMK but prior to that my Friends and I shot Sierra 52-55 JHP ammo for accuracy. Many of the Officers I worked with that had 223/5.56 rifles (Mini 14's or Colt AR-15's) carried 55 grain Soft Points or 55 grain FMJ. I can remember when the most common AR-15 besides Colt was the Bushmaster and Olympic Arms (1988-1989). |
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Around $100 per thousand. Mostly 55 grain.
South African 308 battle packs too! |
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I use to buy several cases at a time (1993) of Winchester white box 55 gr ammo to shoot in my Stoner 63a. The cost was around $109/case back then delivered. A few years later you could buy the Malaysian surplus cheaper than that but I did not run it in my Stoner. The South African surplus came in but it was not around as long as the other stuff so I never bought any.
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My recollection is 55 grain - seemingly forever. 62 and higher, available on the open market (people were loading those on their own) was non-existent.
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I built about a dozen ARs back in the early 90's right before the Clinton AWB, which dried up all available parts instantly. There were only a couple of companies selling parts kits (A1 or A2 - that's it), and they mostly used Shotgun News as their sole advertising. A typical mil-spec AR15 could be had for ~$750-800. I could get a complete upgraded A2 parts kit with assembled upper for $335, and was paying $85 for PWA lowers at the time, so you could build a rifle for about half of what it cost to buy one. Typical blasting ammo like Winchester Q3131 (which is simply awful) or Federal AE - all 55gr and FMJ - I seem to remember it running about $4/box, or ~20cpr, but others remember half that, so now I don't know. I do remember a case of 7.62x39 AND an SKS to shoot it was available for $189, or ~6-7cpr + $90 for the rifle. I'm sure the whole gamut of 69gr and 77gr were available in 223 for the varmint bolt-gun guys and the CMP shooters, but I never bought any of that personally.
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I remember the 400 round Portuguese M193 battle packs from the 1980s. Low flash and full power.
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You remember around when the 69's were introduced? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I carried a Mini 14 that I got when I traded a 870 Wingmaster for the Mini 14. Mini 14's were around $400-$450 in the early 80's and even a Colt SP1 was $800-$1000. I bought my first Colt H-Bar in 1996 IIRC. I can remember when the bombing campaign started in the Gulf War I. I put my Mini 14 in my Police car and a couple of battle packs of S African PMP 55 grain FMJ in the trunk. I figured I'd get sent to guard some nuclear power plant but fortunately things state side stayed relatively calm. PMC 223/5.56 55 grain FMJ was very popular among my Friends but I generally shot mostly 55 grain FMJ or SP reloads. I could buy M-193 55 grain FMJ cheaper than 62 grain M-855 so I mostly shot 55 grain ammo. I had enough M-855 for a couple magazines full but that was all I ever stocked. Today I still only have about 100 M-855 but thousands of 55 grain FMJ and SP's. I can remember when Sierra released the 69 grain SMK but prior to that my Friends and I shot Sierra 52-55 JHP ammo for accuracy. Many of the Officers I worked with that had 223/5.56 rifles (Mini 14's or Colt AR-15's) carried 55 grain Soft Points or 55 grain FMJ. I can remember when the most common AR-15 besides Colt was the Bushmaster and Olympic Arms (1988-1989). I have a Speer reloading manual from 1981 and the test rifle was a Mini 14 with 1:10 twist barrel. The heaviest bullet was a 70 grain semi point soft point. My 1982 Hornady manual has no bullets heavier than 64-65 grain soft points. The Hornady rifle used for ballistic testing was a Remington 700 223 with 1:12 twist. Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic rifles of the late 80's to early 90's usually came with 1:9 twist barrels, 1:12 twist was probably still more common than 1:7. The Match Target H-Bar I bought in 1996 came with a 1:9 twist barrel. If I remember correctly Colt was selling more 1:9 twist than 1:7 twist barrels in the early to mid 90's. |
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I had a .223 bolt gun back then and it had a 1/9 barrel. Uncommon for the day. I had to look around for the 'heavy' 52 grain hollow points I liked for coyotes.
I didn't know what thise weird guys with them scary black guns were doing back then. |
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This is an interesting thread. But why does it matter when the ammo came out? View Quote On a deeper level as to "why" I'm even asking, it's just the same cloner type perspective as to what were people really shooting back in a certain time. I was not shooting AR's much back then and don't know. I got my first AR when I was like.... 29 or so (1999). My Dad gave it to me. I'm not even really sure why. He decided it was time to give me a bunch of guns he thought were heirloom type stuff and then we started shooting a lot. I grew up hunting deer and putting the piddly amount of rounds per year to maybe test zero. Which didn't even happen every year. Part of me wonders if lots of M193 was used in the A2's when they first came out. Since there was probably more of that on hand then M855. So I guess someone could comment on that if they were in the Military and remembers. I thought I remember someone saying scores improved when they went from M193 to M855. @03RN |
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My recollection is 55 grain - seemingly forever. 62 and higher, available on the open market (people were loading those on their own) was non-existent. View Quote |
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I had a .223 bolt gun back then and it had a 1/9 barrel. Uncommon for the day. I had to look around for the 'heavy' 52 grain hollow points I liked for coyotes. I didn't know what thise weird guys with them scary black guns were doing back then. View Quote Oh wait, looks like it might've been a typo. I'm on Weatherby's website and they're showing 1/9 for .223 and 1/14 for .22/250. I bet I either looked at it wrong or it was a typo. |
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It doesn't matter. Hence the "For the sake of Nostalgia" in my thread name. On a deeper level as to "why" I'm even asking, it's just the same cloner type perspective as to what were people really shooting back in a certain time. I was not shooting AR's much back then and don't know. I got my first AR when I was like.... 29 or so (1999). My Dad gave it to me. I'm not even really sure why. He decided it was time to give me a bunch of guns he thought were heirloom type stuff and then we started shooting a lot. I grew up hunting deer and putting the piddly amount of rounds per year to maybe test zero. Which didn't even happen every year. Part of me wonders if lots of M193 was used in the A2's when they first came out. Since there was probably more of that on hand then M855. So I guess someone could comment on that if they were in the Military and remembers. I thought I remember someone saying scores improved when they went from M193 to M855. @03RN View Quote |
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LOL. Maybe it was @harv24 that was in the military back then. Or @madcap72. I know @CombatDiver was. I might have already asked him. He might be getting tired of saying.
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Around Desert Storm of course. Anyone old enough and into ARs or other guns and such to remember how much variety there was in .223 / 5.56 back then? Could you even get 5.56 surplus back then? Was it mostly 55 and 62 grain fmj and 55 grains soft points? I really don't remember. The shooting I did mostly then was .30-06 or .30-30 soft points. I don't even recall seeing .223 on shelves. But I wasn't really looking. I'm pretty sure there was a 62 grain match hollow point loading at that time. Because I remember reading about the AMU team starting to shoot A1's at Perry at some point before the A2 came out. And I believe they used that Hornady 62 grain BTHP bullet. I'm guessing there were a lot of varmint loadings at that time. 50, 52, 55 grain ballistic tips, etc. View Quote "IF" memory serves me right.... there was huge variety of surplus 55gr FMJ and some 62gr ( M855 ) around, South African, Malaysian, Port., Guat.,... prices were quite low. You would buy by the case, the price was so low. I don't remember any 62gr BTHP match being made by US manufacturers.... I do remember some surplus was "labeled" as "Match" ammo to circumnavigate other countries laws concerning importation of Mil-Spec surplus ammo. Most .223 "Varmint ammo" used thin skinned / jacketed bullets designed for 1n12 or 1n14 twist rate barreled bolt actions... when the same ammo was fired in 1n7 twists, the jackets / bullets would literally spin apart shortly after leaving the barrel. ( Modern varmint bullets are designed for the faster common twists ) This archived thread might help... https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1706529_From_The_Golden_Age_Of_Surplus_Ammo_.html |
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My units shot a lot of M193 as a lot of Full size rifles were just converted from A1's to A2's by changing the hand guards. It was easy enough to do as all ammo has a DODIC code that units had to use to order ammo for range qual and training.
The older A1's could not stabilize the heaver SS109 bullet that was on the M855 ammo. Lot s of Guard and reserve units used up the M193 ammo during that period due to them having more A1's then A2's. M855 was not as available in the civilian market (Think of how rare M855A1 is now) but back then there was a ton of surplus 5.56 on the market and I was shooting all of it.. Malaysian... South African, Brit Radway Green.. Singapore... .. And as one poster pointed out... Shotgun news was the source.. many a wooden crate was heaved and left on my door by the UPS man... My first AR was bought in 86 . It was a Colt HBAR AR15A2... big heavy beast.... I kept it for a few years and then picked up the first of what would be several M4 type AR's. I never saw the love of the AR musket .. I carried one many times and was glad to be rid of it... it did nothing my 16" AR carbine could not do. |
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An FFL in town bought several M16s (Colt) from LE trade-ins. He paid 125$ each and sold them for a "good" profit. 1980s. Nobody wanted those nasty Colts
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I have 1k Hornady 62gr BTHP but was under the impression its a new offering. I was born in 90 though so what do I know View Quote https://www.midwayusa.com/product/132801/remington-premier-match-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20 |
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There was a resturaunt. Big Pines Lodge in NE Texas... View Quote Attached File As for myself, I mainly used Winchester white box and Portuguese surplus m193, the latter mailordered for something like $65 per 400 rd battlepack. |
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See that box? That's the old style box. See how it's discontinued? They USED to make it. I don't think they do any longer. I always wanted to try some, but never did. Looks like it might be too late. Are you saying you just bought bullets or loaded rounds with the Hornady 62 grain BTHP? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/132801/remington-premier-match-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20 View Quote https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/001532276c1500/22-caliber-point224-diameter-62-grain-bthp-with-cannelure-1500-count This is what I bought. Loaded them to about 2825 in a 16" which is close to m855 so stopped there. They bust milk jugs pretty well |
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Actual bullets not loaded. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/001532276c1500/22-caliber-point224-diameter-62-grain-bthp-with-cannelure-1500-count This is what I bought. Loaded them to about 2825 in a 16" which is close to m855 so stopped there. They bust milk jugs pretty well View Quote |
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It used to be mainly 55 grain and a lot of FMJ and surplus. M855 was not as common as it became later. I had a mini-14 back then and sold it to fund my first AR. I shortly afterwards found this place.
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1982 - 1984 there was IMI Samson 55grn FMJ. Blue and white box of 20 rnds. I think it was labeled .223 Rem.
About 1990, Speer made 62grn FMJ lead core only bullets for reloading. Box of projectiles was about $8.00 per 100 at LGS in California. Lots of Remington nickle plated brass in .223 Rem was available from Midway. |
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Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. You ever test it for accuracy. Searching around the site it shows those 62 BTHP's only slightly more expensive (we're talking a penny or 2) than 55 and 62 grain FMJ and a heck of a lot cheaper than 75 grain. Seems like a really good choice to me...... At least for not overly long shooting, I wonder how they would handle long distance.... And gel testing..... View Quote I think its a good little bullet, should do well in gel I would think. Maybe I'll send 25 to @bluefalcon. Its not a bullet you often see so I was glad to grab some. Im using 25.5gr TAC if anyone is interested. |
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I have at 25y but not 100 yet. Should be around 2moa would be my guess. Just using a 16" CL PSA, Vortex 7x and my magazine as a monopod. Does have a Geissele trigger too. I think its a good little bullet, should do well in gel I would think. Maybe I'll send 25 to @bluefalcon. Its not a bullet you often see so I was glad to grab some. Im using 25.5gr TAC if anyone is interested. View Quote |
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Sure there was crates of it for small money.
Chinese Norinco, for one. It was in (IIRC) yellow boxes and it smelled like cat piss (ammonia?) when you shot a lot of it....and we did. I built my first AR back in ?86?87? out of parts I got from Shotgun News advertisers. I used to wear the newsprint from the Shotgun News like warpaint. The rage back then was Hbars. I sold it and several others during the ban because...profit. I had a Bushmaster for a while- it was Barney Purple (someone screwed up the anodizing recipe I guess). It grew on me! Back then AKs were disposable. We shot a Norinco folder so much it lit the foreend on fire. The thing was smoldering away and we debated pissing on it to put the fire out. It eventually went out on its own and was only a bit charred. Friend of mine had a Mini 14 and we were mighty impressed with the spectacular lack of accuracy. It was horrendous, but the Norinco ammo didn't help. Most of the older range guys had M14s. They called my AR a "poodle shooter" My poodle shooter would do well if you fed it decent ammo, but mostly I was too cheap/poor to do that. The M14 guys were a cult and I suspected they wore dark robes and chanted every time they had to "glass in" their stocks. They knew way too much about Accraglas, that much I know. It is the .surp 7.62x51mm that I missed the boat on. I wish, I wish... |
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LOL. Isn't it crazy how much an AK goes for now? Well, as long as it's not from Atlantic Firearms....... Or are those expensive now too. I forget. I should've bought one back then. Or even just a SKS for that matter. LIL did I know my son would actually be into chicom stuff. But he's never shot one because I don't have one......
And then the ammo.......... As far as the M1A guys go.... so they sniffed too much fiberglass.... That's just what you did. Or so I understand. Who are we to have a problem with it. Every time I shoot my .30 cal guns I am reminded how much easier it is to be accurate with them. At the sacrifice of weight, felt recoil, and ammo prices. But they just feel so right to me. I still think the right answer is an intermediate round. Like the 6.8. My guess is it's less finnicky cuz it's not zipping as fast as 5.56 and you get better performance. Garand had it right with the .276. But whatever. It's all a pipe dream. How did you get me going on that? |
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LOL. Isn't it crazy how much an AK goes for now? Well, as long as it's not from Atlantic Firearms....... Or are those expensive now too. I forget. I should've bought one back then. Or even just a SKS for that matter. LIL did I know my son would actually be into chicom stuff. But he's never shot one because I don't have one...... And then the ammo.......... As far as the M1A guys go.... so they sniffed too much fiberglass.... That's just what you did. Or so I understand. Who are we to have a problem with it. Every time I shoot my .30 cal guns I am reminded how much easier it is to be accurate with them. At the sacrifice of weight, felt recoil, and ammo prices. But they just feel so right to me. I still think the right answer is an intermediate round. Like the 6.8. My guess is it's less finnicky cuz it's not zipping as fast as 5.56 and you get better performance. Garand had it right with the .276. But whatever. It's all a pipe dream. How did you get me going on that? View Quote At least we got our time in the sun- I feel the same jealousy for the guys back in the great days of the DCM when you could buy 1911s, Garands, etc. for next to nothing. Not to mention the NFA stuff. I like to say that I pray for World Peace. It isn't that I am a peacenik per se, but I see peace as the only way we can get some decently priced .surp ammo!!! |
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I bought my first AR in 1990. It was a 16" bushmaster with a telescoping stock. At the time, Bushmaster only made the 16" carbine, 20" and a thing called the disapatter that was 16" barreled but with 20" type handguards.
I remember buying chinese Norinco in the Yellow and Green boxes by the crate for cheap. Vaguely remember Malaysian, Guatemalan and IMI ammo too. It was all 55gr FMJ. |
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Around 1998 I used to buy Canadian surplus 556 and 303 for 10cent. I used to shoot it into the lake to watch it splash. . Aks were 200-250$ and local gun shows had 3 brands of ARs Colt, dmps, bushmaster. Colts were 8-900$, dmps were 7-800$ and bushmasters were 6-700$. I bought the mid grade dmps. View Quote |
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The AK prices are full on insane, and it is not just because we have become "I remember when a bar of chocolate cost 5 cents" dinosaurs. At least we got our time in the sun- I feel the same jealousy for the guys back in the great days of the DCM when you could buy 1911s, Garands, etc. for next to nothing. Not to mention the NFA stuff. I like to say that I pray for World Peace. It isn't that I am a peacenik per se, but I see peace as the only way we can get some decently priced .surp ammo!!! View Quote A guy that owns a store around here, well used to own a store said back in the day they had more M2 ball then they knew what to do with. They'd be plinking Garands like .22's...... According to him. Yowzah. But you're right, the AK prices are more than just inflation. Because AR's have gone backwards....... |
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