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tschlemm
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:02:49 PM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2012 9:04:22 PM by tschlemm]
I had a chance to fire 5 rounds of the Federal LE 15 pellet #1 buckshot with Flitecontrol. I put my target out about 7 yards which is the same distance as the farthest distance of my hallway. I forgot my camera so I had to take the picture at home.



CaptSkip
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:19:12 PM
Federal #1 Buck is tops. Where are you buying?
tschlemm
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:26:40 PM
I ordered it from Ammoman.com. They had limited quantities so I do not know if they have any more.
jmt1271
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:29:30 PM
I think this is the same stuff I stocked up on about 3-4 years ago.

Federal Premium Tactical with Flitecontrol wad. Or something like that. I have the same results as you show in the pictures. Was very impressed with it and it stays in my 12 gauge.
The Hippie Clown will bring them down!!
tschlemm
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:42:53 PM
I still have some Federal 132 and 133 OO buckshot with flitecontrol. I'm not sure how new it is but I have only fired OO buckshot and rifled slugs. I ordered some and I'm quite pleased with the tight grouping due to flitecontrol.
toki
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Posted: 4/30/2012 12:17:28 AM
Originally Posted By tschlemm:
I ordered it from Ammoman.com. They had limited quantities so I do not know if they have any more.


...and now you tell us. I have not been able to find this load anywhere since it was released. Even my local police supply which is over flowing with every other desirable ammunition load you can think of can't get their hands on any.
ggibbs
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Posted: 4/30/2012 1:23:22 AM
That's a nice group. What choke? Have you considered large birdshot for HD? Seriously, at 7 yds. (21'), ANY load is going to totally maim whatever it hits. I doubt it matters what size buckshot. Really a little more spread in the pattern might be advantageous at such short distances.

GG
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Posted: 4/30/2012 2:01:50 AM
Originally Posted By toki:
Even my local police supply which is over flowing with every other desirable ammunition load you can think of can't get their hands on any.

Direct from Federal they have plenty of it available to ship, just that the big distributors aren't ordering it so little is making its way to the market.
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FB41
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Posted: 4/30/2012 2:18:55 AM
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
That's a nice group. What choke? Have you considered large birdshot for HD? Seriously, at 7 yds. (21'), ANY load is going to totally maim whatever it hits. I doubt it matters what size buckshot. Really a little more spread in the pattern might be advantageous at such short distances.

GG


You need to read this. Save the birdshot for the dove fields.
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Posted: 4/30/2012 6:30:45 AM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 6:31:38 AM by Forgetfull]
Originally Posted By FB41:
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
That's a nice group. What choke? Have you considered large birdshot for HD? Seriously, at 7 yds. (21'), ANY load is going to totally maim whatever it hits. I doubt it matters what size buckshot. Really a little more spread in the pattern might be advantageous at such short distances.

GG


You need to read this. Save the birdshot for the dove fields.


If it's too many words read this specifically-

"When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'""
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ggibbs
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Posted: 4/30/2012 7:45:01 AM

You need to read this. Save the birdshot for the dove fields.


If it's too many words read this specifically-

"When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'""





People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG
rosejackets67
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:00:10 AM
Originally Posted By ggibbs:

People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG


Sooo... What are YOU doing?

Birshot is, in fact, for birds.

Not surprisingly, shotgun loads designed for killing critters in the 150-200lb range are good at killing critters in the 150-200lb range.
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Blain
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:33:27 AM
Plenty of farners have downed hogs, cattle, stray dogs, etc with birdshot at close ranges. It acts as a frangible slug up close, as it is basically one large mass still lumped together. Inside of 10 yards it can be very devastating. Hell, inside of a few yards the wad, or even a blank, can kill you.
TaylorWSO
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:34:46 AM

Originally Posted By ggibbs:





People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG

I hope you came prepared for this. Your about to have a ton of FACTS throw at you not hearsay.

Your being hardheaded, and birdshot is not the answer.
Anything is possible, everything is temporary
Powderfinger
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:56:08 AM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 8:33:58 PM by VA-gunnut]
Edited...VA-gunnut




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tschlemm
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Posted: 4/30/2012 9:05:22 AM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 9:26:39 AM by tschlemm]
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
That's a nice group. What choke? Have you considered large birdshot for HD? Seriously, at 7 yds. (21'), ANY load is going to totally maim whatever it hits. I doubt it matters what size buckshot. Really a little more spread in the pattern might be advantageous at such short distances.

GG


I have a Mossberg 590A1 and it does not have the ability to accommodate a choke.
trh53
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Posted: 4/30/2012 9:39:44 AM
Originally Posted By tschlemm:
I ordered it from Ammoman.com. They had limited quantities so I do not know if they have any more.


None there as of right now.
tschlemm
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Posted: 4/30/2012 5:37:12 PM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 8:45:04 PM by tschlemm]
I apologize for not posting ammo deal on this website as I thought this ammunition forum was discuissing AR15 ammo. I didn't think about it until I saw another post about 12 ga OO buckshot. I did post on Shotgun World about where I was able to order #1 buckshot. Next time I will also include AR15.com.
ggibbs
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Posted: 5/1/2012 12:13:19 AM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2012 12:18:38 AM by ggibbs]
Originally Posted By rosejackets67:
Originally Posted By ggibbs:

People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG


Sooo... What are YOU doing?

Birshot is, in fact, for birds.

Not surprisingly, shotgun loads designed for killing critters in the 150-200lb range are good at killing critters in the 150-200lb range.


This is what I'm doing:

First, a 12 ga. with a standard field load of 3 1/4 dr eq. & 1 1/4 oz. #6 (1220 fps):





Next, same load fire into 5/8" engineer grade plywood (hard, hard stuff. you'll find this as the material used for boat transoms):





Just to be sure, I grabbed one of my .410's and fired a 3/4 oz load of #6's (1100 fps):






I hope you came prepared for this. Your about to have a ton of FACTS throw at you not hearsay.

Your being hardheaded, and birdshot is not the answer.


There are my facts.

I've lived most of my life in the country and as a curious, knuckleheaded kid prowling the river bottoms and backroads with a shotgun, shot at everything imagineable both living and inanimate. Those days gave me a real good idea of the kind of destruction that can be wrought by a shotgun; even loaded with birdshot. Even so, when I got in from work, my morbid curiousity got the best of me, so I performed the above experiments for the readers info and pleasure.

I doubt seriously that any human could survive any shotgun blast from 6' unless an extremity was hit, and them decapitation would surely be certain.

GG


tctlrld
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Posted: 5/1/2012 12:22:33 AM
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
Originally Posted By rosejackets67:
Originally Posted By ggibbs:

People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG


Sooo... What are YOU doing?

Birshot is, in fact, for birds.

Not surprisingly, shotgun loads designed for killing critters in the 150-200lb range are good at killing critters in the 150-200lb range.


This is what I'm doing:

First, a 12 ga. with a standard field load of 3 1/4 dr eq. & 1 1/4 oz. #6 (1220 fps):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gasubfloor.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gasubfloorexit.jpg

Next, same load fire into 5/8" engineer grade plywood (hard, hard stuff. you'll find this as the material used for boat transoms):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gaengplywood.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12engplywoodexit-1.jpg

Just to be sure, I grabbed one of my .410's and fired a 3/4 oz load of #6's (1100 fps):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/410in.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/410exit.jpg


I hope you came prepared for this. Your about to have a ton of FACTS throw at you not hearsay.

Your being hardheaded, and birdshot is not the answer.


There are my facts.

I've lived most of my life in the country and as a curious, knuckleheaded kid prowling the river bottoms and backroads with a shotgun, shot at everything imagineable both living and inanimate. Those days gave me a real good idea of the kind of destruction that can be wrought by a shotgun; even loaded with birdshot. Even so, when I got in from work, my morbid curiousity got the best of me, so I performed the above experiments for the readers info and pleasure.

I doubt seriously that any human could survive any shotgun blast from 6' unless an extremity was hit, and them decapitation would surely be certain.

GG




Great info, in case I'm ever forced to defend myself against a sheet of plywood.
krpind
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Posted: 5/1/2012 1:17:52 AM
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
Originally Posted By rosejackets67:
Originally Posted By ggibbs:

People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG


Sooo... What are YOU doing?

Birshot is, in fact, for birds.

Not surprisingly, shotgun loads designed for killing critters in the 150-200lb range are good at killing critters in the 150-200lb range.


This is what I'm doing:

First, a 12 ga. with a standard field load of 3 1/4 dr eq. & 1 1/4 oz. #6 (1220 fps):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gasubfloor.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gasubfloorexit.jpg

Next, same load fire into 5/8" engineer grade plywood (hard, hard stuff. you'll find this as the material used for boat transoms):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12gaengplywood.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/12engplywoodexit-1.jpg

Just to be sure, I grabbed one of my .410's and fired a 3/4 oz load of #6's (1100 fps):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/410in.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/410exit.jpg


I hope you came prepared for this. Your about to have a ton of FACTS throw at you not hearsay.

Your being hardheaded, and birdshot is not the answer.


There are my facts.

I've lived most of my life in the country and as a curious, knuckleheaded kid prowling the river bottoms and backroads with a shotgun, shot at everything imagineable both living and inanimate. Those days gave me a real good idea of the kind of destruction that can be wrought by a shotgun; even loaded with birdshot. Even so, when I got in from work, my morbid curiousity got the best of me, so I performed the above experiments for the readers info and pleasure.

I doubt seriously that any human could survive any shotgun blast from 6' unless an extremity was hit, and them decapitation would surely be certain.

GG




While I will agree that it is likely to kill someone if you were able to put the barrel up against the chest of a bad guy and pull the trigger, ballistic gel testing is absolutely conclusive on this subject. Birdshot fails the parameters set for the minimum for a defensive load.

Bird shot fails to meet the minimum penetration to produce a reliable "stop" when shooting someone in self defense. The info is available. Read it. Learn it. It is true and unimpeachable.

Don't spread misinformation in the tech forums on this subject.

Defensive shooting involve shooting at someone who is not typically standing directly in front of you with their arms down to their sides. You need to penetrate through all of the obstacles between you and the BG' vitals. This might include hands and arms and perhaps a weapon. Granted nothing is going to shoot through weapon, but remember this is what you will be facing.

I also have spent decades shooting animals with shotguns. Only slugs have produced a really reliable drop dead reaction for me. I'm not a huge fan of buckshot after shooting pigs with it. If it makes you feel any better, I used to think just like you. Then I read up and the pig population exploded and limits were nonexistent so I started getting to shoot lots of pigs and seeing what would actually happen instead of what I thought should happen and it changed my mind.

YMMV
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Posted: 5/1/2012 1:43:05 AM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2012 1:53:00 AM by Forgetfull]
Sigh...

There are medical examiners, ER docs, and ballistics experts that all agree that birdshot is for birds and have seen the under penetration it has on humans- even at close ranges. Heck there was a news article about a guy who got shot in the head with birdshot and lived although ugly. It sure will kill someone but so will a 22.

You don't get to choose contact ranges so why not have the superior shotgun ammo that works 100% at 0-25 yards? You get someone on drugs/alcohol/determined you need to shut them down via extreme blood loss or CNS hit.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958


Birdshot penetrates 4.5-6 inches generally at close range. Human torso is 9-12" thick and more on a fat person. Add the rib cage which is a hard target to penetrate for a little lead pellet weighing only ~1 grain. Couple this with the fact that most aggressors will have their hands up holding a weapon or in a fighting position you now have another barrier to overcome. There's a reason that 12" is that magic number.
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ggibbs
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Posted: 5/1/2012 7:55:46 AM
Guys, I'm not condoning birdshot as the best choice for defense. The purpose of my impromptu test was to point out that someone being shot at 6' with a shotgun, with little ill effects, is nothing short of absurd, internet BS. If any of you would like to leave the keyboard for a few minutes a perform some tests of your own to prove that birdshot at 6' is in fact hardly lethal, I'm open minded to your results.

I also have spent decades shooting animals with shotguns. Only slugs have produced a really reliable drop dead reaction for me. I'm not a huge fan of buckshot after shooting pigs with it. If it makes you feel any better, I used to think just like you. Then I read up and the pig population exploded and limits were nonexistent so I started getting to shoot lots of pigs and seeing what would actually happen instead of what I thought should happen and it changed my mind.


Really... This is interesting because I happen to have a buddy who's a predator control specialist for the Federal Government. Here in Texas we refer to them as "Govenment Trappers". His job is to fly a helicopter while a gunner with him kills coyotes, bobcats, and most of all hogs. When I met him in '85 and he told me what he did, I asked him what kind of rifles they used. "Shotguns with buckshot" he replied. "Even for hogs?" "Yep." We don't talk about his job much, but he was up here three weeks ago and we got on the subject of hog problems, etc. and I asked him what they were using to shoot hogs these days and again his reply was buckshot.

These guys don't kill just a few hogs here and there on the weekends. The other day he told me they were on the Waggoner Ranch (535,000 acres) a while back and killed about 3000 hogs in the first week alone, and roughly 500 per week for the few weeks thereafter...all with buckshot. Next time I see him I'll tell him buckshot doesn't work on hogs because someone on the internet said so....

GG
TaylorWSO
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Posted: 5/1/2012 8:32:13 AM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2012 8:35:34 AM by TaylorWSO]


You might be one of the densest people on this board. You mixing facts and crossing arguments to support your theory. Liberals do this all the time

1. testing against plywood and comparing it to the human is laughable

Originally Posted By ggibbs:

People will post anything on the internet to sway the decisions of others.

GG

really, hypocrite much the plywood show was awesome



2. BUCK shot does not equal BIRD shot. I love how your argument has gone from birdshot to buckshot and rationalizing that they all do the same thing

Originally Posted By ggibbs:
That's a nice group. What choke? Have you considered large birdshot for HD? Seriously, at 7 yds. (21'), ANY load is going to totally maim whatever it hits. I doubt it matters what size buckshot.

Originally Posted By ggibbs:

"Shotguns with buckshot" he replied. "Even for hogs?" "Yep." We don't talk about his job much, but he was up here three weeks ago and we got on the subject of hog problems, etc. and I asked him what they were using to shoot hogs these days and again his reply was buckshot.
Next time I see him I'll tell him buckshot doesn't work on hogs because someone on the internet said so....


By your account bird shot will work on hogs then. Circular arguments don't work well.




No one said it was "not" going to do anything, but recommending it as a HD load is foolish. If you personally like to roll that way and will accept the poor performance then that is perfectly fine. Recommending such a folly is looked down upon in the tech because most want to use the best available when it comes down to odds on their life. Many individuals that actually shoot people, or get paid for their professional opinion and don't shoot plywood or just animals post on the board and have confirmed the validity of not using bird shot in a HD scenario.

Anything is possible, everything is temporary
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:09:13 AM
Who has this stuff in stock?
Spooky130
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Posted: 5/1/2012 10:39:18 PM
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Who has this stuff in stock?


Ammoman.com had some last weekend but it is gone. ($225/250 shipped) I have heard of one other cop shop out on the West coast but they only sell to LEOs in a couple western states. Hard to believe this is so hard to find.

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