Just picked up a Five Seven. I was thinking of going that way for CCW. Is there a decent ammo out there for this? Is the American Eagle or the ss198 any good for it?

I'd go with SS198, it's manufactured by FN in Belgium.

Way too many issues with AE, and occasional issues with SS197 (both manufactured by Fiocchi  in Ozark, MO)

No personal experience with the 5.7, but IIRC, Doc GKR didnt have impressive data on it.

The good dentist is the last guy I would ask about 5.7, as he has a sizeable bias against it.


Op, if possible SS195, then SS197/8 and AE last.

Out  of a PS90, the s4m round can hit 3300fps using a moly coated bullet that is the same as the ss198, which would only be at 2600.

The  ss195 and ss198 both use the same bullet. With the exception of perhaps ONE lot, the ss198 typically has 100fps on the ss195. (Of course the s4m out of a FiveseveN is about as fast as the ss198 out of a ps90)

Perhaps,  but he does at keast show data on which he bases his bias.  More reproducible results than a bunch of anecdotes.

Its a classic "speed or mass" type of round.

The ballistic gel results that he quotes were from the ss90 round, which hasn't been made in ~20 years. It was a very light polymer core prototype round. Doc gkr has never done (or publicly shared the results) of any of the current production factory rounds or much hotter 3rd party rounds. I'd be like saying the 40 was terrible based on testing ammo that hasn't been made in two decades.

The drug cartels who are in the business of killing people seem to prefer the 5.7 over any other handgun caliber.

1.  Where are you getting your data, defining what the cartels like?  Seriously?  Sounds more like gun shop rhetotic bro.  

2.  Drug cartels.....known tier one operators.  LMAO

Pat Rogers talks a lot against rounds like the 5.7 and 4.6.  His opinion, is someting like they are very controllable, but you have to hose whatever down with them.  I think that he probably has shot a few of them.

They also like 7" ARs. It's all about machismo.

http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/11/1198416_fw-ct-texas-arming-mexican-drug-cartels-note-dallas-focal.html

http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Study-finds-Mexican-gangs-prefer-high-powered-1683978.php

http://damspleet.com/post/15562751484/belgian-weapons-and-the-mexican-drug-cartels

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/02/04/mexican-drug-cartels-armed-to-hilt-threatening-national-security/

http://www.autentico.org/oa09915.php

If you need more links to this issue, I can supply several dozen more including some out of Mexico.

Like I said, mexican idiots are not tier one operators, and further more don't know shit.  

As for your links:  1. is wiki...no thanks.  2.  Doesn't say shit about them.  3.  Shows 4 or 5 guns out of a few hundred...huge data there.  4 and 5 talk of them, but seriously man.  They also talk of several other guns used.  

You act as if they are just the most sought after gun/caliber of choice.  One of the articles even talks about "they like them because they go thru doors and windows".  Really, tell me more please of how they are such great penetrators.  I am more than certain anything a 5.7 can do, a .5.56 M193 will do better.  

I am a whole lot closer to the border than Mo. and I actually do have an idea of what is going on here.

1. It's wikiLEAKS not Wikipedia
2. The Hearst survey of court cases found these weapons among the top 10:

The Belgian-made FN Herstal Five-SeveN: Some versions of this pistol hold 10, others have a 20-round capacity. It fires 5.7X28mm cartridges, referred to as mata policias (cop killers) in Mexico because they can penetrate bulletproof vests.


I agree, they aren't  rocket scientists but they do know what works.

As to my not knowing what is going on at the border, a friend of mine just retired from the DEA. He was stationed in Texas for most of his career. He stated that the 5.7 Pistol was highly sought after.

BTW, I know of no other handgun that will go through a Level III vest. The 5.7 will.

One last comment, do you think the U.S. Secret Service would choice an ineffective round?

This is a good read on the 5.7x28 round in actual use LINK

Sigh...some people don't let facts get in the way of opinions. I never ever thought the 5.7 round could be worth a damn. I was wrong, and I'm open enough to change my mind. The round is effective. Not like a rifle round but produces wounds similar to 9mm +p+ ammo.

The 5.7mm round is very polarizing with those who liking it often acting as if it were a bolt of lightning and those who don't (loudly and erroneously/ignorantly) claiming it has the same ballistics as the 22wmr. Neither camp is correct. Occasionally in life we come across situations/facts that either require us to challenge what we believed before or stick our heads in the sand. Prior to fort hood, I would not have believed the 5.7 round out of a 5 inch barrel was worth a damn. I was wrong. The round was horribly effective at ft. H. If you haven't, check out the list of fatalities and injuries at the wikipedia page.

What jumps out is that the fatalities were largely torso shots. These were NOT all head shots.. Those who lived by and large received wounds to the extremities. (Even some of those with extremity wounds received devastating injuries such as a shattered femur). An open, unbiased individual can look at this and realize if the shooter puts the ammo where it should be, the round is effective. These were NOT results that would have been duplicated by a 22. The VA tech shooting resulted in many fatalities from head shots from a 9mm. Looking at the ft H results, it is clear from the injuries and who lived/died that the results would NOT have been "far worse" if the shooter had used another caliber such as a 9mm. Those who lived were typically injured in the extremities...this wouldn't have been changed by a 9mm or 45.

Here are comments from a Police officer from Houston who HAS studied autopsies post 5.7 shootings (ss190 round). Note the mention of the wounds being comparable but deeper than,9mm +p+ https://web.archive.org/web/20040628013602/http://www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm

I can't find the actual news article, but I have seen it, that reports that upon autopsy after the first shooting with the ss190 round by Houston SWAT, it was discovered that the round tumbled and split the heart. If you still don't believe anything you can't personally verify, call the author of the link above.

Finally, why would the secret service use the round if it was not effective? If the round sucked and was only good for penetrating armor, the the secret service would NOT use it. Instead one of the many AP 9mm rounds or equivalent would be used. The fact of the matter is the round is effective. Effective like a low recoiling, super high capacity, armor piercing round with wounds similar to 9mm +p+...not a 5.56.

If all of this is still not enough for you to acknowledge the round has been successful, then you may be letting preconceptions color your ability to accept something new and may never change your mind.

This has been about factory ammo. It's possible to get non FN loaded ammo that can send a 40 gr bullet out of a carbine at 2700 fps or 3340 fps for a 28gr round. This ammo is similarly impressive from a fiveseven pistol.

Is the s4m available? I haven't found it. Thank you all for the info.

Elite Ammunition is the manufacturer of the S4M, they are almost constantly sold out due to demand. Just check their web site regularly.

Another good choice is their T-6 round, VERY NASTY!

7.62 Tok will punch IIIa.

Gunbroker sometimes has some.

 

So what's the difference between 195 and 198? I've got both on order.

I've also got a box of ProtecTOR one and two on the way from Elite.

Ss198 is usually 100fps faster and is restricted by FN, not by law, to law enforcement sales. Same projectile just with a colored tip.

He also refused to test any elite ammo, and actual REAL LIFE results (it's not anecdotal) trump "test" results. If actual useage differs in comparison to the hypothesis, then that real data isn't the flawed data.

I don't think he ever refused to test any ammo, just no one ever wanted to front the ammo for him to test.

It does in fact remain anecdotal until a sufficiently large body of "real life" results is complied to rule out selection bias.

And with good cause!

BTW there is a handgun and ammo forum

Hey arent you the same guy exhorting the use of 40gr varmint bullets as a self defense load from the AR from this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/650968_Hornady_40_gr_V_Max_Used_In_An_Animal_Defense_Shooting___Here_Are_The_Results____.html&page=3

And now you are here telling us how deadly the 5.7 round is

I guess the fanboys are really the loudest.

In case you guys haven't seen it yet, Doc Roberts current tag line, signature, or whatever its called at the bottom of his posts is:

"Just a dentist"

LOL

Considering how many people have been killed south of the border by this round in handguns, I think the verdict is in.

And, AGAIN. The U.S. Secret Service trusts it for protecting the POTUS.

Completely unnecessary. How old are you? I asked for opinions of this round, not looking to hear children argue.

The Secret Service adopted the P90 subgun, not the 5.7 pistol.  It was adopted because of the ergos for certain carry operations, ie more compact than an AR sbr or the previous Uzi when worn under a coat.  It was never intended to be THE general purpose weapon. A number of forum posts from a variety of dates 2009 up till at least 2013 state that the P90 has been or is being phased out for that role, the MP7 was being tested, and the bulk of the SS use 357sig Sigs for a handgun and KAC 11.5" SBRs as their go to compact rifle.

The 5.7x28mm FNH round was designed for a subgun and sidearm to serve on the battlefield PDW role. Design paramounts were helmet and field individual armor penetration. Soft tissue performance was a secondary consideration/result. The cartridge has a narrow design purpose. For CCW, stick to proven 9mm/.40/.45 rounds and platforms. CCW personal defense requirement =/= PDW requirements. You are more likely to encounter intermediate barriers than soft armor in the business of defending yourself so choose accordingly.

The 5.7x28 has been around since the 60s in one form or another.

1963:  22 Spitfire: 30Carbine necked to 22cal
1971: 223 SCAMP Program aka 224x29
1991: FN 5.7x28
1990s: .224Boz

If it hasn't caught on in the past 51 years, that says plenty.

Phased out, strange that there are reports of that, as U.S.S.S. Is normally VERY tight lipped about anything they plan or do but being there are Forum posts it MUST be true

When I've been in training sessions with their agents, they've indicated they love the P90.



NONE of the listed rounds EXCEPT the 5.7x28 were ever much more than a wildcat round. The 5.7x28 is an adopted round by quite a few agencies and countries.

Here is a list from 2005 of U.S. Agencies using either the 5.7 pistol or the P90 PDW, I'm sure they would like to know from you that they made a bad decision...



US Agencies using the 5.7x28mm Weapons


P90

Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Daleville, AL PD
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SD
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD



Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Benton County, AR SO
Bentonville, AR PD
Birmingham, AL PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Duluth, GA PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Harahan, FL PD
Jennings County, IN SD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Richland County, SC SO
Slidell, LA PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD



P90 or Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Daleville, AL PD
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Hallsville, MO PD
Harahan, FL PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Jennings County, IN SD
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Slidell, LA PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
Yeadon Borough, PA PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD

Main Entry:  anecdotal evidence
Part of Speech:  n
Definition:  non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts
Example:  This chapter provides anecdotal evidence from personal interviews, public hearings, and surveys.
Etymology:  from the sense of anecdote 'unpublished narratives or details of history'

There is NO NUMBER of results that qualify data as "anecdotal", that is simply your opinion. A single shooting can provide actual scentific proof of a bullet's performance. Again, you could have a mountain of theroies regarding a bullet's performance, but actual shootings provide PROOF of performance - and by defenition aren't anecdotal. As a matter of fact, they provide (may not be available to the general public, but the data is there) the BEST information on bullet performance.

Sorry, I reached my opinion of the good " I'm just a dentist" by reading his posts. He simply suffers a clear bias, and much like a few posters here chooses to discount  the real shooting results as "flukes" or "numerical insignificant" which is illogical.

Here is your "just a dentist":

the SS190 round (now restricted by FN) was never designed to meet FBI penetration specs.  it was designed to meet NATO PDW requirements which were to penetrate Russian CRISAT body armor (which is a titanium/aramid combination) at 200m while still retaining at least 85 joules of energy, out of a P90 length barrel



later rounds have been specifically neutered by FN to avoid the possibility of them penetrating soft body armor after the whole 'cop killer bullet' fiasco.  this has hurt their penetration ability

You would be surprised at the penetration of the 5.7x28 rounds available for civilian purchase.

A member here (Buffman_LT1) has performed extensive testing on both Level II and Level IIIA body armor and has had success in penetrating both levels.

I think the good dentist (which is why I say good) is a knowledgeable man, who had a passionate hobby he has segued into a semi-career. I simply do not think that he is objective about this caliber (and clearly neither are you), and his own words provided that view. We clearly disagree, and are never going to agree. I bow out, as any further discussion is only going to devolve into meaningless drivel.

Who is arguing that the 5.7 gets insufficient penetration? If I wanted small caliber penetration I could easily use a .22 mag and get 22+ inches of penetration. Except with any decent service caliber JHP I can get adequate penetration AND several times more tissue crushed than any 5.7 round.

Funny how 5.7 supporters are trying to use mexican cartels as a valid source of its effectiveness. Hey, I heard the Israeli mossad use .22lr to assassinate terrorists. Does that make it a good man stopper?

You need a course in basic science.  One observation is not statistically significant; it is one point of data only.  There are specific guidelines for identifying populations, sample sizes, and methods for obtaining samples and then looking for statistical significance.  This is one of the first things taught in any lab class for freshman and is used in every single field.  This is not my opinion or anyone elses, it is the basis of all scientific study.  It determines the chance that a variable is the cause of change and not random chance.

One event is not proof of anything.  How about a simple example:

My roommate ate doritos while drinking koolaide and promptly shit his pants.  True story.  According to your logic, this one event now gives us scientific proof that combining doritos and koolaide causes pants shitting.  Sounds like air tight reasoning to me.

Or is it one piece of anecdotal evidence, one data point, that would have to be combined with a large group of other people, a control group, a group eating only chips, a group drinking only koolaide, and another group doing both.  Data is obtained and run through t-tests or others and significance is established.

You could take a detailed look at all 5.7 shootings as well as other calibers, pick a variable to test for, follow protocols to randomly select your sample from this population of shootings, analyze your data, apply significance tests, and finally determine whether or not your hypothesis is accepted or rejected.

I listed all those rounds as they were all PDW concepts in there day an age.  A 5.7 like family of cartridges has existed at least from the 1960s forwards if not longer, and those were only from the US and don't include any out of Europe or Russia.  The SCAMP(5.7x29) program was a PDW program designed to replace the 1911 and made it no where in 1974.  This is not a new concept nor the next big thing.  If it has not found wide spread support in 50+ years nor proven itself and been widely adopted in that time, something is wrong somewhere.  Don't know what is wrong but something is.

Your list contains 60 agencies as of 2005 that had attempted to use one or the other in some capacity.  The question remains how many have continued to use it and in what capacity.  The Secret Service adpoted it for its profile not for its amazing terminal performance.  One agency adpoted the 4.6 for its K9 teams because the AR was found to difficult to handle while controling the dog, again it came down to ergos.  As a point of reference, there were 17.985 state or local LE agencies in 2012 + Federal so lets round it to 18000.  Even with all the Homeland Security spending on weapons and Mraps and god knows what else, only 3 per 1000 agencies had tried a 5.7 platform.  Developed in the 80s and fielded in the 90s and we are only at 0.3%.

That list was "back doored" out of FN USA, since then the employee no longer works there. All FN USA has ever stated was how many U.S. Agencies use the weapon. It's currently at over 200.

That doesn't take into account the numerous countries that field the weapon system.

Being that you are in the camp of "a .50 BMG isn't enough", so be it.

I've carried the 5.7 handgun as my Duty sidearm and never thought I was under gunned. You either love or hate em'

The ONLY concern I had was carrying a sidearm that could penetrate my Point Blank Level IIIA vest.

 

The SS198LF is my round of choice since I've experienced issues with SS197 having light loads, Fiocchi needs to get their act together.

Actually it can. The .22 WMR penetrated the entire 20" block from a pistol barrel.