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GHPorter
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Posted: 5/18/2012 7:09:17 AM
First, OP, I'm glad nobody was hurt with that AD, and I hope the wife unit is cool with the tile being fixed.

Second, when I first read your original post, I was confused about what was going on when you said you chambered a round at home; it wasn't clear whether you were doing a function test (where dummies would be the appropriate choice instead of live rounds) or if you were chambering for home defense. It wasn't long before that became clear, but the background noise from others who didn't read the whole thread before posting was really distracting.

Third, If that picture of the two different TAP rounds shows a "good" round on the right and a questionable one on the left, this is a good time to tell a bit of a story. I bought a bunch of Winchester Q3131 a long time ago, and was putting it all on strippers when I found one box with TWO obviously bad rounds; one had a bad extractor groove, and the other had a groove but no rim! The first looked like it had gone through the groove cutter but the cutter blade was broken - there was an indentation but not enough to call it a groove - the second looked like it was the case the cutter broke on, and the cutter chewed off the rim in the process. Of course I took that box back, along with the two or three others with the same lot number. Since then, I ALWAYS inspect my ammunition before it gets into a magazine. It's easy to do when the rounds come in a box, primers up, and it becomes automatic after just a couple of boxes.

Finally, have you gone any further with Hornady on this? It sounds like something they need a LOT of feedback on. If you didn't have the original FTF round to send them, did you send them the slam fire round? Hornady has a rather large amount on the line here: their reputation. If there's a problem with their primers or their loading processes or machines, it is in their best interest to fix it fast, and the only way they can do that accurately is to get lots of data (from people who experience problems) and use that to track down what exactly happened. Between the SWAT incident posted earlier and the slam fire you posted about, I'm getting a sense that maybe those primers aren't as consistent as they need to be, with some too tough and others too soft. An otherwise perfectly safe AR should not cause a slam fire with ammunition intended for military-grade rifles (like TAP is supposed to be), and conversely, it's not appropriate to use extra-sensitive, benchrest primers in an AR load. Something is goofy here, and I want Hornady to fix it, but I don't think they can if they don't get plenty of information to base the fix on.
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
ratfink57
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Posted: 5/18/2012 8:41:04 AM
Originally Posted By Blkt6:
Whats the point of having a firearm if you cant trust it. There are alot of people relying on ar's everyday to defend their lives and the lives of the public. I hope its a bad round and not a design flaw. Shouldn't the firing pin only strike the primer when you pull the trigger. I guess we should all switch to AK's.


Most AKs have floating firing pins too. I think my old PolyTech had a spring on it but I could be wrong. That was a long time ago.

Not a fan of AAC. I should have bought an Ops Inc.
jukeboxx13
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Posted: 5/18/2012 10:41:24 AM
Dang i have been chambering the same round in my ar like 20 times now. ill go shoot it later.
NotIssued
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Posted: 5/18/2012 11:53:16 AM
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Dang i have been chambering the same round in my ar like 20 times now. ill go shoot it later.

Don't know if you saw it, but Doc GKR recommends NOT re-chambering a round, based on some stories about bad primers (sorry if it was mentioned in this thread, I've been skimming it occasionally as it grows)

1IV
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Posted: 5/18/2012 11:57:01 AM
First post nails it.
The 2nd Amendment is not about rights. It is about CAPABILITY. It is about ensuring the capability to respond to violence, and oppression. Not with 1 round, or 10, but with the full force of indignant violence deserved at a breach of our peace.


boardin223
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Posted: 5/18/2012 3:04:31 PM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2012 3:16:15 PM by boardin223]
20 times is 20 too many, if that is a TAP round there is no doubt the primer is dead. I keep all my once chambered rounds for a range day or varmints.

GHPorter Thank you very much for sharing your story, another good reason to inspect all ammo befire loading it into mags, whether it is for HD or just a range day i still inspect the ammo now.

And yes the round on the left is from the slam fire and the round on the right is a random round out of the same lot# with an obviously proper primer depth.

I have not heard anything from hornady yet. i would be pretty surprised if i did to be honest. I was pretty disappointed with their initial response.
wyv3rn
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Posted: 5/18/2012 6:09:11 PM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2012 6:13:08 PM by wyv3rn]
I agree that there's nothing wrong with chambering a round in your home. The rifle should always (and was) be pointed in a safe direction. I don't understand why people gave you grief over that. I personally keep a pistol chambered and the long guns loaded but no round chambered. Both are valid with proper firearms handling/storage practices.

But now you're being over-dramatic. It is wrong to say all Hornady TAP is like this. Maybe you got a lot with sensitive primers. The primer-deadening thing is the case for all primers in all ammo and not unique to Hornady TAP (yes some are harder/more resistant than others). When the first reports of this happening with TAP years ago I wanted to test it out. I re-chambered TAP rounds at the range many times without deadening the primer. After around 10-15 chamberings each of 3 or 4 rounds I got bored of it. None of the rounds were dead.

I want to repeat my response to this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/573968_How_many_times_can_you_chamber_a_new_rd_in_an_AR_before_it_goes_bad_.html

"I hope you're not looking for some exact number like "13" "21" "87", etc. Depends on far too many factors (the rifle, the primer, etc.) to provide a reliable number. Repeated chambering and associated light primer tap will eventually wear out any round. Don't chamber a round you plan to use for serious applications (duty use, home defense, etc.) more than once."
boardin223
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Posted: 5/18/2012 6:46:27 PM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2012 6:48:02 PM by boardin223]
I could not agree more with the magic number statement, but what I found running rounds through MY rifle were much different than yours. Maybe i am just very unlucky and got many bad rounds in a few different boxes. I urge you all to try what i did and decide for yourselves, not necessarily with TAP but with any brand of ammo you use for HD. I wouldnt want or expect anyone to take this thread or my findings at face value, go out and try it for yourslef.
MrBear80229
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Posted: 5/18/2012 6:55:47 PM
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
contact hornady with the lot info if possible.

their critical defense pistol ammo had some similar problems not that long ago.



This

and in fact the OP's experience with Hornady seems to fit in with other issues reported by users of both pistol and rifle ammo. The Critical Defense ammo has been reported in the press to be underloaded in terms of velocity in comparison to other defensive loads.. Given all the negative stuff I've seen about Hornady over the years I choose not to buy it.
Clint50
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Posted: 5/19/2012 2:22:56 AM
I've shot a bunch of TAP 5.56 75gr without ever having a problem. So,since the OP had a problem with a small amount of .223 60gr,I need to quit shooting my 75gr. Right
I shot some WW white box .223 55gr in my Colt the other day at the range or should I say I tried to shoot it. Split case mouths,double feeds,you name it. Tried it in my POF with the same result. Guess you folks better not shoot that stuff,either. Tried some Federal M193 and some TAP 5.56,no problems.
I've probably shot 10K rounds of different .223 and 5.56 over the last ten or fifteen years. Just about every brand I've shot has had a problem at one time or another. But,I'm still shooting my AR's every month and plan to keep doing so until I die.
Mass produced ammo will have a problem from time to time. Deal with it or quit shooting.
GHPorter
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Posted: 5/19/2012 8:07:20 AM
Hornady has always been very good with customer service when I contacted them with issues with reloading equipment. I find it hard to believe that their ammunition division's customer service office is staffed by jerks when the rest of the company is staffed with good people. Time for a follow up call to them?
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
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The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 5/19/2012 10:01:56 AM
on the bright side it appears ceramic tiles stop it just fine
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
supplemental.
boardin223
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Posted: 5/19/2012 3:22:05 PM
Originally Posted By Clint50:
I've shot a bunch of TAP 5.56 75gr without ever having a problem. So,since the OP had a problem with a small amount of .223 60gr,I need to quit shooting my 75gr. Right
I shot some WW white box .223 55gr in my Colt the other day at the range or should I say I tried to shoot it. Split case mouths,double feeds,you name it. Tried it in my POF with the same result. Guess you folks better not shoot that stuff,either. Tried some Federal M193 and some TAP 5.56,no problems.
I've probably shot 10K rounds of different .223 and 5.56 over the last ten or fifteen years. Just about every brand I've shot has had a problem at one time or another. But,I'm still shooting my AR's every month and plan to keep doing so until I die.
Mass produced ammo will have a problem from time to time. Deal with it or quit shooting.


That is not what i said at all. I said people should try a similar and perhaps more rigorous test with their personal HD ammunition to ensure that they dont have a similar issue.

I had my AR locked and loaded for 3 days with the TAP ammo, now i know this is far fetched but lets say i wake up to the sound of breaking glass and find an intruder in my home, he is holding a pistol. I raise my rifle and pull the trigger and CLICK! That is what would have happend to me if i hadnt rechecked my ammo and not accepted the fact that i probably just got a bad box.

boardin223
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Posted: 5/19/2012 3:23:57 PM
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Hornady has always been very good with customer service when I contacted them with issues with reloading equipment. I find it hard to believe that their ammunition division's customer service office is staffed by jerks when the rest of the company is staffed with good people. Time for a follow up call to them?


Well my only contact was through Email. The Email just seemed rushed, like it was not their problem, I also had to pay to ship the ammo back. But hey maybe they were just busy that day or something, ill shoot them another email and see what i get.

boardin223
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Posted: 5/19/2012 3:25:48 PM
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
on the bright side it appears ceramic tiles stop it just fine


No doubt! that thing was carrying alot of energy because it did that much damage and bowed the wood ceiling in the basement.

MIDGAPATRIOT
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Posted: 5/19/2012 11:44:05 PM
Originally Posted By Cpl_Joe:
My question is why are you chambering rounds in your home in the first place? Sounds to me like the only thing unsafe about the ammo is the user.




This has got to be the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a week.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
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WShifflett
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Posted: 5/19/2012 11:52:42 PM
Originally Posted By MIDGAPATRIOT:
Originally Posted By Cpl_Joe:
My question is why are you chambering rounds in your home in the first place? Sounds to me like the only thing unsafe about the ammo is the user.




This has got to be the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a week.


And its not even GD!
Wise men still seek him.

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Clint50
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Posted: 5/20/2012 12:16:53 AM
[Last Edit: 5/20/2012 12:29:18 AM by Clint50]
Originally Posted By boardin223:

That is not what i said at all. I said people should try a similar and perhaps more rigorous test with their personal HD ammunition to ensure that they dont have a similar issue.

I


"Hornady TAP BIG PROBLEMS! DO NOT USE IT! " This is what you posted as your subject header,right?
Let's try not to tar all TAP ammo with the same brush.
Cpl_Joe
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Posted: 5/20/2012 2:08:12 AM
Originally Posted By MIDGAPATRIOT:
Originally Posted By Cpl_Joe:
My question is why are you chambering rounds in your home in the first place? Sounds to me like the only thing unsafe about the ammo is the user.




This has got to be the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a week.



He had rounds misfire and other problems with the ammo and decided to chamber them in his home afterwards. I forgot to put "those" before the word rounds in my post. If you bothered to read further posts I explained that my issue was with someone chambering questionable ammo in their home. I was not the only poster commenting on the chambering of rounds in the home either, but since I only had 5 posts I suppose a guru like you assumes you're better than me. Being of such higher intelligence that you must revert to flaming on a forum must be the highlight of your life. FYI, 6000+ posts on a gun forum means nothing other than you have too much time on your hands.

Originally Posted By Cpl_Joe:

Originally Posted By Manny2_0:
Joe

people carry their weapons at diff. degree's of readiness, someones degree may not appeal to your for whatever reason kids, fear of a neg. dis.
a hot weapon is a dangerous one, but it is the only one that will fire,

I personally don't have hot weapons, inside because I like to dry fire every other day or so, and would like to avoid a mistake as much as poss. other wise I would keep them hot
they are loaded and I only chamber a rounds when walking out the door or answering it

Everyone's choice is diff.


I agree Manny but if I'm having issues with my ammo firing or not firing I seriously doubt I'd be chambering those rounds in my home.

35mm_Shooter
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Posted: 5/20/2012 2:21:46 AM
For "premium" ammo, TAP sure misses the mark. About 4 years ago, the 5.56 red box loads had problems with primers popping. I've never had such a bad experience with even surplus ammo. Paid $1/round and found primers jamming up the internals of my AR, could have been bad news.
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Posted: 5/20/2012 3:43:19 AM
[Last Edit: 5/20/2012 3:50:32 AM by Swat_dude]
I just need to weigh in on a few things here:

Checking the bolt carrier group for a light primer strike is not going to show you anything. What you need to inspect is your hammer spring.

Also, it is hard to tell from the photo, but the bullet on the left appears to have an unstaked primer while the one on the right is staked. The markings on the case appear to be different as well, with the one of the left having some type of symbol between 223 and rem.

Here is a warning from SSA's website...

SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS for TACTICAL LOADS:
1. This ammunition uses Mil-Spec primers, min 4.5lb hammer spring required.
2. Your weapon must be to Mil-Spec requirements for this ammunition to function
properly. Spec II chambered weapon with a 1:10 twist or slower.
3. SSA will not accept returns on this ammunition for failure to fire
.

As far as ammo for duty use... When I was fist issued ammo at my department, we were trained to remove the barrel from our handgun and then INSPECT and INSERT each round into the chamber to reveal any issues before loading the mags up. I still do this for any ammo I consider "carry" ammo including doing this prior to loading AR Mags for HD.

I have had great luck with Hornady ammo and consider it to be some of the best, along with Federal. I did get a batch of .45 HST that upon inspection, several rounds were damaged or dented. I sent the 5 affected rounds back to Federal and they sent me a box of 50. I also received some Hornady 6.8 ammo which did not have crimped primers. I sent it back for exchange. The bullet manufacturing process is subject to human error. You own some responsibility to:

-Fire sufficient rounds from each lot number to verify functioning in your gun.

-Inspect any rounds you intend to implement for Duty or HD use prior to loading mags and/or the firearm.

-Rotate any "duty" ammo on an annual or semi-annual schedule.

I would also look at mil-spec ammo for duty or HD use, ensuring that it employs a cannelure for use in a semi-auto firearm, staked or crimped primers, and some type of sealant on the primer and case neck to assure water resistance.
Lomshek
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Posted: 5/20/2012 1:31:05 PM
boardin223,

If you listed it somewhere else I missed it. There are some details we'd like to know since you brought this problem up.

1) Exact ammunition & lot #. Hornady makes all kinds of TAP ammo that fits in an AR.

2) Rifle specs (Brand, model, and any mods that have been done).

If you have the ability to measure firing pin protrusion that would be nice to know in case yours is out of spec and contributing.

The possible causes change depending on whether you have a Colt 6920 in factory condition or a Hesse receiver home build with match trigger, reduced power hammer spring and bargain basement BCG from CDNN.
Sure would be nice to be a wanna be again instead of a used to be.
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Posted: 5/20/2012 9:07:03 PM
Originally Posted By FiremanFrank:
I guess I should chamber a round in my pistol at the range. No, that won't work as all guns must be unloaded until you are on the firing line. So when can I load my firearms for self defense? I have loaded several different pistols, rifles and shotguns over the years at home if they were to be used for home defense. I really don't see what the problem is.


Every time i come home from the range and clean my home defense gun i run into my front yard and chamber my pistol and come back in.

I do that for every weapon i load at home]. Until the neighbors complain





I keed i load and chamber all my home defens weapons in the the house. How else would you chamber a HD gun ?
BillofRights
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Posted: 5/20/2012 9:47:57 PM
interesting that the floor was not fully penetrated. You could make some inexpensive body armor out that tile!

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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12_gauge
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Posted: 5/21/2012 10:03:29 AM
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter:
For "premium" ammo, TAP sure misses the mark. About 4 years ago, the 5.56 red box loads had problems with primers popping. I've never had such a bad experience with even surplus ammo. Paid $1/round and found primers jamming up the internals of my AR, could have been bad news.


Hornady has a long and embarrassing track record. I stopped buying their products.

Their pistol ammo had primer issues.
Their TAP LE ammo had primer issues.
Now this guy has issues with the .223 TAP primers.


Just...don't buy it. Better stuff out there, anyway, and it doesn't have these kinds of problems.
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