Site Notices
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
Author
Message
proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 54
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 8/2/2012 2:35:10 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
In 5.56 bullets. I have some 75gr Hornady BTHP. I know that in a handgun bullet, HP is for expansion. From what I've read here on this site, 5.56 bullets are designed to tumble and fragment, not expand. So why the hollow point? I mean, really, the hollow point is so small, it can barely accommodate the tip of a needle. So what is the benefit? I've noticed all the high-end "match" bullets have them.
Hawcer
Offline
Posts: 589
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 2:46:20 PM

It is the result of a manufacturing process for match bullets.The 75gr bthp is Not really intended for anything other than target shooting.
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
NRA
Offline
Posts: 13861
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 2:53:08 PM
Some hollow point bullets are to enhance accuracy. From what I understand they create air disruption ahead of the bullet that helps bullet flight.
He said "Yes you did" I said "No I didn't" she said "Yes you did" then I said "Nuh uh" they said "Uh huh" then I said, If it is gonna be that kind of party I'm stickin my dick in the mashed potatoes.
Combat_Jack
Green Suited Salaryman
Military
Offline
Posts: 65052
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 2:59:48 PM
It's a remnant of how the jacket is drawn and shift weight to the back of the bullet.
30 miles a week, upper body, dieting and reading incessantly sucks. Nobody is going to pay to do that shit. -sylvan
Eric802
It's not the years, it's the miles...
Offline
Posts: 17538
Feedback: 100% (15)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 3:10:54 PM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It's a remnant of how the jacket is drawn and shift weight to the back of the bullet.


This, when you're talking about match HPs like the Hornady 75s. It's a byproduct of the manufacturing process. In other HPs, like the Barnes TSX, it's designed that way to expand. And they do expand extremely well.
I have to return some videos.
Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
Military
Online
Posts: 19279
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 3:30:57 PM

Originally Posted By proimion:
In 5.56 bullets.
To expand rapidly.




I have some 75gr Hornady BTHP. I know that in a handgun bullet, HP is for expansion. From what I've read here on this site, 5.56 bullets are designed to tumble and fragment, not expand.
Depends on the bullet. Military 5.56 FMJ was never designed to tumble and fragment, it was a by product of a short, ass heavy bullet. There are plenty of 5.56/ .223 bullets like HP's and soft points designed to expand. The bullets you're talking about are designed to be long and accurate.


So why the hollow point? I mean, really, the hollow point is so small, it can barely accommodate the tip of a needle.
Because you are confusing an open tip match bullet, with a traditional hollow point. OTM's are a result of the manufacturing process, and are NOT "hollow points" that's why our troop can use them over seas and not violate our self imposed hollow point ban. Of course, OTM have been known as hollow point boat tails FOREVER but really, they don't share many design features with regular HP's, and calling them OTM's is more of a military marketing PC thing.

So what is the benefit? I've noticed all the high-end "match" bullets have them.
Due to the way the bullets are jacketed, from rear to front, instead of front to rear, it gives a more uniform base.





So here is a picture of an "OTM" Notice that the jacket is pretty uniform in thickness from the base ot the tip. The actual "hollow" is pretty flat, all that's for is to give the bullet more length. The opening of the tip itself as you've noticed is very small.




That being said, they can fragment like CRAZY from what I've been looking at.


Anyways, here's a pic of some actual designed for expansion HP's, big open noses, and deep cavities to aid expansion. Other styles include thinner jackets at the front to aid in everything opening up.






* Denotes Sarcasm, and or tongue in cheek humor. Do not take too seriously. Misunderstanding the use of sarcasm is a leading cause of "internet tough guy syndrome". Other side effects include; confused replies, butt hurt feelings, and anal
14point5
Military
Offline
Posts: 1423
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 3:44:01 PM

Originally Posted By P08:
From what I understand they create air disruption ahead of the bullet that helps bullet flight.
Not sure if serious.

citrusgalil
Offline
Posts: 38
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 4:56:45 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 4:57:07 PM by citrusgalil]

good post nicely explained
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
NRA
Offline
Posts: 13867
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 5:24:37 PM
He said "Yes you did" I said "No I didn't" she said "Yes you did" then I said "Nuh uh" they said "Uh huh" then I said, If it is gonna be that kind of party I'm stickin my dick in the mashed potatoes.
GHPorter
Crufflers Rule!
Military
Offline
Posts: 11006
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 5:34:26 PM
The spitzer bullet was designed for higher aerodynamic efficiency. The design makes the bullets travel farther with the same propellant charge, or as far with less. When they were invented in the late 19th century, they were stunning-the revolutionized cartridge design very quickly. It was also found that there was a side effect of their design: they tumble on impact. The tumbling is dependent on bullet weight and velocity, so a 150gr M2 Ball bullet doesn't tumble quite as dramatically as a 62gr M855 bullet at similar ranges, but it still tumbles.

Target and high-precision bullets with an "open tip" are made that way to produce a very consistent BASE, which assists in increasing accuracy immensely. This is because with a consistent base, the gasses leave the barrel behind the bullet the same in all directions. With a less consistent base shape (cough...Winchester bulk 55gr bullets...cough, cough), there can be a variety of different places on the base that muzzle gasses could be withheld or allowed out differently from other places, which is effectively a gas jet that deflects the bullet. Maybe not much, but maybe a lot, and that causes those inconsistent base bullets to be "broad side of a barn" accurate.

The open tip is, as noted earlier, a side effect of the bullet's construction. The jacket is formed as a cup closed at the base, and the core is then placed in it and the jacket is formed down onto the core. This means that there will be a small opening left at the tip, which both a) has no negative effect on aerodynamics and b) absolutely does not cause, enhance, lead to, or allow bullet expansion. Some "hollow point" rifle bullets ARE built to expand, but they are made with different tip shapes and substantially larger openings, along with (most likely) thinner jackets that facilitate this expansion.
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Dannofree
Offline
Posts: 262
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 6:24:24 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 6:29:13 PM by Dannofree]
Originally Posted By P08:
Super serial! http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-520985.html


When using your Internet bs detector, make sure the switch is on.

The hollow-point has very little to do with aerodynamics past that its much easier to have a hollow point then a pointed tip. Let's look at the "theories" your boys at the highroad came up with

"The hollow point creates a high pressure shockwave which breaks the air"

Huh? How does it create this magic shockwave? How does it do it any better then a flat meplat?

Creates a high pressure zone with in the hollow point? Yes. Shockwave that breaks the air? Um...no

This small pocket of high pressure air forms a sort of an "air" meplat that's centered pretty well. Centered better then a manufactured point could cheaply be.

Machine turned ultra high BC bullets have pointed bullets. They are expensive and are hard to mass produce.

The Sears–Haack body, the Lowest theoretical wave drag shape is pointed, no hollow point with a shockwave.

My dad uses a meplat trimmer for the long range stuff he loads up. It Lowers the bc slightly. Doesn't increase it. More consistent yes, but they hit lower then un-trimmed loads.

Bullets drawn from the bottom up, as OTMs are, have more uniform bases, when leaving the barrel crown, they stay more centered to the bore and hence more accurate.



proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 56
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 7:53:43 PM
Wow––I think I've learned something! Lemme see if I can summarize...

People assume a HP bullet is meant to expand, so with these bullets it would be better to refer to them as OTM to avoid confusion. They may or may not expand, but they weren't designed the same as a HP bullet.

A "closed base" bullet is filled with lead from the base up and is this more consistent at the base, the last part to exit my rifle. The result of this manufacturing process is the little .035" hole at the tip. An "open base" bullet is filled with lead from the top down and then closed up, resulting in slight differences from bullet to bullet and not as predictable accuracy.

The authors of the Ammo Oracle all recommend OTM as their choice for defense bullet. This is because of superior terminal ballistics at longer distances (I guess).
Dannofree
Offline
Posts: 266
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 9:27:17 PM
The hollow point may add something as to it's fragment characteristics. A stress point if you will.

Most of them act the same way even if not designed for it
Ironhandjohn
Offline
Posts: 738
Feedback: 100% (18)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/2/2012 9:59:11 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 9:59:25 PM by Ironhandjohn]
Originally Posted By Dannofree:
The hollow point may add something as to it's fragment characteristics. A stress point if you will.

Most of them act the same way even if not designed for it


Not always the case with .308 Sierra SMKs in 168gr. Sometimes they fragment/expand but others they just sail through like a FMJ.
All_Beef_Patty
Member
Offline
Posts: 709
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 4:03:25 AM
Related question I've always had –– if reverse-drawn jackets produce more accurate bullets, then why aren't all rifle bullets constructed this way?

Is it cost? I can't imagine it would cost more to have the jacket drawn one way vs. another.
Dannofree
Offline
Posts: 268
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 8:55:29 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 8:57:34 AM by Dannofree]
Originally Posted By All_Beef_Patty:
Related question I've always had –– if reverse-drawn jackets produce more accurate bullets, then why aren't all rifle bullets constructed this way?

Is it cost? I can't imagine it would cost more to have the jacket drawn one way vs. another.


Its more steps,

for standard top down bullets, the Gilding metal is drawn through multiple die steps into a cup with the final shape that of the bullet being made. A slug of lead cut from from a coiled lead wire is then pressed into a bullet cup, that is in a die with the final shape of the bullet. The gilding metal is then crimped over the end of the lead slug. Cheap and fast.

OTMs have all the same steps and more,

instead of pressing the lead slug in back to front, it's front to rear. The open ended front thus needs to be massaged into an ogive and meplat, this is done with more swaging steps. In manufacturing anything, more steps = more money.

The end of a conventional top down bullet is simply gilding metal crimped over the lead slug into a base, usually flat bottomed, thats a lot easier to do them forming an ogive and meplat.


proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 57
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 12:06:04 PM
^^^that explains what everyone meant when they say "manufacturing process". Thanks, dannofree!
proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 58
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 1:18:17 PM
Lots and lots of detail can be found here: http://www.corbins.com/fjfb-3.htm

I think this link does a good job of explaining that open-tip is just one of many choices for how to form the ogive of a bullet when you are building closed base bullet. It has nothing to do with aerodynamics or "air pockets" or what not. You simply have to make a choice at the end of the swaging process, and there are several choices. Now just imagine this on the scale of a manufacturer where they are making thousands per hour.

I also found this is a useful overview of the differences between casting, machining, and swaging bullets: http://www.corbins.com/intro.htm Also does a good job explaining how boat-tail and rebated boat-tail bullets work.

Before I asked in this thread, I had never even heard of swaging. Now i knows somethin'.
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
NRA
Offline
Posts: 13877
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 2:59:50 PM
This fmj bullet does not have any stuff in front of it.

What is that stuff in front of this bullet?


He said "Yes you did" I said "No I didn't" she said "Yes you did" then I said "Nuh uh" they said "Uh huh" then I said, If it is gonna be that kind of party I'm stickin my dick in the mashed potatoes.
proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 59
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 5:00:10 PM
Originally Posted By P08:
This fmj bullet does not have any stuff in front of it.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet2.jpg
What is that stuff in front of this bullet?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet-1.gif


I dunno. What do you think it is?
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
NRA
Offline
Posts: 13880
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 6:42:22 PM

Originally Posted By proimion:
Originally Posted By P08:
This fmj bullet does not have any stuff in front of it.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet2.jpg
What is that stuff in front of this bullet?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet-1.gif


I dunno. What do you think it is?
Well on the bottom one it appears to be a boundary layer of air caused by the tip of that particular bullet which is either a open tip or a flat tip. Some might even call it a air pocket.

He said "Yes you did" I said "No I didn't" she said "Yes you did" then I said "Nuh uh" they said "Uh huh" then I said, If it is gonna be that kind of party I'm stickin my dick in the mashed potatoes.
slappomatt
Elevator constructor
Offline
Posts: 5153
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 7:25:04 PM

Originally Posted By Hawcer:

It is the result of a manufacturing process for match bullets.The 75gr bthp is Not really intended for anything other than target shooting.

This.
callmenoshie: "saying that females have the potential to be "bat shit crazy" is like saying the sky has the potential to be blue."
GHPorter
Crufflers Rule!
Military
Offline
Posts: 11009
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 7:40:29 PM
Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By proimion:
Originally Posted By P08:
This fmj bullet does not have any stuff in front of it.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet2.jpg
What is that stuff in front of this bullet?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/DEG169/bullet-1.gif


I dunno. What do you think it is?
Well on the bottom one it appears to be a boundary layer of air caused by the tip of that particular bullet which is either a open tip or a flat tip. Some might even call it a air pocket.

More like a shock wave. It is slightly less evident in the first photo, but there is one there too. Anything traveling at supersonic speeds will have a shock wave attached to the leading edge, and in fact this increases the aerodynamics of the projectile - the space between the leading edge of the shock wave and the trailing edge includes lower pressure, so there is slightly less resistance to the projectile's travel.

"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 60
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 7:44:39 PM
Originally Posted By P08:

Well on the bottom one it appears to be a boundary layer of air caused by the tip of that particular bullet which is either a open tip or a flat tip. Some might even call it a air pocket.


I'm not trying to be argumentative––just trying to learn. Here's the thing: I can't find any bullet manufacturer or expert who will say that the OT is there to cause an air pocket or alter the boundary layer. If it does, and again, I can't find a named source other than forum posters, it doesn't help anything. In fact, it would lower the BC.

I've even found a die maker that sells a product for benchrest shooters to reduce the size of the OT "by half its diameter" so it will be more accurate: http://www.whiddengunworks.net/pointingdie.html

So maybe air pockets do exist forward of an OT bullet. If so, I'm trying to learn if such an air pocket is intentional. Everything I've seen thus far says that the OT is a result of the closed-end manufacturing process, and if they could get rid of the OT economically, they would. Of course, they could build the bullet top-down and not have an OT, but the resulting loss of accuracy from the inconsistent bases of the bullets is worse than having an OT. That's how I"m reading the various white papers out there, anyway.

I've also learned that within 200 meters or so, it doesn't matter the bullet design. At least not in a way the vast majority of shooters could discern without scientific equipment.
proimion
Member
Offline
Posts: 61
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 7:48:09 PM
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
More like a shock wave. It is slightly less evident in the first photo, but there is one there too. Anything traveling at supersonic speeds will have a shock wave attached to the leading edge, and in fact this increases the aerodynamics of the projectile - the space between the leading edge of the shock wave and the trailing edge includes lower pressure, so there is slightly less resistance to the projectile's travel.


Good way to put it. In the second photo, the projectile has a lower BC and thus more surface area = larger displacement = bigger wave. The first bullet has a higher BC and thus more efficient = less wave.

Kinda like a diver going into the water versus some guy doing a cannonball.
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
NRA
Offline
Posts: 13882
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/3/2012 9:20:26 PM

Originally Posted By proimion:
Originally Posted By P08:

Well on the bottom one it appears to be a boundary layer of air caused by the tip of that particular bullet which is either a open tip or a flat tip. Some might even call it a air pocket.


I'm not trying to be argumentative––just trying to learn. Here's the thing: I can't find any bullet manufacturer or expert who will say that the OT is there to cause an air pocket or alter the boundary layer. If it does, and again, I can't find a named source other than forum posters, it doesn't help anything. In fact, it would lower the BC.

I've even found a die maker that sells a product for benchrest shooters to reduce the size of the OT "by half its diameter" so it will be more accurate: http://www.whiddengunworks.net/pointingdie.html

So maybe air pockets do exist forward of an OT bullet. If so, I'm trying to learn if such an air pocket is intentional. Everything I've seen thus far says that the OT is a result of the closed-end manufacturing process, and if they could get rid of the OT economically, they would. Of course, they could build the bullet top-down and not have an OT, but the resulting loss of accuracy from the inconsistent bases of the bullets is worse than having an OT. That's how I"m reading the various white papers out there, anyway.

I've also learned that within 200 meters or so, it doesn't matter the bullet design. At least not in a way the vast majority of shooters could discern without scientific equipment.
Ok, sorry didn't mean to be a jerk with you. The other poster really pissed me off though. As another said above I don't know if the hollow point was intended to create the boundary layer or if it was just a "oh wow look what else it does" moment?

He said "Yes you did" I said "No I didn't" she said "Yes you did" then I said "Nuh uh" they said "Uh huh" then I said, If it is gonna be that kind of party I'm stickin my dick in the mashed potatoes.
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2