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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:44:17 PM EDT
[#1]
This thread, though locked has some info:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/678724_AR_15___223_or_5_56__home_defense_ammo___.html All 5.56 SD ammo will penetrate sheet rocks walls. How many walls is the question. Some less than others. T2 TAP and MK 262 are my suggestions and what I load in my SBR for this scenario. They weren't designed for less wall penetration, but they are less likely than bonded bullets to penetrate multiple walls. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:58:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Any suitable 5.56mm loading will penetrate several interior walls unless it impacts something substantial, as will all suitable centerfire handgun rounds. 5.56mm TAP is an excellent option for your 16" carbine, and can be found as low as $14 / 20 if you buy by the case.
Frangible rounds do exist however they will penetrate wood and drywall similar to conventional FMJ, and only perform as engineered when impacting hard steel such as a plate or backstop. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:23:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I haven’t been able to find consistent recommendations on 5.56 loads where the primary requirement is to minimize penetration through barriers in a home defense scenario / urban environment. I’m looking for recommendations for my 5.56 16” 1:7 and 1:8 ARs. It seems like in the past 5 years or so most people generally recommend Hornady 5.56 75gr TAP or MK262 Mod1, but I realize, at least with the MK262, that the bullets were not primarily designed to minimize over-penetration even though it sounds like they are not barrier blind. Are there other rounds that I should be considering given my primary goal? If you have ideas on theory, specific load recommendations, or links to existing discussions that I have failed to find on this topic I’d appreciate your input. What you are looking for does not exist. If it has reduced penetration through walls, it will have reduced penetration in people, and that is a potential lethality problem. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:14:11 PM EDT
[#4]
77gr
..and shoot the intruder, . . . . not the walls 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:55:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Roll the dice if you use something not recommended but 55-60gr vmax will have less overpenetration (and...less tissue penetration, unfortunately)
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Posted: 7/30/2015 12:50:32 AM EDT
[#6]
"Barrier blind" doesn't mean it penetrates barriers any better. It means that it is able to perform adequately after penetrating the barrier.
Read this. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 1:00:37 AM EDT
[#7]
I can testify that the FBIT3 will easily pass through 3 sheet rock walls plus a brick exterior and continue on its merry way.
OP, I think XM193 is probably your best bet for what you want. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 1:03:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Barrier blind" doesn't mean it penetrates barriers any better. It means that it is able to perform adequately after penetrating the barrier. Read this. Agreed. I think you misunderstood my OP. I said not barrier blind. I want it to loose wounding capability once it passes through a barrier, specifically sheet rock. I realize there is no sheet rock that is bullet proof or even close to it, but I'm looking for ammunition that will incapacitate an attacker if I place unobstructed rounds directly on the threat, and at the same time, I want to minimize the wounding capacity of any rounds that miss the target and pass through a barrier. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 2:41:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Something to consider as an alternative to the TAP is the new Sierra 77gr TMK which looks to have outstanding terminal effects. The 77gr MK loads are not as good on terminal effects.
Any suitable self-defense load will penetrate interior walls. Some will fragment to some degree but all will be a hazard. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 1:43:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Roll the dice if you use something not recommended but 55-60gr vmax will have less overpenetration (and...less tissue penetration, unfortunately) That's not totally correct. It was designed to not "over-penetrate" people, however performance in soft tissue is not the same as performance through a barrier such as drywall. Several tests show that a regular softpoint bullet will begin to upset, tumble, and break apart sooner through drywall than 55gr tap. I've tried it myself as well, softpoint was breaking apart faster than 55gr tap for me too. I'm guessing b/c of the large frontal area of the softpoint helps with the upset, where the pinpoint like tip of the TAP just helps it punch through (drywall) undisturbed. Here's one such test. Pay attention to the 55gr tap round (he also does a 40gr vmax which does blow apart right away) and the winchester ranger softpoint tests in 55gr and 64gr.. This is not my test below... but I duplicated it and got similar results. http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html There's a results graph at the bottom of the second page. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 6:44:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. I think you misunderstood my OP. I said not barrier blind. I want it to loose wounding capability once it passes through a barrier, specifically sheet rock. I realize there is no sheet rock that is bullet proof or even close to it, but I'm looking for ammunition that will incapacitate an attacker if I place unobstructed rounds directly on the threat, and at the same time, I want to minimize the wounding capacity of any rounds that miss the target and pass through a barrier. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"Barrier blind" doesn't mean it penetrates barriers any better. It means that it is able to perform adequately after penetrating the barrier. Read this. Agreed. I think you misunderstood my OP. I said not barrier blind. I want it to loose wounding capability once it passes through a barrier, specifically sheet rock. I realize there is no sheet rock that is bullet proof or even close to it, but I'm looking for ammunition that will incapacitate an attacker if I place unobstructed rounds directly on the threat, and at the same time, I want to minimize the wounding capacity of any rounds that miss the target and pass through a barrier. You want a magic bullet. You're going to end up compromising somewhere. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 6:53:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
77gr ..and shoot the intruder, . . . . not the walls this get a good SD, non bonded heavy OTM and train to hit your target. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:08:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You want a magic bullet. You're going to end up compromising somewhere. This. Choose ammunition that is the most effective and train hard so that when the time comes you will be able to put rounds on target and stop the threat quickly. The best things that you can do to reduce risk to uninvolved third parties is to reduce the risk of misses by getting professional training and using a light and optic, using effective ammunition to reduce the number of rounds fired thereby reducing risk of a miss, and most importantly, to follow the fourth rule and do not press the trigger if there is a risk that an innocent person is behind the target. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:32:31 PM EDT
[#14]
This comes up all the time and it is IMO, worrying about nothing. I have posted this challenge to everyone and have yet to get a response. Post a link to an artical where a good guy used a firearm in a (proper) SD shooting and one of his bullets struck an innocent through a wall. I have yet to get anyone to post a response but there are legal shooting in this country every day.
The best way to prevent this is to use the best ammo you can get so you stop the threat, thereby not requiring any more rounds to be fired. You know where your house is and where everyone else may or may not be. Set up where you have the safest back stop you can get. You could always fill your walls with sandbags  JK.
Good luck |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 9:52:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This comes up all the time and it is IMO, worrying about nothing. I have posted this challenge to everyone and have yet to get a response. Post a link to an artical where a good guy used a firearm in a (proper) SD shooting and one of his bullets struck an innocent through a wall. I have yet to get anyone to post a response but there are legal shooting in this country every day. The best way to prevent this is to use the best ammo you can get so you stop the threat, thereby not requiring any more rounds to be fired. You know where your house is and where everyone else may or may not be. Set up where you have the safest back stop you can get. You could always fill your walls with sandbags JK.
Good luck Or cover them with floor tiles. That actually works really well to stop bullets. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 10:25:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Post "Do Not Want" meme right here. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:14:29 PM EDT
[#17]
I'd be curious to see how a Barns Varmet Grenade would work. They are suppose to explode on contract. While fragmented on impact doesn't do good for putting down large targets it would keep it from going through multiple walls.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 12:06:24 AM EDT
[#18]
None of the various V-Max or A-Max .223 loads are a viable choice for SD.
They usually only penetrate 3-4 inches in gel. Heavy clothing would seriously impede those bullets. They are designed to perform that way. A fat guy in a t - shirt might get pretty pissed off. Get a good bonded SP or TSX load. If you ever need to use it in a SD situation you have bigger problems than worrying about it going through walls. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 12:13:44 AM EDT
[#19]
So far I really appreciate the comments that have been constructive. Please see my edited OP asking for the unrelated comments to stop.
Please continue contributing if you have any new information/additional opinions/confirmation of information that people have shared so far: - T2 TAP and MK 262 is definately some of the leading loads that meet my criteria - Sierra 77gr TMK is a promising relatively new load that should be considered - Softpoint loads break apart sooner through drywall than 55gr tap - Get a good SD, non bonded heavy OTM (i.e.MK 262) |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 12:40:22 AM EDT
[#20]
I would think a 55 grain non-bonded soft point would be a great choice. Won't penetrate as much as bonded and maybe some otms, yet should penetrate well and fragment/expand.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:07:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would think a 55 grain non-bonded soft point would be a great choice. Won't penetrate as much as bonded and maybe some otms, yet should penetrate well and fragment/expand. This is something I agree with. I have no problem using this or a 64gr softpoint. Not sure why everyone needs bonded when the non-bonded cup/core bullets do tons damage from the fragmenting and penetration. Same goes for hunting deer... everyone thinks you need a super huge magnum bonded bullet. People have been killing deer sized animals just fine for decades with a simple softpoint bullet. A human will be no harder. I use 55gr softpoint for coyote calling in areas where I have mt. lion too.. I'm fully confident that with this it will be a bad day for a lion if it happens to come in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDBxhjYR25U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcCSjouaFrs |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:25:23 AM EDT
[#22]
You've mentioned the Mk262 more than once. As I mentioned before, I would advise against that (or other loadings of the 77gr Sierra MK) for a defensive application as its terminal effects are known to be somewhat variable.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:43:27 AM EDT
[#23]
.22LR will pass though several pieces of sheet rock and insulation if it doesn't hit any beams. So pretty much everything will do that, hell even several powerful air rifles will go though multiple pieces. Personally if you want it to be LESS lethal if the target is missed, I would go with a ballistic tipped varmint round. Besides how many people that are "home invaders" are 300lb? You really think a shot from a center fire rifle to center mass on a 145-250lb male wont stop him?
That said, I AM NOT advertising 1 shot, 1 hit and check. I am all for continue to aim and fire until you feel the threat is no longer a threat. If that means 5 shots & impacts to the torso / chest area, go for it. Just wouldn't advise firing again once he's on the ground, unless he's armed with a firearm. That might be hard to justify in some liberal DA's mind. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:46:21 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.22LR will pass though several pieces of sheet rock and insulation if it doesn't hit any beams. So pretty much everything will do that, hell even several powerful air rifles will go though multiple pieces. Personally if you want it to be LESS lethal if the target is missed, I would go with a ballistic tipped varmint round. Besides how many people that are "home invaders" are 300lb? You really think a shot from a center fire rifle to center mass on a 145-250lb male wont stop him? That said, I AM NOT advertising 1 shot, 1 hit and check. I am all for continue to aim and fire until you feel the threat is no longer a threat. If that means 5 shots & impacts to the torso / chest area, go for it. Just wouldn't advise firing again once he's on the ground, unless he's armed with a firearm. That might be hard to justify in some liberal DA's mind. Wow. No, just....no. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:34:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is something I agree with. I have no problem using this or a 64gr softpoint. Not sure why everyone needs bonded when the non-bonded cup/core bullets do tons damage from the fragmenting and penetration. Same goes for hunting deer... everyone thinks you need a super huge magnum bonded bullet. People have been killing deer sized animals just fine for decades with a simple softpoint bullet. A human will be no harder. I use 55gr softpoint for coyote calling in areas where I have mt. lion too.. I'm fully confident that with this it will be a bad day for a lion if it happens to come in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDBxhjYR25U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcCSjouaFrs Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would think a 55 grain non-bonded soft point would be a great choice. Won't penetrate as much as bonded and maybe some otms, yet should penetrate well and fragment/expand. This is something I agree with. I have no problem using this or a 64gr softpoint. Not sure why everyone needs bonded when the non-bonded cup/core bullets do tons damage from the fragmenting and penetration. Same goes for hunting deer... everyone thinks you need a super huge magnum bonded bullet. People have been killing deer sized animals just fine for decades with a simple softpoint bullet. A human will be no harder. I use 55gr softpoint for coyote calling in areas where I have mt. lion too.. I'm fully confident that with this it will be a bad day for a lion if it happens to come in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDBxhjYR25U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcCSjouaFrs Depends. Some 55 gr soft point will penetrate adequately and some won't. 
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:39:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.22LR will pass though several pieces of sheet rock and insulation if it doesn't hit any beams. So pretty much everything will do that, hell even several powerful air rifles will go though multiple pieces. Personally if you want it to be LESS lethal if the target is missed, I would go with a ballistic tipped varmint round. Besides how many people that are "home invaders" are 300lb? You really think a shot from a center fire rifle to center mass on a 145-250lb male wont stop him? That said, I AM NOT advertising 1 shot, 1 hit and check. I am all for continue to aim and fire until you feel the threat is no longer a threat. If that means 5 shots & impacts to the torso / chest area, go for it. Just wouldn't advise firing again once he's on the ground, unless he's armed with a firearm. That might be hard to justify in some liberal DA's mind. *sigh* The 12" standard doesn't exist because your attacker might be huge, although that is possible. It exists because shots fired in a fight rarely impact squarely on the front of the chest. They often strike the torso at an angle and/or have to pass through a limb first. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 8:28:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Just go buy some TSX rounds.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 9:01:01 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd be curious to see how a Barns Varmet Grenade would work. They are suppose to explode on contract. While fragmented on impact doesn't do good for putting down large targets it would keep it from going through multiple walls. That's the compromise I'm talking about. You're talking about ammo that compromises the WRONG thing - its intended purpose, to stop the threat. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 11:37:06 AM EDT
[#29]
NYPD always had this concern about overpenetration and the old solution was Remington 55 grain softpoints. Given proper placement, no one ever walked away from a hit from one or two, even with the thirteen inch barrels of Ruger Mini-14s.
The current load is the Federal 55gr TRU with Sierra Gameking HPBT. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 1:19:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends. Some 55 gr soft point will penetrate adequately and some won't.  https://youtu.be/OJsB7q5gpbM
https://youtu.be/xKWojqtvHnE
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would think a 55 grain non-bonded soft point would be a great choice. Won't penetrate as much as bonded and maybe some otms, yet should penetrate well and fragment/expand. This is something I agree with. I have no problem using this or a 64gr softpoint. Not sure why everyone needs bonded when the non-bonded cup/core bullets do tons damage from the fragmenting and penetration. Same goes for hunting deer... everyone thinks you need a super huge magnum bonded bullet. People have been killing deer sized animals just fine for decades with a simple softpoint bullet. A human will be no harder. I use 55gr softpoint for coyote calling in areas where I have mt. lion too.. I'm fully confident that with this it will be a bad day for a lion if it happens to come in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDBxhjYR25U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcCSjouaFrs Depends. Some 55 gr soft point will penetrate adequately and some won't. https://youtu.be/OJsB7q5gpbM
https://youtu.be/xKWojqtvHnE
The 12" is a recommended standard for worst case scenario (on back shooting up through attacker with heavy clothes). However, 10" and above, I'm good with it. Especially considering all the variables that go into such a dynamic situation.. A tap round that struggles to even get to 5" is terrible. A softpoint round doing significant damage the whole way I'm good with. I had to dispatch an injured deer (used a vitals/heart shot due to position of animal) with a 64gr softgpoint, didn't take but 10 sec. for it to be done. Quick and easy. Humans aren't built any tougher than a deer or mt lion. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:07:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NYPD always had this concern about overpenetration and the old solution was Remington 55 grain softpoints. Given proper placement, no one ever walked away from a hit from one or two, even with the thirteen inch barrels of Ruger Mini-14s. The current load is the Federal 55gr TRU with Sierra Gameking HPBT. That's cool. Do you have any data/articles about this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to read about it. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:34:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 12" is a recommended standard for worst case scenario (on back shooting up through attacker with heavy clothes). However, 10" and above, I'm good with it. Especially considering all the variables that go into such a dynamic situation.. A tap round that struggles to even get to 5" is terrible. A softpoint round doing significant damage the whole way I'm good with. I had to dispatch an injured deer (used a vitals/heart shot due to position of animal) with a 64gr softgpoint, didn't take but 10 sec. for it to be done. Quick and easy. Humans aren't built any tougher than a deer or mt lion. No, the 12" minimum is based on the fact that rounds fired in an actual fight rarely impact the torso squarely. They usually impact at an able and often only after passing through a limb or intermediate obstacles. That said, several law enforcement agencies have chosen duty ammo that falls a little short of that 12" mark. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 4:03:23 PM EDT
[#33]
My agency also issues the Fed 55 Gameking load. We have had numerous OIS with it and no one has walked away yet and very few have lived. Our agency is terrified of over penetration liability, although our 40's and 12GA will penetrate much more hard cover than the 223. It's a decent load but I would personally much prefer the Fusion MSR...
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Posted: 7/31/2015 6:58:59 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's cool. Do you have any data/articles about this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to read about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
NYPD always had this concern about overpenetration and the old solution was Remington 55 grain softpoints. Given proper placement, no one ever walked away from a hit from one or two, even with the thirteen inch barrels of Ruger Mini-14s. The current load is the Federal 55gr TRU with Sierra Gameking HPBT. That's cool. Do you have any data/articles about this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to read about it. Not really. This department rarely advertised its choices in duty ammo. I'm sure some guy who retired on disability will show up to confirm. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 2:20:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not really. This department rarely advertised its choices in duty ammo. I'm sure some guy who retired on disability will show up to confirm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
NYPD always had this concern about overpenetration and the old solution was Remington 55 grain softpoints. Given proper placement, no one ever walked away from a hit from one or two, even with the thirteen inch barrels of Ruger Mini-14s. The current load is the Federal 55gr TRU with Sierra Gameking HPBT. That's cool. Do you have any data/articles about this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to read about it. Not really. This department rarely advertised its choices in duty ammo. I'm sure some guy who retired on disability will show up to confirm. No worries. |
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