Hey Guys, I am looking for any insight.  I had a Rock River Arms Predator Pursuit shooting Silver State Armory 63gr 5.56 Soft-Point blow-up on me. It was the fourth round in the magazine, I fired 1,2,3 and the 4th round entered the chamber completely and upon pulling the trigger a bomb went off right by my face.  The pressure blew the bottom out of the magazine, it cracked the bolt carrier, it bowed the upper.  The bolt carrier was fully forward and I was unable to pull the bolt carrier back. (I can send images via email upon request)
There was no damage to the barrel.

I sent the gun off to RRA and the diagnosis was an overpressure scenario as stated in their official report. I am also looking at $650 in repairs as RRA has discounted some of the parts.  I then sent this report to SSA and they are having trouble with diagnosing what could have occurred.  I live in the Kansas City area and have discussed this scenario with several gun shops, gun smiths, and gun builders.  They all say the most likely cause is faulty ammunition.  

I did send the rest of that box of ammunition back to SSA for them to test in their lab.  They found nothing with the remaining rounds.

The SSA representative explained a couple different points to me:
1. He states there is not enough pressure that can be created from a 5.56 round to blow-up a gun
2. He states that there is no way that they could have used the wrong powder (pistol/revolver)
3. He stated that it could not have been a telescoping round, as the case powder density is such that there is no available remaining space for a bullet to be pushed back into the case. In addition unlike home hand loading, production loads undergo push tests where force is applied to assure that the bullet cannot be pushed back in the case without the use of excessive force.

SO ANY THOUGHTS FROM YA'LL??

My gun looks like this: http://loadoutroom.com/3966/ammunition-malfunction-blows-up-ar-15/

Seems like I would be a bit more persuasive with SSA.  That is some bullshit bub.

I am assuming you checked for squibs?

Not sure how much difference it makes, but that gun has a .223 Wylde chamber.

Did the first 3 rounds leave the barrel/hit the target??

What load?
Lot number?

Hey man, sorry to hear about you gun. But if all your looking for is answers i may have someone that can help. My buddy and I are local as well. (blue springs, MO) He is a gunsmith with tons of experience(Marine Corps & civilian) and is also a trained ballistician. he has experience with overpressured ammo. send me a message if your still looking for answers

Interesting first post

Telescoping round?

Sounds like it.  The Sierra 63 gr SP also doesn't have a cannelure to crimp into.  If SSA didn't use a projectile deforming crimp to secure the projo, then I can easily see a pushback during firing.

Thanks for everyone looking into this.....
I just found so VITAL INFORMATION while cleaning my hunting room this weekend.  I actually was so embarrassed that I didn't identify this in December that I am beside myself.  I went ahead and made a video to better explain what I found and how this is extremely important to identify with these specific rounds.
I literally just made this video this morning, if there is anything I am missing in the video please let me know.  I plan on sharing this with Nosler/SSA on Monday to assist them with their investigation and informational search.
Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqwtn0D2zE4

Sorry about your rifle. Glad you weren't hurt. Who's Silver State Armory Reputable?

When I talk to the rep he explained that Silver State Armory is a subsidiary of Nosler.

I have been told that their engineers are now looking into the possibility of a telescoping round.  

Has anyone ever had an issue with ammunition, where you contacted the manufacturer and they reimbursed you for the damages?

The ammo manufacturer is not going to rollover and accept responsibility for what happened to you, OP. If that was their ammo and they failed to crimp those rounds, you might win a small claims court case against them for some of the damages to your rifle. I think a judge or jury might also find you partially responsible for failing to inspect your rounds - or contributing to the over-pressure situation.

My advice is to thank God that no one suffered any serious injuries, get your rifle repaired, and get on with life. There's no upside for you in this situation. Your time is something that once spent, can never be recovered.

Unfortunately Art Kalwas sold SSA to Nosler last year. Huge loss for us 6.8 shooters. SSA had seriously good premium ammo and worked with us, the shooters, to develop new loads that we wanted.

Art would have taken care of you if he had any inkling that his ammo was at fault, even if there was doubt. That's just the kind of guy he was. I had a very similar issue with their 90gr TNT. Turns out it was the magazine's fault, but it was hitting low and telescoping and blowing primers. They had a dozen 6.8 offerings and I'd bought a couple boxes of each. That was the only one, and even all the tac loads worked great, no pressure.

He knew it was a mag issue ( old C Products ), but also the TNT wasn't crimped. I had about 200 rounds of it left and had shot nearly 100 with intermittent issues, maybe 5 towards the end were the problem ones. He sent me a shipping label for all of what I had, and had me send in a few problem empties.

In return he sent me out 300 new rounds of very expensive 110TTSX Tactical Loads, about $12 / 20 more at that time than the TNTs. He was that kind of guy.

Now you're dealing with a corporation instead of a man with a name to keep clean.

always had good luck with ssa,, haven't bought any since nosler bought them though

Run those 5 rounds into a case gauge and see if they are within spec.

I'm not sure, but from your video, my untrained eye says they may have been over crimped which leads to a bulge in the shoulder.

A bulged shoulder will cause your round to not go all the way into the chamber which may cause your rifle to fire out of battery.

Silver State Armory has enjoyed a pretty good reputation.

However, for a ammunition manufacturer to state any of the following.....



..... is just absurd.

Unfortunately, since you sent the remaining box of ammunition back to them, you're pretty much at the mercy of their say-so that their rounds were peachy keen.  I think you're screwed.

It's not the same people as the old SSA. It's Nosler's baby now. He's talking to Nosler.

Yeah, I pretty much figure that I am screwed....(not that I expected special service)
On a good note, Rock River Arms is heavily discounting the parts to rebuild my rifle, so I can say that they are great to work with and communicate with.  They paid to have my rifle sent to them as well.  

If anything this brings attention to shooters to check your rounds before firing....shit can still happen

Not trying to say anything other than set back can happen.

I have seen bullets set back when they hang up on loading in ARs many times. If fact the case normally has dents in them like the ones you show when they have hung up when feeding. The large dent one side of the one round where the carrier hit it also appears to also have two small dents on the other side. The second round with the set back bullet has the dent in the same area as a case get sometimes when they hang up loading.

This is crucial.  Is there absolute proof that all three previous rounds' bullets left the barrel?

GHPorter, yes the previous bullets did leave the barrel.  There was three holes in the paper, and Rock River also examined the lower/upper/barrel and they reported no indication of an obstruction or barrel fatigue.

Thanks for coming forward with this info.  Good to know!  Sorry about your gun.

Ditto.  I don't see a simple, easy explanation for the kaboom.  I hope someone involved in the process will give you one.

Well after 4 and a half months and my continued weekly phone calls & emails to the Customer Service guy, Nosler finally contacted me today.  They explained that my case went all the way up to Bob Nosler's desk.
The Nosler Rep also read me their report that explains that Noslers ammunition had no participation of the "over-pressure" scenario.  It is funny because I asked them to send me that report and they said that they can't?  I stated that well if this report is associated with my case why wouldn't the customer be able to have the official Nosler investigative report, they said they will get back to me.

They have decided to split the cost with me to repair my gun.  Check is in the mail......

I will let you know if it gets to me.

So first they say It wasnt our fault and second they are willing to pay half your cost fora new gun?  Sounds like they know it was their ammo that did it.

Yep....Well half of the cost to make repairs...NOT a new gun

Thanks for posting this thread.  Failure reports like this are always useful.

I don't have much to add, other than I'm surprised set-back caused enough pressure elevation to outright blow up the gun.  There are a lot of handloads out there, many of which aren't crimped right, it just seems like if that would do it - you'd hear about it a lot more.

The response from Nosler sounds like a "it's not our fault but we want you to still think nice things about us" response.  While better than nothing, it doesn't seem to help establish why the event occurred, nor how you could prevent another occurrence.

Sry about the gun, glad you're okay.

It looks like every other AR kaboom I've ever seen. It's impossible to say from photos, but I can't imagine a situation where it could have been the gun's fault, at least not one that makes sense. I would be willing to bet money that it was due to over pressure. Assuming that the barrel is clear of obstructions, this would pretty much put the blame on the ammo.

A squib would be unlikely, as it should not have cycled the bolt to chamber the next round. And I'm assuming that the bore has already been checked by this time. My bet would be that the bullet got pushed back into the case while being chambered. Either way, ammo's fault.

BTW, 5.56/.223 ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY DOES HAVE ENOUGH JUICE TO BLOW UP ANY AR. The ammo manufacturer is badly misinformed on this issue.

Thanks for posting this. This makes me want to stick with my standard redding dies that crimp the bullet instead of buying new bushing dies.

Useful post.  I commend the OP's tenacity & persistence.  Had he just let this go, Nosler would've pulled a sergeant schultz and left him twisting in the wind.  
And yes, it was more'n likely the ammo, have seen it happen before.

The SSA representative explained a couple different points to me:
1. He states there is not enough pressure that can be created from a 5.56 round to blow-up a gun
2. He states that there is no way that they could have used the wrong powder (pistol/revolver)
3. He stated that it could not have been a telescoping round, as the case powder density is such that there is no available remaining space for a bullet to be pushed back into the case. In addition unlike home hand loading, production loads undergo push tests where force is applied to assure that the bullet cannot be pushed back in the case without the use of excessive force.


Whether or not their ammo was at fault this sounds ridiculous and is enough for me to not trust them.

SSA doesn't impress me. Was about to buy a 100-pack of their .308 brass at Sportsman's Warehouse yesterday. Looking through the bag, I could see misformed/damaged/split case necks. Took it up to the counter and let them see it. Not what I want when buying unfired brass, especially at $65/100. Their QC evidently sux.

I'd agree with them on #3 and probably #2.  But #1 is not correct, either in your situation or any other situation.  I've seen too many pictures of different guns blown up because something was wrong, and that one round did indeed blow up the gun.

As I understand it, after Nosler bought SSA, they haven't been at all the same company...  That's sad.

Half the cost to repair that gun would be cheaper to buy a new gun than to fix a K/B one.

I hope they know this.

I was range testing some 20 rd. CP mags and had repeated issues where the bullet was pushed into the case.  The bullets were catching on the front of the mag and being pushed back into the cases. Several witnesses were present.  And the ahole at CP said when I returned the mags that they were all OK. My rifle then ran every other brand mag I had available for 750 rounds without cleaning and ZERO malfunctions.  Everytime I read about another blown up AR I have to wonder if a similar defect was causing the overpressure damage.

Paladin

I think most of us are comfortable with the idea that some barrels "like" some loads and "don't like" other loads.  I believe that there is a complex relationship between bolt, barrel extension and magazines, and that some magazines just don't work in some guns, or at least not properly.  If there were "OLD" CProducts magazines, there could be small variations in how the front of the mag was finished that made some rounds catch; they had issues with QC with many of their products toward the end.  I've had a few issues with old GI magazines in a couple different guns - those mags worked OK in other rifles but not in one specific rifle, or only worked in one rifle.  I know this was because of the way the front edge and front of the feed lips had been treated; battered, dropped, scraped, etc. (which is why I was able to get these mags basically for free).  At the time, they were better than nothing.  And I have one English-made steel AR magazine that only works with certain bullets, like 55gr soft points, but doesn't work with 55gr FMJs or 62gr 855 or FMJs.  It's gotta be due to some specific, tiny thing where the bolt, barrel extension and magazine interact.

Just for the sake of completeness, the new "CProducts Defense" magazines are made by a completely different company, using robotic processes throughout, allowing for much more consistent production and overall much better magazines.  The new company bought much of the old company's intellectual property (ASC, made up of old CPro employees, bought tooling and some IP as well, which is why their magazines look like CProducts mags - they too are doing a much better job than the old company did).

For Your Information
Just Received the check from Nosler....They paid $280 of $560 total repair bill.  RRA knocked off some retail cost as well.
Well didn't lose any digits or flesh, both manufactures pitched in...who the hell knows, sometimes shit just goes wrong.

What is the condition of the Bore?  Is there anything in it?  I say this because this looks like exactly what happened to an M4 of ours in Iraq when the Soldier fired a round and there was sand and or debris lodged around the bullet.  At the time i think i googled sand in barrel m16 and found some pics that were all similar.  I don't think that bullet set back could do this, remember that there is plenty of powder in that case to keep the bullet mostly in place.  Even if the bullet was set back a little it would not raise pressure to this extent.  Were you shooting prone when this was happening?  Did you take a break from 3rd to 4th round etc?  Glad you were not hurt.

[wups, wrong thread]