User Panel
[Last Edit: swampvol]
[#1]
Originally Posted By 0uTkAsT:
Great thread! I was about to pull the trigger on an 11.5, but now you've got me torn between doing a 12.5 instead View Quote It seems to really start out pacing the 10.5" with the higher velocity 5.56 ball ammo though. |
|
Doesn't mean that much to me, to mean that much to you.
|
[Last Edit: CountryGuy]
[#2]
The following is a link from AR15.com in the ammo section from the excellent, extremely informative larger article of "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo"- using velocity data and gelatin performance. I am only going to reference the first test which is an excellent reference of bullet performance for 8", 14.5" and 20" barreled 223 caliber bullets using the 556 Black Hills 50 grain TSX cartridge. The results can't be used to extrapolate to other cartridges and I have no intention of using a lightweight bullet for my purposes. The reference simply shows the terminal performance of this one cartridge. However, it is interesting to look at the various bullet types, weights and velocities compared to their gelatin performance in the rest of this link. And other extremely informative data from the larger article one can compare between handguns and long guns and various calibers in gelatin.
Gelatin tests Note the velocity of the 8" barrel is 2634 FPS and the 20" barrel is 3205 FPS- a large difference. Also note the bullet gelatin performance of the two cartridges are very similar with the 20" barreled bullet only penetrating ~ 0.5" deeper (both well into the sweet spot of penetration) and having a larger stretch cavity with both bullets retaining most of their initial weight. It is also interesting to me to compare handguns vs. long guns in the scope of self defense at CQB ranges. Following is a link from the same larger article noted above. Terminal Ballistics |
|
|
[#3]
From what I can tell, the main thing with longer barrels is you get to maintain that critical expansion or fragmentation threshold over a longer distance.
You don't really see much difference as long as you are above the critical threshold. I'm no expert on the matter, just analyzing lots of data. PS: Major thanks to the OP for doing this test. |
|
|
[#4]
This is AMAZING DATA!!!! Thank you for putting this together!!!
|
|
|
[#5]
Originally Posted By CountryGuy:
There is the light and fast bullet crowd and the slow and heavy bullet crowd, with others in between. Velocity is not the only important item to consider in bullet performance. I go from one side to the other depending upon circumstances- typically driven by research of suspected/proven bullet terminal performance and accuracy for the task I have tailored each particular weapon to. Velocity at a particular distance is just one component of the equation. My first AR purchase was a Bushmaster 16" pencil barrel back in 2003. My 10.5" is a recent build and has quickly become my favorite for MY uses, as a quick access, quick pointing all around defensive gun and my primary go to long gun; it is my truck gun (after the revolver.) It has a Meprolight RDS that is always ready to go, so the usage and parts match the purpose. It is a short range piece- out to 110 yards. And of course the shorter barrel has less velocity and less bullet terminal performance at distance, which is why I limit it to 110 yards for my purposes. Since I built and tested the pistol with tested accuracy as good as my BCM CHF 16" at my distances, I have gotten to the point I see little purpose for my 16" barrels with their reduced velocity. With experience, if I had things to do over, I would have a 18" or 20" barrel for longer distances from a static position- which is not a priority of mine, and my 10.5" barrel as the primary, short range piece it has become. I am using GD 55s for my 10.5" for bonded core performance with IMI OTM 77 as secondary. I have chronoed each, among others and fired for accuracy. Speer's statement on their LE web site concerning their 223 Gold Dots: "...Gold Dot rifle bullets are optimized to ensure expansion out of barrels down to 10" at a wide variety of velocities out to 200 yards..." But they do not state what the velocities are. I am more conservative on the velocity vs. terminal performance and consider my 10.5" as a 110 yard gun, which is where the velocity drops to 2200 FPS- my minimum standard for GDs and 77 grain Sierra OTM types. With a 50 yard zero and GD 55s or IMI OTM 77s, point-blank-range (P-B-R) is -2" at 10 yards to +1.25" at 110 yards from the point of aim. With -+2" at 210 yards. -+2" is exactly what I require as a maximum variation. I am using GD 75s for my 16" as a 150 yard gun for the bullet weight and bonded core performance- again as the bullet velocity drops to 2200 FPS. And GD 55s and IMI OTM 77s out to 200 yards. P-B-R with GD 55 and IMI OTM 77 is -2" at 10 yards to +1.8" at 135 yards to -1.6" at 200 yards. For the GD 75 it is -2" at 10 yards to +1.2" at 110 yards to -1.6" at 200 yards. However, its velocity drops to 2200 FPS at 150 yards. I do wish Speer would increase the 223 GD velocities. But there is a potential down side to velocity increases. In a bonded bullet, increased velocity most likely will cause increased expansion in tissue earlier and cause decreased penetration at shorter distances. While increasing velocity on an OTM bullet type can cause increased fragmentation earlier and decreased penetration in flesh at shorter distances. To me it is all a balance of terminal distance and material vs. terminal velocity, bullet construction and impact point, along with momentum for penetration depth. Velocity is not the do all, end all. I do hand load hand gun ammunition but quit hand loading defensive bullets since I can't get my hands on flash suppressed powder. I will start loading 556 this winter when I have time and do have all of the components and equipment to do so, but probably not for defensive purposes. View Quote My plan is to make 80% of my reloads cheaper plinking and 20% high end loads. But I'll start another thread. Don't want to derail this one. |
|
|
[#6]
Very diligent work. Thanks for sharing.
Two comments. The 62 grain Barnes TSK shows great velocity and more than 55 graiin. Was 55 grain ammo 223 or 556 pressure? I cant tell from photo of boxes you tested. (Impressive). On trajectory, the 62 grain Fusion G1 BC is probably un-realsticaly high compared to other 62 grain bullets. It was higher than pointed M855. TSX BC probably alot more in line with small, flat meplat, Great work none the less!! |
|
|
[#7]
Originally Posted By QCB:
Very diligent work. Thanks for sharing. Two comments. The 62 grain Barnes TSK shows great velocity and more than 55 graiin. Was 55 grain ammo 223 or 556 pressure? I cant tell from photo of boxes you tested. (Impressive). On trajectory, the 62 grain Fusion G1 BC is probably un-realsticaly high compared to other 62 grain bullets. It was higher than pointed M855. TSX BC probably alot more in line with small, flat meplat, Great work none the less!! View Quote The Fusion MSR BC is Federal's number from their website. We all know that a manufacturer would NEVER embellish a number like this to show better performance, right? I'm not saying they did or didn't, but it is a possibility. |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[Last Edit: sao]
[#8]
First, thank you for the testing! Always wondered FPS w/ can for 10.5 and 11.5 AR would be.
Anyone have any ballistic data on the Fusion MSR 62? I know we assume it's a clone of the Speer Golddot 64. But do we have any testing? How does it do in auto glass, etc...? |
|
|
[#9]
@ Eagle_19er
What change if any does the suppressor on the 10.5" bbl velocity data have vs. an unsurpressed 10.5" bbl? Thank you |
|
|
[#10]
Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:
@ Eagle_19er What change if any does the suppressor on the 10.5" bbl velocity data have vs. an unsurpressed 10.5" bbl? Thank you View Quote |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#11]
Originally Posted By Eagle_19er:
You gain 1-2% velocity with a suppressor, but usually closer to 1%. I haven't done any formal testing of it but it's held true through the few loads I've tried both ways on the same day. View Quote And thank you again for your hard work and answering our questions. |
|
|
[#12]
Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:
So with a theoretical 2,500 fps I would expect about 25 to 50 fps slower without suppresor. Am i understanding you correctly? And thank you again for your hard work and answering our questions. View Quote |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#13]
Damn fine work here OP!
Definitely got this puppy sub'd for future reference. |
|
|
[#14]
There's a newish post on TOS where the 5.56mm 62gr TSX were tested with both the Barnes Vor-TX and Black Hills loadings. The numbers were extremely close to what you posted in the OP, which offers some confirmation as well.
|
|
|
[#15]
|
|
I'm not that bright but I live in a world of idiots.
I have given up on the serenity prayer. Now I pray for strength to kill enough of these people that they'll leave our children alone. |
[#16]
I thought it was considered bad form and frowned upon to provide links to TOS?
|
|
|
[#17]
|
|
I'm not that bright but I live in a world of idiots.
I have given up on the serenity prayer. Now I pray for strength to kill enough of these people that they'll leave our children alone. |
[#18]
And there you have it folks 12.5 is better than 11.5 . All you 11.5 goobers best go ditch your backwater barrels and get with the real master length SBR.
|
|
|
[Last Edit: inkaybee]
[#19]
Great work op. Thanks!
Now having said that, I think people should avoid nit picking this data. Using an oehler 3 screen chronograph I clocked 64 grain gold dot at 2400 fsp out of my 9 inch sig. While fusion MSR 62 gr was going 2250. My point is there are probably lot to lot variations that make finding the perfect round impossible. Get any of the proven performers and go for it and don't worry too much. |
|
|
[#20]
I did a quick look thru the posts and didn't see this mentioned. In the tests the 12.5 always had higher velocity, except for the PPU 55 gr. It shows 2776 in the 12.5 and 2821 in the 11.5. Is this correct?
|
|
|
[#21]
Originally Posted By KnifeCollector:
I did a quick look thru the posts and didn't see this mentioned. In the tests the 12.5 always had higher velocity, except for the PPU 55 gr. It shows 2776 in the 12.5 and 2821 in the 11.5. Is this correct? View Quote |
|
|
[#22]
View Quote I'm not a ballistics expert so I can't reasonably account for the anomalous drop in the PPU load between those barrel lengths. It very well could be a combination of factors but I can confirm that I tried to get the variables as close to the same as possible for all the testing. Anything else would have been a massive wasted effort. For whatever reason the PPU did actually drop in my barrel for that test. (The data was/is correct). |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#23]
View Quote Think about the various powders.. and how many are not optimal for .223 /5.56... because of the slight difference in burn rates. That alone, shows how "fussy" powders can behave. A great example is pouring powder on the ground and igniting it... it is very uneventful... put the same powder in a pressure vessel ( a .22 barrel ) and it behaves VERY differently change the chamber dimensions and the powder is not the best choice anymore.... some powders are great for small cartridges like the .223 / 5.56 ... a lot of them are worthless to us for .223 / 5.56 While all data collected is done in as efficient ways as possible ... there are numerous variables we ( laymen ) can not control... so try to not stress over oddball figures to much, Lol Those few FPS mean nothing in the big scope of things. Can I explain why the gain ? Nope. Even this test shows a far from linear velocity change... AS WELL as an increase in velocity at a very unexpected point. https://rifleshooter.com/2014/04/223-remington5-56-nato-velocity-versus-barrel-length-a-man-his-chop-box-and-his-friends-rifle/ And this one... https://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308-winchester-7-62x51mm-nato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/ |
|
*Hold on to your AR-15s. Their magic must be very powerful, or they wouldn’t want them.*
JAFOM.... Just another fat old man. |
[#24]
Also, remember testing with a suppressor will be a little different too. And that different suppressors will have different results.
One other thing that nobody talks about, gas port size and location as well as the quality of the gas seal in the barrel all will impact velocity. Want proof? Check out the Superlative Arms gas block chrono test on YouTube. Changing the gas block from restrict mode to vent mode made a noticeable impact on velocity. My gut tells me that rifling twist rate may have a very slight impact too. Just because a faster twist will have more friction in the barrel than a slow twist. But I have no proof of that. |
|
|
[#25]
I believe Molon tested this... and showed a negligible difference.... just an FYI.
"My gut tells me that rifling twist rate may have a very slight impact too. Just because a faster twist will have more friction in the barrel than a slow twist. But I have no proof of that." |
|
*Hold on to your AR-15s. Their magic must be very powerful, or they wouldn’t want them.*
JAFOM.... Just another fat old man. |
[#26]
how did i miss this? wow, great stuff eagle.
|
|
|
[#27]
|
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#28]
Wow, what a test. My extremely over-analytical mind loves stuff like this, gonna keep me busy for hours
A big thank you to the OP. |
|
When it absolutely, positively must be impregnated or destroyed before dawn - Call a Marine!
|
[#29]
Would you be willing to add this to your chart?
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/products/556-62gr-federal-tactical-bonded-100rds-xm556sbct3 |
|
|
[#30]
Speer used to load the Gold Dots to 5.56 velocity for those who may not be aware.
I still have box of the 55gr 5.56 actually. I dont think we ever got a 100% answer, but I believe they went to .223 for better accuracy, and they already have the low expansion threshold. Another theory is that it was a liability concern. Not wanting issues with 5.56 in .223 guns. |
|
|
[Last Edit: swampvol]
[#31]
|
|
Doesn't mean that much to me, to mean that much to you.
|
[#32]
Originally Posted By swampvol:
If this was the case, I sure wish they'd just stamped the box in big black letters: 'NOT FOR USE IN .223 CHAMBERED RIFLES.' View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By swampvol:
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Another theory is that it was a liability concern. Not wanting issues with 5.56 in .223 guns. I may or may not have pulled the projectiles on a couple boxes of the .233 version and given them a little "bump" in velocity*....for science. *I do not recommend anyone do this. As with reloading any other projectile/powder/primer combo, Iwas carefully watching for pressure signs. Don't blow your face off. |
|
|
[#33]
Originally Posted By mitsuman47:
Unfortunately, this is exactly the reason I've heard they discontinued the 5.56. I may or may not have pulled the projectiles on a couple boxes of the .233 version and given them a little "bump" in velocity*....for science. *I do not recommend anyone do this. As with reloading any other projectile/powder/primer combo, Iwas carefully watching for pressure signs. Don't blow your face off. View Quote |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#34]
Originally Posted By Eagle_19er:
Yes, please don't do this unless you KNOW what you're doing, and even then be extremely careful. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Eagle_19er:
Originally Posted By mitsuman47:
Unfortunately, this is exactly the reason I've heard they discontinued the 5.56. I may or may not have pulled the projectiles on a couple boxes of the .233 version and given them a little "bump" in velocity*....for science. *I do not recommend anyone do this. As with reloading any other projectile/powder/primer combo, Iwas carefully watching for pressure signs. Don't blow your face off. |
|
|
[#35]
OP can you enlighten me on how you are adjusting the gas block on the 11.5?
|
|
"The topic leaves a bad taste in some members' mouths, they're bitter and salty regarding their own outcome in life." - DangerJ
"Shooting unsuppressed is just uncivilized." - 1UP5DN |
[Last Edit: Eagle_19er]
[#36]
Originally Posted By BigMan74:
OP can you enlighten me on how you are adjusting the gas block on the 11.5? View Quote |
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#37]
|
|
"The topic leaves a bad taste in some members' mouths, they're bitter and salty regarding their own outcome in life." - DangerJ
"Shooting unsuppressed is just uncivilized." - 1UP5DN |
[#38]
Great thread.
As someone with a KAC SR-15 CQB (which has an 11.5" barrel) in NFA jail right now it is relevant to my interests. This is good data for anyone debating the 10.5/11.5 + full can vs 14.5 + mini can options. |
|
Go to your safe place.
|
[#39]
Originally Posted By CountryGuy:
OP: Yours and my chrono results out of 10.5" barrels have really made me take a hard look at my initial primary and secondary ammunition stock for the short barrel 556. Your Federal Fusion MSR 62 grain results provide 881 ft. pounds of energy and my Speer GD 55 grain results provide 833 ft. pounds of energy. Not a lot of difference but in the case of short barrels and some distance- maybe enough, depending. Online pricing for the Fusion MSR is ~ $1/round plus shipping and I typically purchase no less than 400 rounds of any 223 defensive type ammunition at a time and usually more if I need to test something new- like the Fusion MSR 62 grain, in this case. I feel comfortable Fusion MSR will chronograph similarly in my 10.5" barrel as in yours with the results we both have. My 556 stamped barrels that have been measured and reamed as required to 556 specs, like any quality ammunition I have fed them and shoot reasonably small groups of everything- meaning they are more accurate than I. Have you compared how the Fusion MSR group on paper vs. 55 grain Gold Dots or anything else? Since a short barrel firearm is typically for shorter ranges, and in my case 50 yards - 75 yards, I am rearranging my short barrel ammunition stock from 75/77 grains as primary to the GD 55 grain as primary until I can find a good sale on Fusion MSR and test. Alternatively, I will be comfy with my GD 55s in this case. For the 16" carbine, my testing confirmed 75 grain GDs and 77 gr. IMI OTM as my primary choices. Again, great job. Your data have confirmed my suspicions about a lot of the ammunition I have not purchased/tested and your data will be in my library :-) View Quote |
|
|
[#40]
Anyone running a lot of the Barnes 70gr TSX or any other TSX loads?
Is the copper fouling as bad as some people claim? |
|
Go to your safe place.
|
[#41]
|
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#42]
Great thread!
1. Bump so this stays on the first page as the information available should be read by all visiting this subforum. 2. The data makes me feel good about going with a 12.75" barrel and pairing it with 55 gr Gold Dots. |
|
|
[#43]
Originally Posted By Joker1713:
Great thread! 1. Bump so this stays on the first page as the information available should be read by all visiting this subforum. 2. The data makes me feel good about going with a 12.75" barrel and pairing it with 55 gr Gold Dots. View Quote Second, where did you get a 12.75"? I want to hear more. |
|
|
[Last Edit: Joker1713]
[#44]
|
|
|
[#45]
Thank you for all the work and effort you put into getting this data!
|
|
Member of Team Ranstad
|
[#46]
|
|
Member of Team Ranstad
|
[#47]
|
|
|
[#48]
Any updates with the newer Speer 62gr Gold Dot? I’m curious to see 10.5” muzzle velocity.
|
|
|
[#49]
|
|
Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP. |
[#50]
Originally Posted By Eagle_19er: I've got a box of 62gr and a spare box of 64gr to put up against each other head to head. Just need to find the time to get out there. View Quote |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.