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Posted: 12/27/2015 10:32:10 PM EDT
[#1]
77gr
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Posted: 12/27/2015 10:57:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
77gr The 77gr are Sierra bullets which are somewhat erratic in terminal performance. I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. |
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Posted: 12/27/2015 11:27:21 PM EDT
[#3]
I like SGammo and I have placed several orders there but I also like my money. Wideners is cheaper on the 77gr IMI.
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Posted: 12/28/2015 12:54:35 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 77gr are Sierra bullets which are somewhat erratic in terminal performance. I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
77gr The 77gr are Sierra bullets which are somewhat erratic in terminal performance. I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Yaw dependent bullet.... the TMK ( or similar ) is not. For the OP... try them both for accuracy, then decide which to stock. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 3:45:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like SGammo and I have placed several orders there but I also like my money. Wideners is cheaper on the 77gr IMI. The shipping from Wideners makes it more than SGammo for me. I've never ordered from Wideners before but have almost exclusively used SGammo. Super fast shipping and have never had any issues. I know there are probably alot of places out there that are great complanies but I'm loyal to SGammo. I think I'm gonna order up 100rnds of each and test them out. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 7:30:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The shipping from Wideners makes it more than SGammo for me. I've never ordered from Wideners before but have almost exclusively used SGammo. Super fast shipping and have never had any issues. I know there are probably alot of places out there that are great complanies but I'm loyal to SGammo. I think I'm gonna order up 100rnds of each and test them out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I like SGammo and I have placed several orders there but I also like my money. Wideners is cheaper on the 77gr IMI. The shipping from Wideners makes it more than SGammo for me. I've never ordered from Wideners before but have almost exclusively used SGammo. Super fast shipping and have never had any issues. I know there are probably alot of places out there that are great complanies but I'm loyal to SGammo. I think I'm gonna order up 100rnds of each and test them out. While neither business has been an issue for me I understand why you have made your choice. The difference in cost between the two for me is Wideners over SG. It happens often with other items and other vendors; when the cost of shipping alone has been a deal breaker. I'll check this forum in future to see if you provide an update on the performance. Good luck and have a Happy New Year |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 11:43:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Wow I thought this thread was about IMI 69 grain vs. 77 grain razorcore, not Wideners vs. SG ammo.
So I guess I can't ask if the IMI 69 grain is a SMK with or without a cannelure. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:42:53 AM EDT
[#8]
^ I have a couple boxes coming to test. I'll post pics when the come (The 69gr)
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:01:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^ I have a couple boxes coming to test. I'll post pics when the come (The 69gr) Thanks. I've shot a bunch of the IMI 77 grain razor core out of my SBRs(10 and 11.5 inch barrels) and get little itty bitty groups(under 5/8 inches at 50 yards with open sights). So I'm very happy with it. Looking forward to 69 grain review. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 12:21:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. I've shot a bunch of the IMI 77 grain razor core out of my SBRs(10 and 11.5 inch barrels) and get little itty bitty groups(under 5/8 inches at 50 yards with open sights). So I'm very happy with it. Looking forward to 69 grain review. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ^ I have a couple boxes coming to test. I'll post pics when the come (The 69gr) Thanks. I've shot a bunch of the IMI 77 grain razor core out of my SBRs(10 and 11.5 inch barrels) and get little itty bitty groups(under 5/8 inches at 50 yards with open sights). So I'm very happy with it. Looking forward to 69 grain review. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 2:26:08 AM EDT
[#11]
What's the difference between the IMI Razor core and BH 5.56 77 gr SMK?
Other than price and availability? |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 3:13:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Razor Core 77 is sealed and crimped and loaded with ball powder. In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. No over pressure signs so far but showing brass on the bolt face and lots of small flakes. I don't know about the BH ammo.
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:46:13 PM EDT
[#13]
If it's windy and you're going to shoot out past 400 yards, 77gr all the way.
If not, the 69 is fine and may be a little more accurate. I've taken the IMI MK262 clone out to about 900 yards and was able to hold a 14" group out there. 10 round group, shot off a bipod with a 10X scope. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:54:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 77gr are Sierra bullets which are somewhat erratic in terminal performance. I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Federal Gold Medal Match: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics .... |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:57:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . 
.... |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:09:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Federal Gold Medal Match: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics .... i think he was talking about the IMI 69gr Razor Core  |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:22:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i think he was talking about the IMI 69gr Razor Core http://1696252748.rsc.cdn77.org/cdn/farfuture/0OqJx46AfA_tmPvfEui-jPBP2FVQf0KaeIcIIcJ85Mw/mtime:1450459840/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/121815%20002.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Federal Gold Medal Match: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics .... i think he was talking about the IMI 69gr Razor Core http://1696252748.rsc.cdn77.org/cdn/farfuture/0OqJx46AfA_tmPvfEui-jPBP2FVQf0KaeIcIIcJ85Mw/mtime:1450459840/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/121815%20002.JPG Which is loaded with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing, so the terminal performance will be similar. ... |
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Posted: 1/15/2016 12:12:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsud13hldj.jpg https://app.box.com/shared/static/e2dpunkchz.jpg .... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsud13hldj.jpg https://app.box.com/shared/static/e2dpunkchz.jpg .... Wow, impressive for sure. |
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Posted: 1/15/2016 12:32:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The 77gr are Sierra bullets which are somewhat erratic in terminal performance. I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Federal Gold Medal Match: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics I saw that thread just a couple days ago, thanks for the report. If that terminal performance is consistent it would seem to be an excellent option for a non-barrier defensive load particularly for 1:9 barrels. |
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Posted: 1/21/2016 11:58:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is loaded with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing, so the terminal performance will be similar. ... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I haven't seen testing on the 69gr for comparison. Federal Gold Medal Match: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics .... i think he was talking about the IMI 69gr Razor Core http://1696252748.rsc.cdn77.org/cdn/farfuture/0OqJx46AfA_tmPvfEui-jPBP2FVQf0KaeIcIIcJ85Mw/mtime:1450459840/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/121815%20002.JPG Which is loaded with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing, so the terminal performance will be similar. ... well looky there. i didnt realize IMI started making a 69gr razor load too. there is a good comparison test, to see which factory is better: federal GM vs IMI 69gr razor. |
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Posted: 1/22/2016 4:01:46 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Razor Core 77 is sealed and crimped and loaded with ball powder. In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. No over pressure signs so far but showing brass on the bolt face and lots of small flakes. I don't know about the BH ammo. |
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Posted: 1/22/2016 10:22:03 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsud13hldj.jpg https://app.box.com/shared/static/e2dpunkchz.jpg .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsud13hldj.jpg https://app.box.com/shared/static/e2dpunkchz.jpg .... Interesting headstamp... Molon, what year that IMI brass is from ? |
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Posted: 1/22/2016 10:37:57 AM EDT
[#23]
make mine 77gr
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Posted: 1/22/2016 12:24:40 PM EDT
[#24]
here is what a mere mortal can do with IMI 77gr razor core....
6 shots, LWRC 18" DMR upper, 2 stage trigger, Mk4 2.5-8x glass, bipod, pistol grip rested at 100yds... 
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Posted: 1/22/2016 8:34:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting headstamp... Molon, what year that IMI brass is from ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In my experience IMI brass is softer than LC. IMI brass that has been loaded and fired 19 times so far . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsud13hldj.jpg https://app.box.com/shared/static/e2dpunkchz.jpg .... Interesting headstamp... Molon, what year that IMI brass is from ? The year of our Lord, 109. 
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Posted: 1/24/2016 5:56:27 PM EDT
[#26]
I had I change to shot 20 rounds of the 77gr IMI Razorcore in my Armalite M15 with a 16" 1/9 barrel. Also shot 10 rounds of 75gr Speer Rem .223 rounds too. I put the target at 30 feet. None of the rounds keyholed but I don't what velocity the rounds hit since the range I go to is indoors so they don't allow chronographs. Or at least I have never seen a chronograph being used ever. Please ignore the missed head shots.
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Posted: 1/24/2016 6:29:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had I change to shot 20 rounds of the 77gr IMI Razorcore in my Armalite M15 with a 16" 1/9 barrel. Also shot 10 rounds of 75gr Speer Rem .223 rounds too. I put the target at 30 feet. None of the rounds keyholed but I don't what velocity the rounds hit since the range I go to is indoors so they don't allow chronographs. Or at least I have never seen a chronograph being used ever. Please ignore the missed head shots.
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p359/Tony6171991/DA229E6E-A9EA-4E50-9335-236639546EE9_zps3kga79zs.jpg You're going to have to put the target out a lot farther than 30 feet if you're trying to determine if the bullets are gyroscopically stable from your barrel. ... |
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Posted: 1/24/2016 9:25:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're going to have to put the target out a lot farther than 30 feet if you're trying to determine if the bullets are gyroscopically stable from your barrel. ... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had I change to shot 20 rounds of the 77gr IMI Razorcore in my Armalite M15 with a 16" 1/9 barrel. Also shot 10 rounds of 75gr Speer Rem .223 rounds too. I put the target at 30 feet. None of the rounds keyholed but I don't what velocity the rounds hit since the range I go to is indoors so they don't allow chronographs. Or at least I have never seen a chronograph being used ever. Please ignore the missed head shots.
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p359/Tony6171991/DA229E6E-A9EA-4E50-9335-236639546EE9_zps3kga79zs.jpg You're going to have to put the target out a lot farther than 30 feet if you're trying to determine if the bullets are gyroscopically stable from your barrel. ... This....no offense to anyone, but.. 100yds should be a minimum. |
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Posted: 1/24/2016 11:43:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Unfortunately the indoor range I go to only has a max distance of 25 yards. I was planning on using these rounds for HD. All I have now is IMI M193 or IMI 62gr green tip rounds. Just buying boxes of 20 rounds and testing them.
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Posted: 1/25/2016 1:01:36 AM EDT
[#30]
Use the M193. I wouldn't waste MK262 on anything under 200 yards. It's just gettin' warmed up at 300M !
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Posted: 1/25/2016 4:36:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfortunately the indoor range I go to only has a max distance of 25 yards. I was planning on using these rounds for HD. All I have now is IMI M193 or IMI 62gr green tip rounds. Just buying boxes of 20 rounds and testing them.
Why would you pick the 77gr for HD? |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 9:24:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Use the M193. I wouldn't waste MK262 on anything under 200 yards. It's just gettin' warmed up at 300M ! For HD? Read Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo . 193 Is not the worst defense ammo, but there is much better. Also, MK262 is a very good CQ load. The "300 warming up" thing is regarding accuracy. MK262 is accurate from muzzle, but is best at distance. Gel tests at close ranges have had good results. There are lots of MK262 gel tests on google. For = < 100 yards, 69gr match will probably give you better groups. |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 11:04:03 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For HD? Read Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo . 193 Is not the worst defense ammo, but there is much better. Also, MK262 is a very good CQ load. The "300 warming up" thing is regarding accuracy. MK262 is accurate from muzzle, but is best at distance. Gel tests at close ranges have had good results. There are lots of MK262 gel tests on google. For = < 100 yards, 69gr match will probably give you better groups. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Use the M193. I wouldn't waste MK262 on anything under 200 yards. It's just gettin' warmed up at 300M ! For HD? Read Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo . 193 Is not the worst defense ammo, but there is much better. Also, MK262 is a very good CQ load. The "300 warming up" thing is regarding accuracy. MK262 is accurate from muzzle, but is best at distance. Gel tests at close ranges have had good results. There are lots of MK262 gel tests on google. For = < 100 yards, 69gr match will probably give you better groups. Wow! I picked up several thousand rounds of assorted soft point Ammo a few years ago but reading here had convinced me that I had chosen poorly. Thank goodness I never sold it! I was about to buy a few thousand rounds of 77gr IMI too. Might still get some for dedicated SPR use but now I'll have to see what quality sp I can find on sgammo |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 11:57:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:...
Why would you pick the 77gr for HD? What's wrong with 77gr ? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 
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Posted: 1/25/2016 2:07:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's wrong with 77gr MK262 ? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/77grSMK.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:...
Why would you pick the 77gr for HD? What's wrong with 77gr MK262 ? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/77grSMK.jpg MK262 has a longer and more variable ballistic neck with a lower percentage of fragmentation compared to Hornady 75 grain TAP T2, Nosler 77 grain OTM, Black Hills 77 grain Tipped MatchKing and most likely Barnes 85 grain OTM. .... |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 3:07:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MK262 has a longer and more variable ballistic neck with a lower percentage of fragmentation compared to Hornady 75 grain TAP T2, Nosler 77 grain OTM, Black Hills 77 grain Tipped MatchKing and most likely Barnes 85 grain OTM. .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:...
Why would you pick the 77gr for HD? What's wrong with 77gr MK262 ? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/77grSMK.jpg MK262 has a longer and more variable ballistic neck with a lower percentage of fragmentation compared to Hornady 75 grain TAP T2, Nosler 77 grain OTM, Black Hills 77 grain Tipped MatchKing and most likely Barnes 85 grain OTM. .... True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 3:32:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:...
Why would you pick the 77gr for HD? What's wrong with 77gr MK262 ? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/77grSMK.jpg MK262 has a longer and more variable ballistic neck with a lower percentage of fragmentation compared to Hornady 75 grain TAP T2, Nosler 77 grain OTM, Black Hills 77 grain Tipped MatchKing and most likely Barnes 85 grain OTM. .... True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. not a BAD choice and better than m855 but i wouldnt use in over 193 in a HD rifle either. |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 5:22:05 PM EDT
[#38]
I recently bought a half-case of IMI 77 gr RC. Can't wait to try it at 100 in my 16" 1:7 with 4X ACOG.
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Posted: 1/25/2016 10:41:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
not a BAD choice and better than m855 but i wouldnt use in over 193 in a HD rifle either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
snip True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. not a BAD choice and better than m855 but i wouldnt use in over 193 in a HD rifle either. LOL You need to read the Ammo FAQ and Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at the top of the ammo forum page. MK262 is well regarded as good SD ammo. M193 is training ammo and SHTF at best, IMHO. M193 is better than nothing, but should not be a first choice for SD. |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 10:50:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I recently bought a half-case of IMI 77 gr RC. Can't wait to try it at 100 in my 16" 1:7 with 4X ACOG. Yesterday I shot IMI 77gr razorcore for the first time from my 3 gun AR (stretch16, med profile, 16", 1:8, wylde chamber). All groups was sub MOA @ 100 yards. I didn't chrono it, so I don't know the velocity. Hopefully I will get a chance to chrono some this weekend. If my 10.5" SBR likes it I will be buying more. |
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Posted: 1/25/2016 10:55:28 PM EDT
[#41]
IMI “Razor Core” 77 Grain OTM, LR, Mod 1
This load is topped with a 77 grain OTM bullet with a cannelure. The case mouth is sealed and the primers are crimped and sealed. When chronographed from the 20” Colt barrel, the load had a muzzle velocity of 2866 FPS with a standard deviation of 21 FPS. A 10-shot group group fired off the bench from my Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 at a distance of 100 yards had an extreme spread of 0.95”. 
…. |
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Posted: 1/26/2016 12:16:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL You need to read the Ammo FAQ and Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at the top of the ammo forum page. MK262 is well regarded as good SD ammo. M193 is training ammo and SHTF at best, IMHO. M193 is better than nothing, but should not be a first choice for SD. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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snip True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. not a BAD choice and better than m855 but i wouldnt use in over 193 in a HD rifle either. LOL You need to read the Ammo FAQ and Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at the top of the ammo forum page. MK262 is well regarded as good SD ammo. M193 is training ammo and SHTF at best, IMHO. M193 is better than nothing, but should not be a first choice for SD. laugh all you want but i never said 193 was my first choice, just a step above SMK's. reading is fundamental and dont assume things. |
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Posted: 1/26/2016 12:40:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: laugh all you want but i never said 193 was my first choice, just a step above SMK's. reading is fundamental and dont assume things. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip True, but it doesn't make MK262 a bad choice. not a BAD choice and better than m855 but i wouldnt use in over 193 in a HD rifle either. LOL You need to read the Ammo FAQ and Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at the top of the ammo forum page. MK262 is well regarded as good SD ammo. M193 is training ammo and SHTF at best, IMHO. M193 is better than nothing, but should not be a first choice for SD. laugh all you want but i never said 193 was my first choice, just a step above SMK's. reading is fundamental and dont assume things. I've never heard anyone say that M193 is a step above MK262. yes, both are yaw dependent for fragmentation but the SMK seems to be less so. And it also frags out to longer distances than M193. please explain what i'm missing... |
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Posted: 1/26/2016 6:57:18 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've never heard anyone say that M193 is a step above MK262. yes, both are yaw dependent for fragmentation but the SMK seems to be less so. And it also frags out to longer distances than M193. please explain what i'm missing... That the 77 SMK has a lot of variability to terminal ballistics, similar to the "fleet yaw" variability of M855. There are better and more consistent options for defensive use. |
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Posted: 2/6/2016 3:43:14 PM EDT
[#45]
I did find some suitable HD rounds in a forgotten ammo can. I found a few boxes of black hills 5.56 50gr TSX and Speer 64gr GDSP Rem .223. rounds. I also found and fired BHA 69gr SMK Rem .223 rounds at 25 yards with my 16" 1/9 twist barrel. I did buy some IMI 5.56 69gr Razorcore at Cabela's so I am going try firing a few boxes on next trip to range.
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Posted: 2/7/2016 12:37:38 AM EDT
[#46]
Here's the 69gr. 10.5", 16", 20" barrel:  I didn't have the 20" at the time of the 77gr test: I did test it with the 20" but it was when the temps were 30°F cooler: |
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