subject to the armor piercing restrictions in the law?

Thanks

I figure it has to do with materials its made out of?

I am guessing the exposed steel penetration

http://usarmorment.com/pdf/M855A1.pdf this is a pretty good start.

Nevermind....not tech

Wasn't sure if it was the steel or the copper.r

Overscoped,

thanks for the link

looking at it now

I think I see it now.

Since the round is totally copper and steel, it meets the definition.

is there a difference between Beryllium Copper (mentioned in the armor piercing reg) and the copper used in the M855A1?

To my knowledge it hasn't formally been classified as AP by the alphabet boys. There is speculation it would/will be.

Currently ATK seems to have no desire to sell the stuff. Either because it's assumed pending AP classification or because of some roadblock in their contract dealing with the load.

It's loaded hot with an exposed steel meplat. Two things no AR owner should want any part of. It's a bit better performer then m855 but that sets it's benchmark pretty low still. We as civillians have available choices that far out perform m855a1.

I know it's pretty easy to be all "aww, geee that's so wiz bang cause the military uses it and so it must be like mini Patriot missiles in every round" but that thinking is foolish. The mil has a completely differnt set of needs then a civilian. M855 and A1 meet that need well for them.  

If your just asking for shits and giggles and not because you want it then just ignore me.

There is better ammo available commercially and within DOD.  

I think the Marines were smart to pass on this ammo.

I wonder if the steel tip is causing any premature wear on the feedramps or chamber

No lead and is made entirely of copper and steel which in theory makes it considered a AP round. However, manufacturers are still filling military contracts so it could be awhile before they even consider selling it to the general public, at which time they would need to run it by the ATF for approval.

Until that day comes i would just pick up some mil spec barrier blind ammo, it will do basically the same thing.

I am not positive... but I believe it is because its bullet exceeds the percent of steel used in it by design. Lame example ... 45% Steel "tip", 50% base , 5% Jacket.

The current M855 is under that percent threshold..... Lame guesstimation.... 25% steel tip, 65% lead core, 10% jacket....

Next it is loaded , manufactured ammo, that is for sale, ( To anyone ) ( the term manufactured is key to that classification ) that falls under the ATF definition of AP ammo.. .... Remember there was some pulled  "M855A1" bullets for sale many moons ago.

Manufactured means produced for sale.... when we load AP bullets into 30.06 , for our own consumption, those are not legally for sale, nor can you sell those to anyone... because then you are manufacturing AP ammo. ( Also WW II AP, etc  ammo is grandfathered... )

Remember the Barnes Solids that were "banned" by the ATF ? Those are over the percent of alloys  ( 100% a type of alloy ) used in the construction... so it was only a matter of time before the ATF cracked down on the ones that could be used in "handguns".

The Chinese steel cored 7.62x39 ammo also was banned for the same reason.... not because they were truly AP, but because of the percent of steel used in the construction of the bullet.... same thing as the 5.45x39 7N6... it is the amount of steel used in the construction and the fact that it is manufactured and sold to the public..... ( all politics aside.. they were easy , "Legal" ways to cut off cheap ammo, and make "defacto" gun bans... )

AGAIN, I could be completely wrong .... but that is how I read it.

What do the Marines use then?

Do they all use OTM rounds?

The Marine Corps is waiting on an improved version of the M855A1, the current version has fouling and wear issues

Thank you very much for the reply

Nailed it!
The old M855 and the .30Cal M2AP are specially exempt from the BATFE list of banned AP. (I'm told its because of the DCMP?)  If it wasn't, it would be considered AP by the percentage of steel.    

Early experimental M855A1 on left with bismuth/ tin and copper M855A1 on the Right (Notice the tip has been anodized)

Does the BATFE have the authority to exempt rounds from the AP definition?

i'm not sure that either (i) or (ii) apply to the M855A1



the core is 2 pieces (1 part steel and the other copper).  as far as i can tell, the copper used is not beryllium copper.  therefore, the core is not entirely made up of any of the indicated metals



for (ii), the round is not fully jacketed, nor designed and intended for use in a handgun, nor does it seem that the jacket makes up more than 25% off the weight of the round



 

It was mainly the first definition I was concerned about.

M855 is also a two piece core is it not?

Lead and steel?

yes







 

I'm betting none has come out due to current military orders more than anything. Think about it; how long did it take M855 to hit the commercial market after it began to be issued?

BS... the only thing bad is improved wear.

It does what its designed to do better then nearly all military ammo

Yeah, just bc it cuts barrel and bolt life in half, runs near proof load pressure, and has worse intermediate barrier performance than FBI duty loads....its awesome

You can't fix a mediocre bullet design by driving it at higher velocity.  The penalties in loss of component life, fouling, and temp sensitivity are not worth it.

The only people I've seen bitcbing about it have been internet experts. Everyone I've talked to in say 2/75 and even 160th who have used it seem to like it because of how consistently it would put people in the ground quickly.

I've done gel tests on it, and it is better then nearly every ammo I have tested, only issue is the copper slug overpenetrates.

What have you done with this ammo that backs your claims?

Yep lots of people with no clue bad mouthing it, especialy because it has M855 in the name.... most are the same who will tell you to load your mags with M193... which is horribly inconsistent.

I killed some seriously dangerous afghan rocks with it last week...and shot it into pretty much every type of intermediate barrier I could find with paper and various catch features (sand bags, cases of water) behind to see how it performed.  Field expedient disposal of ammo in preperation for retrograde with some training value mixed in.  Non scientific...but everything I have seen first hand matches what Dr Roberts and others have written about this ammo.    Unimpressive...  

This ammo program is a disaster.  How many versions of this round have there been?  How many years have they been working on it and even now, it is not ready for prime time.  How much money has been spent to develop this ammo with a "green" requirement when the vast majority of ranges have no such requirement and there is zero peer reviewed data indicating regular M855 posed any serious health hazard from lead.  Lead is not plutonium.  

How long did it take to come up with MK 318 or for the FBI version that is bonded?  

I dont give two shits how much it costs, or what it took to make it. The ammo performs better then most. FACT

So, they spent a mountain of money to build ammo that destroys guns and is no better than MK 318, but is more expensive...and meets a virtually non existant "green" requirement.  

It is better than green tip...but that is like winning at the special olympics...even the winners are retarded.  


It is a program that became too big to fail and produced a polished turd.  For a fraction of the money, DOD could have gotten MK 318 or even one of the more exotic 5.56 rounds.  Current FBI duty load is one of the most advanced designs on the market and is likely compatible with the laws of land warfare as it is functionally MK 318 in a bonded version.

The USMC got this one right.  

The ammo is a turd from the word go...yeah, it kills bad guys...and barrels...and bolts...and budgets.  

It does this when there was ammo with a DODIC in the system that cost less and performes equal to or better...but it wasn't "invented here" by the guys on this project, so it couldn't be the answer.  

It is similar to the Eagle Plate Carrier that the USMC and SOCOM use...but the Army had to design a totally new one and we end up the the abortion from KDH that has issues galore but was "invented here"...

I'm all for the best ammo...but it has to work all around and I don't think this is the answer.

M855A1 wasn't even invented by the Army. It's stolen intellectual property.

My problem with everyone running their mouths saying its shit ammo, based on how it was developed and how much it cost is annoying. Because it is good ammo, but it cost a lot because.. federal government. Now that we have it, it should be used as it is really good performing ammo.

Cost more than 855, but pretty comparable in price to Mk318