I'm sure you have, but I also know people that have killed deer with .22lr and also .223 HPBT .... doesn't mean its the best round for the job.
Or even the job the bullet is designed and intended for.

From Hornady's website ...


With the extensive selection of projectiles created for hunting, why use a projectile that wasn't, regardless of the caliber.

Sorry double tap.

At 12.50 a box would that be the HIGHLY ACCURATE Wolf stuff?

Man, I got to clean that up now, I just shot soda out of my nose reading that and busted up. I don't think I've read "quality" and "Wolf" in the same sentence. It's a decent plinker round company.

Have you considered the opportunity with the flexible 300 Blockout.
http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t515/gkj4094/BlackoutFamilyPlus.jpg
http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t515/gkj4094/FamilyPhotoDataTable.jpg

you have all your standard AR-15 infrastructure available for use without most of the other calibre unique support equipment investment.  You can purchase a partical upper and barrel and your done.  That will save a bundle.  Plus look at the diversity in rounds and performance available at resonable costs.  You can even load M993s if you can find them.  I use three uppers, 5.56x45, 7.62x35 and 458 SOCOM, if I go long range I use my M-24 300WM with either 126.6gr M993s or 208gr A-MAX.  Too old to haul around  338, 416 an 50 BMG.  A universal tool concept got us the F-111.  Ammo makes diversity functions common.  I use the 7.62x35 life is much simpler.

The 300 blackout is stupid and offers no real advantages over a 7.62x39, and is a lot more expensive and difficult to find.

The 300BLK is not even in this league.





We are getting away from the OP ... he is a fan of the 6.5 Grendel with its vast commercial loadings ( 3? ).


I'm not knocking the 6.5 Grendel as a cartridge, just the availability of commercial loadings.


I've been thinking about building one to shoot right along with my 6.8.





If your not a reloader, then you have a better selection in the 6.8 or 308 realm.





If you look at ballistics the two 6's are very similar.





If you are a reloader then that opens options for the G.





But lets be realistic ... have you shot anything at 1000 yards?





Once you get past 300 yards the shooters that can reliably hit targets consistently begins to drop drastically, 500 yards even more and 1000 yards is very small community.






 

This...

Saying that a 120 gr 6.8 has less energy than a 123 gr 6.5 inside 300 yds, is like apples and oranges.  If you can find the reports, there have been professional studies paid for by the U.S. military that consider all points (modern battlefield environments, no. of rounds per kill, logistics cost, cost of conversion, rounds per soldier, weight penalties, cost of ammo, etc,. etc.,) and on that matrix of attributes the 6.8 mm comes out on top.

OK 308 or 6ers.  308 why not, if you are a reloaded you can make up 2400fps 208gr A-MAX and get long range if you need it in 308.
East of the mississippi finding a place to shoot 1000 yards or better is a challenge.  That's why my effectivenes table stopped at 300 yards.
But the origianly topic submitter put that in the mix.  7.62x51 NATO has the complete arsenal logistics developments available to the customer for all support functions while the 6er's are limited.
300 BLK with commerical available ammo is releative in expensive.  Look at the cost data and source columns in the table.

In an 8-9" brl SBR configuration .300BLK has far better terminal ballistics than 4.6mm and 5.7 mm PDW's and is a great MP5 replacement. Likewise .300BLK has the potential for better terminal performance and intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm from SBR's. In supersonic form from 16" barrels .300BLK offers terminal ballistics on par with 7.62x39mm or lower weight .30-30's. It should be a very good LE caliber with the right ammunition. The key is getting appropriate .30 cal bullets produced that are designed to work at the lower .300BLK velocities instead of .308/.30-06/.300WM velocities. So far, the best barrier blind .300BLK load is the Barnes 110 gr TTSX.  

Let's not forget that most assault rifle cartridges, while capable of hitting out beyond 500 yds in static range conditions, are often chambered in carbines equipped with minimal magnification (1-4x) that makes it quite difficult to get PID, let alone successfully hit a concealed or moving target in dynamic combat conditions at 200-300+ yds.  Thus most AR15 carbines are at best 300-400 yd weapons, since most are running either RDS or magnified optics of 4x and less.

For 8-12" AR15 SBR's, the .300 BLK is the best current option.
For 12-16" AR15 rifles, the 6.8 mm is a fantastic multi-purpose choice.
With 5.56 mm AR15's, we are pretty much using them in two ways––16" general purpose carbines and 10-12" suppressed SBR's.

If you need to kill things at ranges beyond 300 or so, it is time to consider cartridges with a larger case capacity than can easily fit in an AR15, as well as higher magnification optics in order to ID your target––think at a minimum a 16" semi-auto .308 rifle like a LaRue OBR/PredatAR, KAC EMC, HK417, FN SCAR-H.  For truly long range work, then a bolt action magnum is the way to rock.  

A combat experienced SOF NCO has recently commented: "If it is a precision shot, more than 250 out, and it doesn't have 4 legs, live in a hole, and do somersaults when it gets hit by 556, then I go ahead and move onto the .300 Win Mag and leave the little bullets for other things..."

Likewise, Kyle Defoor has written:

I am not sure what you consider “ACCURATE” but I shoot ¼ MOA at 200 yards with “Wolfgold MPT” and at 100 yards can touch 6 shots.  Maybe it’s just me but I am VERY satisfied for $12.50 box!

Sorry Professor,

But unless you have pics and a certified affidavit from God, I am not going to believe that.

FB

I'm a big fan of the 6.8.  Of course, I am a reloader and do hunt with this round.  I find that the 110gr. Nosler Accubond is the best for my purposes and is light on the pocket.  Sierra Pro-Hunter is my next choice - much cheaper - I'm just a Nosler fan.  

When I first started working with the 6.8, I went with the Hornday V-Max - which is a very good round and very accurate.  I just simply dont use it for hunting but it does do some damage.  

You really have to determine what you are going to be using the weapon for before you can decide what caliber is best.  For close quarter combat, go with the .300, for long range target shooting, do the 6.5G, for hunting and just a good all around caliber, go with the 6.8.  Mine is an 18" from Bison and it shoots like a dream.

What are you going to be doing with your gun at 1000 yards? I'm not trying to start anything but I did a ton of research as well and I determined 6.8 was better. One deciding factor for me was the army's testing of projectiles between 5.56  and 7.62 in an AR15 sized platform. They readily agreed the 6.5 was more accurate, but at AR15 capable velocities, the 7mm had the most devastating terminal performance. The 6.8mm gave up little in performance to the 7mm and little in accuracy to the 6.5, which is the reason they developed the 6.8 fully. Now with SSA loading the 140 gr VLD with a BC of .487 and a 16-inch barrel MV of 2400 fps, it is about the best you are going to do in an AR15 size platform. I own a POF308 AR10, and while I think it is great for hunting, it is too heavy and the recoil impulse a little too stout to be a fantastic defensive rifle.

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_140gr_VLD_Berger.aspx

He obviously can out-shoot the capabilities of the ammo.

I'm a little on the late side for responding.
Anyhoo, I didn't know Wolf made 140gr 6.5G bullets!
1/2" at 200y with Wolf ammo. I'm with fatboy. Handload w/Lapua brass & Match bullets & hand lapped match grade 24" barrel maybe?


PS In 30 cal. the 30 HRT looks sweet.

Looking at paper and seeing numbers is to hypothetical;most would say the 6.5 has alot of potential to reach that it will probably happen when colt releases their rifle(carbine) this  fall.The 6.8 can and does work but never will become a replacement for the 5.56;and there is nothing that even has a chance against the 7.62.Just cause  it looks good on paper does not mean it is in a practial sense better.

I have to wonder what some people are thinking when they rationalize things like have been written in this thread.

First, either the cartridge fits in an AR15/M4 chassis or it doesn't.  If it doesn't then we are discussing an AR10 and that's a whole different ballgame.

So 5.56, 6.5 and 6.8... is the basis of this discussion.

First, none of these cartridges are 1,000 yard rounds.    They simply don't have the ballistics to do it.   I've worn out several barrels competing at 1,000 yards in NRA Long Range HP.
A lot of 7.62x51 loadings suck at 1,000 yards.  You can take the standard 168gr SMK load and its usually subsonic at 1,000 and I've seen many keyhole at that range.  The 155 Palma bullet, the 175 SMK and the 190 SMK are much better 1,000 yard bullets as most of them will still be supersonic.  The 155 Palma just barely...   Not only do the 1,000 yard ballistics on these carbine length bullets (5.56, 6.8, 6.5) suck––they have almost no gas when they get there so they are basically expensive paper punchers.  To build a 1,000 yard rig in any of these calibers is folly and a waste of money as there are so many better choices out there––none in an AR15 platform however.   You bozos with 16" carbines talking about 1,000 yard shooting with these rounds is like talking about taking your Toyota Prius to the Indy 500.   Ain't gonna happen.  You don't have the barrel to get it done.   I bet there's nobody here who could even tell me the come-ups at 1,000 yards for a 6.8 SPC.

Second, none of these cartridges has the energy to do much real "work" beyond 300 yards.  The energy levels on all drop below commonly accepted energy thresholds to actually do what you expect a rifle cartridge to do.  The 5.56 really isn't as potent as it should be when it gets below 150-170 yards (below 2700 fps).  The 6.8 drops below 1,000 Ft Lbs energy in almost all loadings beyond 300 yards and is down to ~700 Ft Lbs at 400 yards.   The commonly accepted energy threshold for deer/medium game in a rifle cartridge has long been accepted as 1,000 ft/lbs.  (See anything written in the last 50 years by Jack OConnor or Craig Boddington).     These energy levels at these distances put the 6.5 and 6.8 below the energy levels of the .30 cal Carbine which has never been considered either a great manstopper or deer cartridge.  
I'm not saying you can't kill things with these cartridges at 400 yards.  Just that its VERY marginal and clearly on the wrong side of the margin at that....

So you want to punch paper at 400-1,000 yards.  Shoot the 5.56 77 gr SMK––you'll have better results for less cost.

Having said all that, under 300 yards you will find the 6.8 is a superb cartridge that gets reasonable velocities with good mid-weight for caliber bullets.  In a 16" barrel you can easily drive a 85 grain Barnes TSX to 3,000 fps +/- 50 fps.  You can also drive a 95 grain TSX to 2700-2800 fps.    ts true, the 6.5 has better ballistic coefficients.  Big Woop.    At under three hundred yards and under 2600 fps that and a $5.29 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!   BC is a strawman argument that is meaningless at short distances.  Talk about the BC all you want.  Tell me what it MEANS in actual calculated differences in velocities and drop/windage at 100 to 300 yards and tell the PRACTICAL advantage for anyone but a benchrest shooter.   Zero, Zip Nada....  People quote things like BC because they think it makes them look smart.  Anyone who's actually had some trigger time on the line at 200, 300, 600 yards and beyond will tell you that all the BC in the world is meaningless if you can't dope wind and don't know your come-ups.    Internet idiots focus WAY to much on WHAT they shoot and not enough on HOW they shoot.   You can't buy a good long range shot––there's not a rig or cartridge out there that will make you a competant long range shot any more than buying a Steinway Grand Piano will make you a concert pianist.    You gotta wear out a couple of barrels and drop $5-10k on ammo along the way.    That's the way you get there.  

Shoot what you like.  6.5 vs. 6.8.  Who cares.  If you think you are buying a better cartridge by choosing one over the other you are probably deluding yourself in terms of you abilities to eek out marginal performance from a rifle cartridge at extreme ranges.  
If you can't kill a deer with a 6.5 or 6.8 at 300 yards it ain't the gun fellas.  And if you shoot at game beyond that its really a matter of bad judgement and not understanding why you use the right tool for the job.  

I just thought I'd point out to you your post is very "braggy". While I do agree with some of what you are saying, I currently own two semi-auto rifles that regularly acheive 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards. One of those is a Barrett Rec7 with an AR15performance 16-inch nitrided scout barrel. The other is a POF 308 with a 16-inch Rock Creek fluted, nitrided barrel. Both guns have upgraded triggers. On Saturday, in light wind, at Rio Salado Sportsmen Club in the Phoenix area, I was regularly  connecting with a 12 x 24 steel plate at 500 yards using an ACOG TA33 with Hornady 110 BTHP in 6.8. I was also able to chrono my .308 and dial in my Knights Bullet Flight software on my iPhone for my Barnes TSX 168 grain loading. I don't have any formal long range training, but I don't think it would take me too long to begin to connect with targets at 1000 yards with my POF, which has a Nightforce 3.5-15x56 scope mounted on it. I don't plan on shooting out the barrel on my POF anytime soon either to make that happen. You don't actually point out what accuracy you are talking about at 1000 yards either. Are you talking a man size target, or less than 1 moa groups? There are army snipers using Barrett .50's that regularly engage man size targets to 1500 meters and beyond. Would it surprise you to learn that most Barrett .50's are 2 MOA guns?

I'm not bragging I'm pointing out PRACTICAL realities and limitations of cartridges and their ballistics based on experience.

I could give a crap about a 1/2 MOA gun.  Or a 1/4 MOA gun.  Its a meaningless factoid that sheds no light on the PRACTICAL capabilities of the cartridge.    I can and have shot my 45-70 Trapdoor at 600 yards.  So what?  Its moving so slow at 600 yards you can actually hear the bullet coming when you are in the pits pulling the target and the trajectory of the round puts it more than 30 feet above the point of aim.  So what?  Its going about 300 fps... The trajectory is so high you have to put the butt down in the dirt to be able to use the Buffington sights.  Its virtually useless.  

How much retained velocity does your 6.8 bullet have at 600?  How much energy?   its nice that you can shoot a tiny group on paper.  Can you do it in the wind?  Can you even dope wind?  Does the bullet have a reasonable amount of energy to actually kill something at ANY range beyond 300?    Those are meaningful questions.  What good is a 1/2 MOA rifle if you can't dope wind at 600 yards and you are shooting on a windy day?   What good is a 1/2 MOA gun when the bullet doesn't have the energy to take down a living target.

As I said, at 400 a 6.8 has less energy than a .30 Cal Carbine.  Again––not a great manstopper or deer cartridge.  At 600 you have roughly the energy of a .22 magnum.  So again, nice shooting there  with your 1/2 MOA gun.  But what difference does it make if your bullet can't get the job done.  

I have no doubt you can poke a hole in paper at 1,000 yards with any of them.  I have SIGNIFICANT doubts about your ability to do it consistently, in the wind and actually kill something at extended ranges.    The ballistics do not support the latter.

Practical accuracy is interesting.  Mechanical accuracy is meaningless.   Nobody can hold a gun to 1/2 MOA in the field.   David Tubb––the 6 time  National Highpower Rifle  Champion can't hold his rifle to a half MOA.  On a HP target the X ring is about 1 MOA and the 10 ring is about 2 MOA.  In other words if someone could hold a rifle in a match to 2 MOA they could shoot a perfect score of 800 points.  If they could hold it to 1 MOA they could shoot a perfect score of 800 with a perfect X count of 80.   Never seen it done or heard of it happening––EVER.    The wind catches some people, the light plays with other people.  The gun is not the weak link in the equation––the shooter is.  Even the best shots in the country can't hold their rifles to 2 MOA!!!!    I'm not talking about shooting off a bench.  I'm talking about shooting standing, sitting and prone here.

So again, talking about the 6.8 or 6.5 on the context of being 600 or 1,000 yards is useless.  Other than punching a hole in paper what can you do with it?  Again, I'm here to tell you most all these carbine bullets are REALLY going to suck at 1,000 yards.  From an energy standpoint, from a trajectory/velocity standpoint and from an accuracy standpoint.    How much dope do you need for a 6.8 bullet at 1,000 yards in a 5 mph cross wind?  I'm going to say 3-6 MOA  That's 30-60 inches of applied windage!  If the wind drops by half to 2.5 MPH and you miss the change in wind you will MISS a 6X6 foot target!

So again, 1/2 MOA.  Who cares?  I can take my 1.5 MOA gun and make any shot I need to make on a deer out to the practical limitations of the cartridge––about 300 yards.   You can't hold the gun to 1/2 MOA in the field and neither can I.   But I can make a 300 yard shot on a deer and put the bullet in the kill zone and the deer will never now the difference if he was shot with a 2 MOA gun vs a 1/2 MOA gun.  

Whoa there cowboy!!! My post made no mention of ballistics whatsoever and I said nothing about the terminal effectiveness of the rounds being discussed. So while I appreciate your lengthy response about how lame 6.8 is past 300 yards, I think you responded to a point that wasn't really there.  I already said I pretty much agree with your assessment of the right round for the yardage. However, the SSA 140 VLD is still supersonic past 1000 yards and is over 500 ft lbs at 800 yards. Now would I want to shoot a deer at 800 yards with this cartridge? Absolutely not. In fact what is the sport in shooting one at more than 300 yards? However, I still think you could humanely engage a target with this round out to 500 yards. The 168 grain .308 round doesn't do much better out of a 16 inch barrel, staying over 500 ft lbs out past 900 yards, but it isn't like the .308 isn't anything but marginally better than 6.8 in the 140 grain loading. The next step up is obviously 300 WinMag, .338 etc.

My response was really geared toward your comments about 16 inch barrels and HITTING targets at 1000 yards. You didn't list any criteria and yes my 1/2 moa groups are from the bench, on sandbags, with barrel cooling time between each shot. But you made no mention of constraints of your 1000 yard comments which were "Ain't gonna happen. You don't have the barrel to get it done. I bet there's nobody here who could even tell me the come-ups at 1,000 yards for a 6.8 SPC."

"there's not a rig or cartridge out there that will make you a competent long range shot any more than buying a Steinway Grand Piano will make you a concert pianist. You gotta wear out a couple of barrels and drop $5-10k on ammo along the way. That's the way you get there." I'm not sure I agree with this assessment either. While I think there is no substitute for experience, there are a few great sniper schools out there that can give one a reasonable level of basic skills to accomplish 1000 yard hits in 5 days of training and about $1200 worth of ammo.

The intended purpose of the 140 LR (.487 BC) is to be able to reach 800 yards and have at least 500 ft lbs on energy which it does, its intend is to keep someones head down. Is it accurate yes, one calm morning at 800 we placed 10 out of 10 into a 10 inch cycle but the weapon was setup like a sniper rig and off a rest. Its not meant to be a sniper round but under the right conditions would i take a shot at a deer or possibly an Elk at 500 to 600 yards, yes. At 600 yards its still over 1,500 FPS and is carrying over 700 ft lb of energy out of a 16 inch light weight AR15 platform. Art - SSA

I would be happy to post pix if you could explain how to do it.  I cant seem to figure out how to get them posted.  I shot those group out of my new JP 6.5.  It really does not matter what you believe, it happened.  Some of these responses just kill me.  If you are reading this, I must appoligize (spelling error).  This post has COMPLETELY lost its focus and I am going to have to say good luck and good buy!  The 6.8, 6.5, and .308 are ALL great weapons.  The 6.5 has made me VERY happy.  Good luck and happy hunting and shooting.