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Posted: 4/15/2015 10:15:07 AM EDT
[#1]
Mrgunsngear has a review of the V-Max round out of a 16" and 10.5" SBR
It penetrated and expanded well, but experienced a lot of fragmentation and jacket seperation in the 16". It did really well in the SBR. There really isn't a lot of premium ammo for 5.45. He also did Wolf WPA SP, which did surprisingly well. Of course, there is no guarantee that the projectile you get will be the same as the one he tested. |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 11:31:00 AM EDT
[#2]
If you want some 7n6, here you go!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_133/1423668_Sealed_1080rd_Can_of_Russian_5_45x39_7n6_52gr.html |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 11:31:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD.
Google "Poison Bullet." |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 12:33:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Fragmentation isn't necessarily bad, as long as it is neither too early or too late. That's what everybody wanted in .223/5.56x45 before "barrier blind" became the buzzword.
The problems with 7N6 are... banned = gonna dry up pretty soon
corrosive = PITA (I kinda like the "only clean an AK every 1000 rounds" and Pat Rogers' "never clean your AR just keep squirting oil in" approaches) |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 2:35:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. +1 |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 7:16:36 PM EDT
[#6]
This ammo works good on coyotes I think it would work good for HD.
http://ammunitionstore.com/products/5-45x39-ammo-55gr-hp-wolf-wpa-military-classic-750-round-case.html or http://ammunitionstore.com/products/5-45x39-ammo-55gr-sp-wolf-wpa-military-classic-750-round-case.html |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 7:20:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This ammo works good on coyotes I think it would work good for HD. http://ammunitionstore.com/products/5-45x39-ammo-55gr-hp-wolf-wpa-military-classic-750-round-case.html or http://ammunitionstore.com/products/5-45x39-ammo-55gr-sp-wolf-wpa-military-classic-750-round-case.html Does it expand? |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 11:06:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. 
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Posted: 4/16/2015 11:06:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. OK, to answer the OP's question, which 5.45x39 round would you recommend for HD? |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 3:19:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, to answer the OP's question, which 5.45x39 round would you recommend for HD? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. OK, to answer the OP's question, which 5.45x39 round would you recommend for HD? WPA 55gr SP or Hornady 60gr vmax |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 8:36:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Hornady out of a full-size rifle.
I'd still go with 7n6 out of an SBR (AKSU). |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 10:23:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. Pushto is figurative language, they often used compatible phrasing instead quantative descriptions. The example often cited is instead of saying the dog is big, they say something like the dog is the size of a mule |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 2:21:41 PM EDT
[#13]
With the availability and cheapness of 5.56, i see no reason to use 5.45 for anything
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Posted: 4/18/2015 5:12:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the availability and cheapness of 5.56, i see no reason to use 5.45 for anything Except for those of us who put away 5.45 when it was $0.10, $0.11, etc. per round. At those prices, it's cheaper than 22LR. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 5:17:12 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pushto is figurative language, they often used compatible phrasing instead quantative descriptions. The example often cited is instead of saying the dog is big, they say something like the dog is the size of a mule Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." Whole lot of BS and propaganda. DocGKR talked to some SF folks who did some research on story in Afghanistan. Apparently the "poison" part in poison bullet actually translated to the poison sting of a wasp. So what they actually meant was that 5.45 hit like a bee sting. Pushto is figurative language, they often used compatible phrasing instead quantative descriptions. The example often cited is instead of saying the dog is big, they say something like the dog is the size of a mule Yea, I wasn't going to address that. I'm sure a guy hit by 5.45 would say "Hey, that felt like a bee sting!". To use your reference, more like kicked by a mule. Folklore or not, the Afghans I've talked to did not like the 5.45 at all; its tendency to tumble created untreatable wounds and poison, referring to infection/sepsis or not, guys hit with 5.45 didn't fare well. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 6:54:55 AM EDT
[#16]
That's probably what the bullet was designed for in the first place. The intentional, large air space in the nose, and the steel insert (NOT a core) makes the 7n6 bullet tumble more radically than other spitzer-type bullets. The steel jacket won't fragment, but holding together means that the tumbling does a whole lot of damage.
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Posted: 4/18/2015 8:45:19 AM EDT
[#17]
While yawing bullets do more damage than a bullet that stays point forward as it travels through tissue, its completely inferior to expanding or fragmenting rounds. The latter can easily be found for not much more than 7n6 these days. I have 2 cases of 7n6 left and I consider it practice ammo.
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Posted: 4/18/2015 10:05:26 AM EDT
[#18]
I've shot lots of stuff (mostly hogs and yotes) with 5.45. The Wolf FMJ is junk, it pokes 5.45 holes straight through, and they don't do much damage. 7N6 is MUCH better. Sometimes it is devastating, sometimes not so much. It is equivalent to M193 in my experience.
The Hornady load is my favorite. In my experience, it always expands and produces significant wounds, and holds together better than expected. It has always penetrated through and through on coyotes, with the exception of one frontal shot which left him DRT. It often penetrates through and through on hogs, but not always. I'd guess it gives 10-14" of penetration from a 16" tube @100 yards. I'm not sure why it penetrates so well, it acts more like an SST than a Vmax. Maybe the added weight slows it down enough to keep it from exploding? At any rate, it is very consistent, much more so than 7N6 or M193. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 10:11:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've shot lots of stuff (mostly hogs and yotes) with 5.45. The Wolf FMJ is junk, it pokes 5.45 holes straight through, and they don't do much damage. 7N6 is MUCH better. Sometimes it is devastating, sometimes not so much. It is equivalent to M193 in my experience. The Hornady load is my favorite. In my experience, it always expands and produces significant wounds, and holds together better than expected. It has always penetrated through and through on coyotes, with the exception of one frontal shot which left him DRT. It often penetrates through and through on hogs, but not always. I'd guess it gives 10-14" of penetration from a 16" tube @100 yards. I'm not sure why it penetrates so well, it acts more like an SST than a Vmax. Maybe the added weight slows it down enough to keep it from exploding? At any rate, it is very consistent, much more so than 7N6 or M193. You help make my point: there are plenty of exotic 5.56 rounds which would be better for HD, and one, perhaps two exotic 5.45 rounds which would be good for HD. But 7n6 isn't bad, still won't be bad out of a short barrel, and is much more effective than it's non-exotic and/or military counterparts, such as M193, 855, etc. Out of the three (7n6, M193 & M855), if you had to be hit with one, I don't think 7n6 would be #1 or even #2. Another beauty of 7n6 is it does make good practice ammo...and HD ammo so there's no switching required. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 12:44:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You help make my point: there are plenty of exotic 5.56 rounds which would be better for HD, and one, perhaps two exotic 5.45 rounds which would be good for HD. But 7n6 isn't bad, still won't be bad out of a short barrel, and is much more effective than it's non-exotic and/or military counterparts, such as M193, 855, etc. Out of the three (7n6, M193 & M855), if you had to be hit with one, I don't think 7n6 would be #1 or even #2. Another beauty of 7n6 is it does make good practice ammo...and HD ammo so there's no switching required. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've shot lots of stuff (mostly hogs and yotes) with 5.45. The Wolf FMJ is junk, it pokes 5.45 holes straight through, and they don't do much damage. 7N6 is MUCH better. Sometimes it is devastating, sometimes not so much. It is equivalent to M193 in my experience. The Hornady load is my favorite. In my experience, it always expands and produces significant wounds, and holds together better than expected. It has always penetrated through and through on coyotes, with the exception of one frontal shot which left him DRT. It often penetrates through and through on hogs, but not always. I'd guess it gives 10-14" of penetration from a 16" tube @100 yards. I'm not sure why it penetrates so well, it acts more like an SST than a Vmax. Maybe the added weight slows it down enough to keep it from exploding? At any rate, it is very consistent, much more so than 7N6 or M193. You help make my point: there are plenty of exotic 5.56 rounds which would be better for HD, and one, perhaps two exotic 5.45 rounds which would be good for HD. But 7n6 isn't bad, still won't be bad out of a short barrel, and is much more effective than it's non-exotic and/or military counterparts, such as M193, 855, etc. Out of the three (7n6, M193 & M855), if you had to be hit with one, I don't think 7n6 would be #1 or even #2. Another beauty of 7n6 is it does make good practice ammo...and HD ammo so there's no switching required. If M193 and M855 hit above their fragmentation velocity then yes absolutely shoot me with 5.45. I dont want this happening to me: M193 to the leg |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 3:22:43 PM EDT
[#21]
RE 5.56mm, to clarify I'm specifically thinking about the AK scenario (still debating full-size vs Krinkov). I have plenty of AR's in 5.56mm, and have no interest in a 5.45mm AR. Arsenal has discontinued their line of 5.56mm AK's and I expect them to pretty much be dried up by the time I get ready to take on another gun project, and 5.56mm AK's in general don't get the best feedback. Anyway, at this stage I'm just doing preliminary research. Part of that is determining whether with whatever ammo there is a viable choice for defense ammo in the 5.45mm caliber (and again assuming 7N6 is going to dry up soon, too - yes I know you can still stock up pretty cheap today, but a year hence?). If the answer was that 5.45mm is basically a terminal ballistic dog (apparently not from the posts above about the Hornady in actual live critters) then my thinking would go towards either a Krinkov style AK in 7.62x39mm, or some other project altogether.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 12:18:27 AM EDT
[#22]
If I were (and I did) go the AKSU route I would definitely go 5.45 and put away some 7n6. Even now 7n6 is little cheaper than the 7.62 alternative and if 7n6 goes away altogether the non-surplus is about the same as 7.62.
Of course, as with any caliber, there is the chance that supplies will completely dry up; which is why I put away enough to shoot out the barrel, then buy another barrel, and more ammo... |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 10:07:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You help make my point: there are plenty of exotic 5.56 rounds which would be better for HD, and one, perhaps two exotic 5.45 rounds which would be good for HD. But 7n6 isn't bad, still won't be bad out of a short barrel, and is much more effective than it's non-exotic and/or military counterparts, such as M193, 855, etc. Out of the three (7n6, M193 & M855), if you had to be hit with one, I don't think 7n6 would be #1 or even #2. Another beauty of 7n6 is it does make good practice ammo...and HD ammo so there's no switching required. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've shot lots of stuff (mostly hogs and yotes) with 5.45. The Wolf FMJ is junk, it pokes 5.45 holes straight through, and they don't do much damage. 7N6 is MUCH better. Sometimes it is devastating, sometimes not so much. It is equivalent to M193 in my experience. The Hornady load is my favorite. In my experience, it always expands and produces significant wounds, and holds together better than expected. It has always penetrated through and through on coyotes, with the exception of one frontal shot which left him DRT. It often penetrates through and through on hogs, but not always. I'd guess it gives 10-14" of penetration from a 16" tube @100 yards. I'm not sure why it penetrates so well, it acts more like an SST than a Vmax. Maybe the added weight slows it down enough to keep it from exploding? At any rate, it is very consistent, much more so than 7N6 or M193. You help make my point: there are plenty of exotic 5.56 rounds which would be better for HD, and one, perhaps two exotic 5.45 rounds which would be good for HD. But 7n6 isn't bad, still won't be bad out of a short barrel, and is much more effective than it's non-exotic and/or military counterparts, such as M193, 855, etc. Out of the three (7n6, M193 & M855), if you had to be hit with one, I don't think 7n6 would be #1 or even #2. Another beauty of 7n6 is it does make good practice ammo...and HD ammo so there's no switching required. No, I didn't help make your point, in fact, I said the opposite. Shoot what you want; I don't care, but both 7N6, M193, and especially M855 have high instances of non yaw/fragmentation (yes, even above the frag velocity). I'd estimate around 20-30% of the time M193 and 7n6 fail to produce significant wounds. In my experience, the 5.45 Vmax produces similar wounds 100% of the time, though I'm sure it will fail on occasion. For me, I want consistency in a HD round. I want to maximize the probability of high terminal performance. That rules out 7n6. I would love for it to be better, I have 15k ish rounds I bought for 9 cents per from ORF back in the day. Also, since I can outperform 5.45 Vmax with several 5.56 loads, the 5.45 is out for me as a HD caliber. I don't have any 5.45 SBRs (and for the reasons above, I won't be buying an upper to put on either of my lowers), so I can't attest to 5.45 through a short barrel, but, as a general rule, lower velocity doesn't improve terminal results. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 1:01:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I didn't help make your point, in fact, I said the opposite. Shoot what you want; I don't care, but both 7N6, M193, and especially M855 have high instances of non yaw/fragmentation (yes, even above the frag velocity). I'd estimate around 20-30% of the time M193 and 7n6 fail to produce significant wounds. In my experience, the 5.45 Vmax produces similar wounds 100% of the time, though I'm sure it will fail on occasion. Not a challenge, just a question: I'm interested in what data you based your estimate on. Ranges, conditions, clothing/armor/equipment, etc. M193 in particular is noted to "punch through" bad guys at close-ish ranges, and I've read some interesting stuff about there being a minimum fragmentation range within which all you get is clean puncture wounds. The spitzer-style bullet design loses stability as it transitions from one medium to another (i.e. air to flesh). The base end of the bullet should retain kinetic energy even when the tip is slowed down by impact, which is the mechanism through which tumbling is initiated. The theory is that whatever precession/yaw was going on with the bullet at impact will control which direction the bullet's base goes, which drives the direction of the tumble. HOWEVER, if the bullet is going too fast, the point punches through and doesn't cause the bullet to destabilize enough to tumble. This is also in line with the "minimum" fragmentation range concept. If your real world experience with wounding was at very close ranges, it's possible that the rounds were just going too fast to have enhanced terminal effects like tumbling and fragmentation. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 6:55:52 PM EDT
[#25]
First, my "testing" isn't scientific at all, it is basically just shooting stuff.
 That said, I've punched M193 into all kinds of critters (hogs, coyotes, and lots of other stuff), from all kinds of ranges (5-300+yards) and through all kinds of barrels (10.5-24"). I haven't noticed a drop off in fragmentation with added velocity. I've seen the opposite; as velocity increases fragmentation (thus wound trauma) increases.
What I am talking about isn't linear, it is a seemingly random failure of bullets to yaw/fragment/create a large traumatic wound. I've seen it happen at close and long range. It isn't a constant problem, like I said, I see it maybe 20-30% of the time, regardless of impact velocity (determined by range and barrel lenth). The bottom line is sometimes they just don't work. Conversely, one of the nastiest wounds I've seen from M193 was in a coyote shot at nearly 300 yards from a 16" tube. It should have been well below the frag threshold, but it flat tore him up. Like I said before, for an important shot (HD would be the most important shot of which I can think, but I would include deer hunting) I want consistency. IOW, I want the bullet to perform in the maximum number of scenarios. M193, 7N6, and to a lesser degree M855 create great wounds when they function as advertised. The problem is that sometimes they don't. If they blew stuff up every time there wouldn't be any such thing as modern bonded bullets, TSX, etc. Those loads aren't so much better than the best M193 shot, but their worst performance is FAR superior to the worst M193. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 8:48:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. Further, depending on which M193 you were shooting, the bullet may or may not have been "fragmentable." If it was actual GI M193, that's one thing, but a lot of "clones" use bullets that aren't going to fragment at all. For example, Hornady's truly superb 55gr FMJ bullets have a much thicker jacket than what goes in GI M193, and it won't fragment, period. Steel jackets won't either. With that said, there have to be other factors neither of us is thinking of that are at play, perhaps related to the sizes of the critters you've shot, or something else equally abstract...
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Posted: 4/19/2015 9:22:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. That has not been my experience. Most of what I've shot has been XM193, though some has been the various surpluses from around the world. One of the better performers (both accuracy and terminally) for me has been the old blue box S&B. Make what excuses you will for M193, it simply doesn't perform consistently, and whatever magical circumstances are able to foil it don't affect modern bonded bullets. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 9:26:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Depends on the composition/design of the projectile.
All of the Soviet designed 5.45 bullets had a a void under the jacket in the nose, similar to the British .303 Mk7. This would cause early tumbling and fragmenting. The current non-bannded stuff is this design, lead with a tip void. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 10:11:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That has not been my experience. Most of what I've shot has been XM193, though some has been the various surpluses from around the world. One of the better performers (both accuracy and terminally) for me has been the old blue box S&B. Make what excuses you will for M193, it simply doesn't perform consistently, and whatever magical circumstances are able to foil it don't affect modern bonded bullets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. That has not been my experience. Most of what I've shot has been XM193, though some has been the various surpluses from around the world. One of the better performers (both accuracy and terminally) for me has been the old blue box S&B. Make what excuses you will for M193, it simply doesn't perform consistently, and whatever magical circumstances are able to foil it don't affect modern bonded bullets. I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why so many people have had the opposite experience from what you report. The physics of spitzer-type bullets isn't some magical anything; read this well presented, scholarly work on the subject (search the page for "spitzer" to cut to the chase). Because the center of mass of this bullet design is behind what's called its "center of pressure," when a spitzer bullet encounters a change in its flight medium (from air to tissue), it is destabilized. Not mumbo-jumbo, but something that was seen and recognized when the bullet design was first introduced in the 1880s. (That's EIGHTEEN 80s...) |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 10:47:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
RE 5.56mm, to clarify I'm specifically thinking about the AK scenario (still debating full-size vs Krinkov). I have plenty of AR's in 5.56mm, and have no interest in a 5.45mm AR. Arsenal has discontinued their line of 5.56mm AK's and I expect them to pretty much be dried up by the time I get ready to take on another gun project, and 5.56mm AK's in general don't get the best feedback. Anyway, at this stage I'm just doing preliminary research. Part of that is determining whether with whatever ammo there is a viable choice for defense ammo in the 5.45mm caliber (and again assuming 7N6 is going to dry up soon, too - yes I know you can still stock up pretty cheap today, but a year hence?). If the answer was that 5.45mm is basically a terminal ballistic dog (apparently not from the posts above about the Hornady in actual live critters) then my thinking would go towards either a Krinkov style AK in 7.62x39mm, or some other project altogether. Then why did you post this in the ar subforum? |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 10:48:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I didn't help make your point, in fact, I said the opposite. Shoot what you want; I don't care, but both 7N6, M193, and especially M855 have high instances of non yaw/fragmentation (yes, even above the frag velocity). I'd estimate around 20-30% of the time M193 and 7n6 fail to produce significant wounds. In my experience, the 5.45 Vmax produces similar wounds 100% of the time, though I'm sure it will fail on occasion. For me, I want consistency in a HD round. I want to maximize the probability of high terminal performance. That rules out 7n6. I would love for it to be better, I have 15k ish rounds I bought for 9 cents per from ORF back in the day. Also, since I can outperform 5.45 Vmax with several 5.56 loads, the 5.45 is out for me as a HD caliber. I don't have any 5.45 SBRs (and for the reasons above, I won't be buying an upper to put on either of my lowers), so I can't attest to 5.45 through a short barrel, but, as a general rule, lower velocity doesn't improve terminal results. Well, you may not have realized it, but you did. In different words, you said exactly what I said. And then you did it again. My points were/are: 1. There are several exotic (mil and otherwise) 5.56 rounds which outperform 7n6, so no argument there. 2. "Conventional" mil ball rounds (like M193 and 855) were deemed inconsistent enough that the development of better performing rounds was considered a top priority by the .mil and resulted in COTS and organic exotics (Mk262, Mk318, etc.). No argument there. But OP's question was about 5.45 and not 5.45 versus 5.56, so: 3. There is at least one 5.45 round, Vmax, which performs well, but is frag/velocity dependent. Again, no argument. 4. 7n6 derives it's consistency, by design, short barrel or long by relying upon tumbling versus fragmentation. So worst case for 7n6 is that is performs like ball. The nominal case for 7n6 is that is tumbles creating a much more significant wound channel than similar FMJ counterparts. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 3:28:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then why did you post this in the ar subforum? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
RE 5.56mm, to clarify I'm specifically thinking about the AK scenario (still debating full-size vs Krinkov). I have plenty of AR's in 5.56mm, and have no interest in a 5.45mm AR. Arsenal has discontinued their line of 5.56mm AK's and I expect them to pretty much be dried up by the time I get ready to take on another gun project, and 5.56mm AK's in general don't get the best feedback. Anyway, at this stage I'm just doing preliminary research. Part of that is determining whether with whatever ammo there is a viable choice for defense ammo in the 5.45mm caliber (and again assuming 7N6 is going to dry up soon, too - yes I know you can still stock up pretty cheap today, but a year hence?). If the answer was that 5.45mm is basically a terminal ballistic dog (apparently not from the posts above about the Hornady in actual live critters) then my thinking would go towards either a Krinkov style AK in 7.62x39mm, or some other project altogether. Then why did you post this in the ar subforum? Because there are a lot of people here with expertise in terminal ballistics of various cartridges, which is basically independent of the mechanical design (aside from barrel length) of the weapon firing the cartridge. By comparison, the discourse on the subject seems less informed in most other places. |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 3:08:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surplus 7n6 is the ammo for HD. Google "Poison Bullet." It's kind of an urban myth though. Given the choice between 7n6 and a 60gr VMAX, I'd go for the latter. I see this has been covered already. |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 3:11:46 PM EDT
[#34]
OP: The problem with 5.45x39 is simply that it's not a common caliber, hence bullet selection is non-existent. During the majority of its life, 5.56x45 fared no better. ARs were exotic guns, and FMJ is what you got. With the explosion in the AR's popularity, bullet manufacturers started paying attention and finally started making well-performing bullets for it. There's no reason why they couldn't do that for 5.45 except for the fact that it's not worth their time and effort for a caliber that hardly anyone (relatively speaking) shoots.
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Posted: 4/21/2015 5:41:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP: The problem with 5.45x39 is simply that it's not a common caliber, hence bullet selection is non-existent. During the majority of its life, 5.56x45 fared no better. ARs were exotic guns, and FMJ is what you got. With the explosion in the AR's popularity, bullet manufacturers started paying attention and finally started making well-performing bullets for it. There's no reason why they couldn't do that for 5.45 except for the fact that it's not worth their time and effort for a caliber that hardly anyone (relatively speaking) shoots. Give it twenty years.... |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 8:10:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Give it twenty years.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP: The problem with 5.45x39 is simply that it's not a common caliber, hence bullet selection is non-existent. During the majority of its life, 5.56x45 fared no better. ARs were exotic guns, and FMJ is what you got. With the explosion in the AR's popularity, bullet manufacturers started paying attention and finally started making well-performing bullets for it. There's no reason why they couldn't do that for 5.45 except for the fact that it's not worth their time and effort for a caliber that hardly anyone (relatively speaking) shoots. Give it twenty years.... I doubt that. If anything 5.45 popularity has gone down since the 7n6 import ban. Its a shame too since I think that the 5.45 is a superior cartridge by design, almost like a 5.56 gen 2 evolution as it can potentially take much longer VLD bullets without eating up as much case capacity as a 5.56 cartridge. |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 8:26:00 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 4/21/2015 10:40:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryNot very impressive. If you wait until the gel settles down, it will not have a large permanent cavity. |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 11:01:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why so many people have had the opposite experience from what you report. The physics of spitzer-type bullets isn't some magical anything; read this well presented, scholarly work on the subject (search the page for "spitzer" to cut to the chase). Because the center of mass of this bullet design is behind what's called its "center of pressure," when a spitzer bullet encounters a change in its flight medium (from air to tissue), it is destabilized. Not mumbo-jumbo, but something that was seen and recognized when the bullet design was first introduced in the 1880s. (That's EIGHTEEN 80s...) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. That has not been my experience. Most of what I've shot has been XM193, though some has been the various surpluses from around the world. One of the better performers (both accuracy and terminally) for me has been the old blue box S&B. Make what excuses you will for M193, it simply doesn't perform consistently, and whatever magical circumstances are able to foil it don't affect modern bonded bullets. I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why so many people have had the opposite experience from what you report. The physics of spitzer-type bullets isn't some magical anything; read this well presented, scholarly work on the subject (search the page for "spitzer" to cut to the chase). Because the center of mass of this bullet design is behind what's called its "center of pressure," when a spitzer bullet encounters a change in its flight medium (from air to tissue), it is destabilized. Not mumbo-jumbo, but something that was seen and recognized when the bullet design was first introduced in the 1880s. (That's EIGHTEEN 80s...) I read the article (interesting read), it doesn't say anything that is inconsistent with what I've said. I think it disagrees with your theory that tumbling is lessened by increased impact velocity, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure why you think I am arguing against spritzer bullets becoming destabilized on impact, I've not said any such thing. I would repeat myself, but why? If you choose to believe M193 or 7n6 produce devastating wound channels every time, I won't stand in your way. |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 11:17:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not very impressive. If you wait until the gel settles down, it will not have a large permanent cavity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Not very impressive. If you wait until the gel settles down, it will not have a large permanent cavity. its a little impressive if you take into account the damage that the temporary cavity from a high velocity rifle round will do to non-elastic organs. iirc, Fackler stated that the temp cavity from 7n6 basically emulsified a pig liver in one of his tests |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 10:18:05 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that. If anything 5.45 popularity has gone down since the 7n6 import ban... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP: The problem with 5.45x39 is simply that it's not a common caliber, hence bullet selection is non-existent. During the majority of its life, 5.56x45 fared no better. ARs were exotic guns, and FMJ is what you got. With the explosion in the AR's popularity, bullet manufacturers started paying attention and finally started making well-performing bullets for it. There's no reason why they couldn't do that for 5.45 except for the fact that it's not worth their time and effort for a caliber that hardly anyone (relatively speaking) shoots. Give it twenty years.... I doubt that. If anything 5.45 popularity has gone down since the 7n6 import ban... Yeah, I thought that to back in 1994.... |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 11:23:00 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: its a little impressive if you take into account the damage that the temporary cavity from a high velocity rifle round will do to non-elastic organs. iirc, Fackler stated that the temp cavity from 7n6 basically emulsified a pig liver in one of his tests Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not very impressive. If you wait until the gel settles down, it will not have a large permanent cavity. its a little impressive if you take into account the damage that the temporary cavity from a high velocity rifle round will do to non-elastic organs. iirc, Fackler stated that the temp cavity from 7n6 basically emulsified a pig liver in one of his tests ANY conical rifle bullet will have a temporary cavity like that. I am fully aware of the possibility of the temporary cavity causing damage to non-elastic tissues, but that only helps when you actually hit one of those organs. 7n6 is certainly better than some other choices, but there are tons of choices which perform better. If someone is using 5.45 as their primary caliber, I would suggest they start stocking up on Hornady's 60gr VMAX and build a stash over time. |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 11:29:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've shot lots of stuff (mostly hogs and yotes) with 5.45. The Wolf FMJ is junk, it pokes 5.45 holes straight through, and they don't do much damage. 7N6 is MUCH better. Sometimes it is devastating, sometimes not so much. It is equivalent to M193 in my experience. The Hornady load is my favorite. In my experience, it always expands and produces significant wounds, and holds together better than expected. It has always penetrated through and through on coyotes, with the exception of one frontal shot which left him DRT. It often penetrates through and through on hogs, but not always. I'd guess it gives 10-14" of penetration from a 16" tube @100 yards. I'm not sure why it penetrates so well, it acts more like an SST than a Vmax. Maybe the added weight slows it down enough to keep it from exploding? At any rate, it is very consistent, much more so than 7N6 or M193. How does M193 do on the hogs at what ranges? You mention they perform the same as 7N6 roughly. Both in terms of permanent cavity and penetration? If M193 and 7N6 fail roughly 25% of the time, what would you say the failure is with M855 since you mentioned it's slightly worse? Does distance effect the failure figures at all from your experience with any of these rounds? How does the fusion perform? Have you tried Fiocchi's 55 grain psp round? What in your experience is the top performing 5.56 / .223 round? Have you tried any of the old Norinco or Tula .223? Rumor has it that for some reason they have a habit of yawing violently and early like a 7N6 round. |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 8:35:25 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read the article (interesting read), it doesn't say anything that is inconsistent with what I've said. I think it disagrees with your theory that tumbling is lessened by increased impact velocity, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure why you think I am arguing against spritzer bullets becoming destabilized on impact, I've not said any such thing. I would repeat myself, but why? If you choose to believe M193 or 7n6 produce devastating wound channels every time, I won't stand in your way. |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 9:59:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My point with that article was about how spitzer bullets' are supposed to become destabilized and will tumble. I haven't found any real data on why these bullets will punch through targets at very close ranges, but there are lots of field reports of nice, clean little entrance and exit wounds from solid M16 hits at 10 yards or so. What I have already said I was trying to do was to understand why your experience wasn't in line with so much other information that has been widely shared. I have not ever challenged you or your experience. I have only said that I wanted to know more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I read the article (interesting read), it doesn't say anything that is inconsistent with what I've said. I think it disagrees with your theory that tumbling is lessened by increased impact velocity, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure why you think I am arguing against spritzer bullets becoming destabilized on impact, I've not said any such thing. I would repeat myself, but why? If you choose to believe M193 or 7n6 produce devastating wound channels every time, I won't stand in your way. My question was addressing Eat_Beef and his real world experience. |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 10:38:23 PM EDT
[#46]
I used my AK-74 in a 3 day carbine class. During of one of the live fire house shots, I shot the a Bad Guy target (on cardboard) at a distance less than 15ft. The 7n6 round made a bee sting hole on the Bad Guy than went sideways into the bystander target that is 10 inches behind it. It went sideways after hitting cardboard from 15ft away.
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Posted: 4/22/2015 10:55:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used my AK-74 in a 3 day carbine class. During of one of the live fire house shots, I shot the a Bad Guy target (on cardboard) at a distance less than 15ft. The 7n6 round made a bee sting hole on the Bad Guy than went sideways into the bystander target that is 10 inches behind it. It went sideways after hitting cardboard from 15ft away. Which means what? |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 12:55:08 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. Further, depending on which M193 you were shooting, the bullet may or may not have been "fragmentable." If it was actual GI M193, that's one thing, but a lot of "clones" use bullets that aren't going to fragment at all. For example, Hornady's truly superb 55gr FMJ bullets have a much thicker jacket than what goes in GI M193, and it won't fragment, period. Steel jackets won't either. With that said, there have to be other factors neither of us is thinking of that are at play, perhaps related to the sizes of the critters you've shot, or something else equally abstract... I'm sorry but you're flat wrong on both counts.
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Posted: 4/23/2015 7:03:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry but you're flat wrong on both counts.  https://youtu.be/gqqZK6rrjA8
https://youtu.be/P9hfyH-aoL4Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Really close in, as in 10 yards or so, it's hard for anything to either fragment or tumble. Further, depending on which M193 you were shooting, the bullet may or may not have been "fragmentable." If it was actual GI M193, that's one thing, but a lot of "clones" use bullets that aren't going to fragment at all. For example, Hornady's truly superb 55gr FMJ bullets have a much thicker jacket than what goes in GI M193, and it won't fragment, period. Steel jackets won't either. With that said, there have to be other factors neither of us is thinking of that are at play, perhaps related to the sizes of the critters you've shot, or something else equally abstract... I'm sorry but you're flat wrong on both counts. https://youtu.be/gqqZK6rrjA8
https://youtu.be/P9hfyH-aoL4 |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 1:07:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
snip/ I haven't found any real data on why these bullets will punch through targets at very close ranges, but there are lots of field reports of nice, clean little entrance and exit wounds from solid M16 hits at 10 yards or so. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I read the article (interesting read), it doesn't say anything that is inconsistent with what I've said. I think it disagrees with your theory that tumbling is lessened by increased impact velocity, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure why you think I am arguing against spritzer bullets becoming destabilized on impact, I've not said any such thing. I would repeat myself, but why? If you choose to believe M193 or 7n6 produce devastating wound channels every time, I won't stand in your way. What I am saying is that they do that at all ranges. I don't know why, I just know it happens. The problem isn't with the range, as the physics involved have nothing to do with range, only impact velocity/angle/target/etc. Blaine, I've answered most of your questions in previous posts in this thread. I would guess M855 has failed me personally 50+% of the time, but I would add, I quit using it because of its poor performance, so I haven't put a lot of M855 into flesh. Same thing with Fusion, I've actually only put 3 rounds into one pig, and it performed well, roughly as well as 64gr Gold Dot, which is my favorite. I'm still testing bullets, I have a fascination both with shooting stuff and seeing what the bullet did afterword. So far I prefer a bonded bullet to anything else on medium game. The only caveat is that if you seek penetration at the cost of less trauma (smaller wound track), the solid copper pills (TSX, etc.) are better. |
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