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SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:35:00 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
OK, so got an ammo shipment in from Cabela's today. All Black Hills Ammo, all New (Per Cabela's Website) 223/68, 223/75 and 556/77. Let me start out by saying my rifle is chambered 5.56 so I don't have a true issue. Just kinda feeling like they left some detail out and and mis-labelled items.

First opened the 556/77
Seconds? No one mentioned seconds. Well they will still work fine.

Hum, OK NATO stamped, wait WCC? But the box and website says Black Hills?

Disappointed

Second open the 223/75
OK, Factory New.

Let see the contents, Well that's odd NATO stamped so that means it's 5.56, oh WCC. But these are Factory New Black Hills boxes.

Kinda Angry

While I know I have no true issue, this kinda pisses me off. I didn't truly get what I ordered. Now on to the questions:
Is it typical for Black Hills to pull things like this?
Is the 223/75 really 556/77, the 223/75 cartridges are dirty just like 556/77?
Not related to the issues here, but is the 5.56 77 gr. Match HP and close as I can get to Mk 262 Mod 0
InfiniteGrim
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:40:16 PM
[Last Edit: 3/14/2012 1:43:07 PM by InfiniteGrim]
Real deal MK 262 uses winchester brass


Also just because the brass is stamped NATO doesnt mean its 5.56.
SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:44:48 PM
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Real deal MK 262 uses winchester brass


Wait, But I thought Black Hills Ammo had the contract? So Black Hills makes the MK 262 with the Winchester brass?

BrowardMason
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:47:23 PM
I thought only 62gr M855 5.56 got the NATO stamp. That's what Wideners' website said anyway.
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InfiniteGrim
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:48:59 PM
[Last Edit: 3/14/2012 1:49:34 PM by InfiniteGrim]
Yes.

I am wondering why your ammo doesnt have sealant on it though.

crappy picture, but military issue MK 262
SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:55:27 PM
There's sealant on them, not as much as that pic. I can see the red on them. These facts make me a very happy boy
InfiniteGrim
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:57:15 PM
Does the 5.56 stuff have cannelures?
SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/14/2012 2:00:37 PM
Yep.
leid
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Posted: 3/14/2012 2:09:17 PM
[Last Edit: 3/14/2012 4:10:39 PM by leid]
OP,
Your 5.56MM "white box" is not marked SECONDS so I would think that it is first quality commercial grade MK262 MOD 1 ammunition. I have not previously seen that specific packaging. Correction: You Have SECONDS. The WCC 5.56MM brass is not a mistake; it fulfills the requirement for MK 262 MOD 0/1 to use mil-spec 5.56MM brass. The Black Hills MK 262 MOD 0 cartridge used WCC brass but the 77gr. SMK OTM bullet did not have a cannelure. MK 262 MOD 0 ammunition was further refined into MK 262 MOD 1 ammunition which uses a 77gr. SMK OTM bullet with cannelure. I get much less weight variation with LC 5.56MM brass as compared to WCC 5.56MM brass but both shoot equally tight groups for me. Black Hills has been using Winchester/ Western Cartridge Company (WCC) brass for their factory-new ammunition for a very long time. Hopefully, Jeff will find the time to post more always- interesting information on BH products. Looks like BH now manufactured a 5.56MM 69gr. SMK OTM loading which should be of interest to shooter using 1x9 twist & others. HTH

2002 lot MK 262 MOD 0 with non-cannelured 77gr. SMK OTM bullet over 2003 lot MK 262 MOD 1 with cannelured 77gr. SMK OTM bullet:

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SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/14/2012 3:24:22 PM
I should have noted that the seconds marking was on the side of the box. A few of the cases do have dents and dings in them, so it makes since these might be rejects. I just need to be less anal retentive about this stuff. If these are just MK262 Mod 1 rejects or overruns just put it on the box, you'd probably sell more!
beprepared
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Posted: 3/14/2012 3:28:13 PM
I've bought one box of BH factory new and the head stamp was the same...WCC with a NATO cross. You're in good shape. Well outside of the 2nds advertised as 1sts.
leid
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Posted: 3/14/2012 3:33:03 PM
[Last Edit: 3/14/2012 8:34:04 PM by leid]
Originally Posted By SRacer2000:
I should have noted that the seconds marking was on the side of the box. A few of the cases do have dents and dings in them, so it makes since these might be rejects. I just need to be less anal retentive about this stuff. If these are just MK262 Mod 1 rejects or overruns just put it on the box, you'd probably sell more!


Ah, I misread your original post. You do have SECONDS. The MK 262 MOD 1 SECONDS are capable of a very high level of accuracy. I have fired groups with first quality MK 262 MOD 1 vs SECONDS; no difference in group size that I could see. And I checked the first couple cases of SECONDS I received, all easily passed thru a Wilson cartridge case gage. I don't even bother to do that anymore. No worries.
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jvmcd
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Posted: 3/14/2012 5:14:54 PM
Yes, what you looks consistent with the Black Hills ammo I have purchased. The last couple of years it has been Winchester (WCC) and before that it was Lake City (all red box). I recently purchased a full sealed case of the 5.56/77gr and the label on the case which had the lot# was stamped WCC/SMK. It is probably much easier and cheaper for them to purchase brass from the companies with the NATO certified high-speed manufacturing lines than to purchase and run the brass forming equipment themselves.
StretchMaK
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Posted: 3/14/2012 10:24:07 PM
Originally Posted By leid:
Originally Posted By SRacer2000:
I should have noted that the seconds marking was on the side of the box. A few of the cases do have dents and dings in them, so it makes since these might be rejects. I just need to be less anal retentive about this stuff. If these are just MK262 Mod 1 rejects or overruns just put it on the box, you'd probably sell more!


Ah, I misread your original post. You do have SECONDS. The MK 262 MOD 1 SECONDS are capable of a very high level of accuracy. I have fired groups with first quality MK 262 MOD 1 vs SECONDS; no difference in group size that I could see. And I checked the first couple cases of SECONDS I received, all easily passed thru a Wilson cartridge case gage. I don't even bother to do that anymore. No worries.




Same here, I see no diff in groupe sizes between the "seconds" and new red box stuff. Very good ammo.

Fuck BHO, Mexico and the Black Panther a holes
Unicorn
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Posted: 3/15/2012 4:21:41 AM
Like a lot of companies, Black Hills often gets it brass from wherever it can. In this case they bought Winchester brass.

Just because the brass might be the thicker case normally used for the higher pressure military specced ammo (or "5.56mm NATO") it doesn't mean that it is. It can be loaded to the lower pressure of commercial speced ammo (or ".223 Rem").
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sierraeight
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Posted: 3/15/2012 11:52:01 AM
[Last Edit: 3/15/2012 6:40:48 PM by sierraeight]
SRacer2000,
Thanks for buying Black hills Ammo. If you did not intend to purchase cosmetic seconds, and the Cabela's ad did not identify what they were selling as cosmetics seconds, I see that as a problem. The cosmetic seconds are good ammo, but if you thought you were getting firsts, you should let Cabela's know. I will look into the ad. If you can provide a link to the ad you responded to that would be very helpful. Cosmetic seconds have very minor cosmetic defects that do not affect safety function or performance. they are pulled from the run during our inspection prior to pack. The defects are not even significant enough to meet the military definition of a flaw, and the ammo meets the entire performance specification.

If you contact Cabela's, please let me know their response. If they don't take care of the matter to your satisfaction, we will.

Regarding the use of milspec brass, please do not feel that you have received lower quality. In almost every instance, milspec 556 brass is superior to commercial brass. The military specifications are designed to result in performance soldiers can stake their life on. Military brass is made to harder case head specifications, which allows it to provide superior performance under extreme conditions of heat, pressure, dirty and rough chambers. Additionally, the Military brass we use is all "certified" milspec brass, which means it is subjected to additional quality control measures during production. We receive certifications attesting to the construction, testing and results with each brass lot. We use a lot of brass from Winchester (WCC) and Lake City (LC). Milspec brass is sometimes viewed as lesser quality simply because it is not as bright and shiny. This is intentional. The military does not care for bright shiny brass, which can disclose positions. Also, the milspec brass is not put through the final wash that gives commercial bras the "pretty' look, this is also intentional, because the military prefers to see the annealing mark on the front of the case. This verifies the case did not miss the essential annealing process.

Despite all this, BHA guarantees your satisfaction. If the ammunition you purchased does not meet your satisfaction, give us a call and we will arrange return and refund your money. Your contact will be Carl at 1-800-568-6625. I can be reached at the same number. Please provide the link so we can check into the Cabela's ad to see whether is was misleading or whether they sent you something other than what you ordered.

Added note, The ammunition in boxes labelled 5.56 is 5.56mm ammunition. These are cosmetic seconds from Military MK262 Mod1 production. The ammunition in boxes labeled .223 is loaded to .223 SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specifications. The pressure of the .223 ammunition is within commercial.223 specifications and it is safe for use in either .223 or 5.56mm guns. We used 5.56mm brass in production of this ammunition in order to simplify inventory. The brass is superior quality, and is dimensionally correct for either .223 or 5.56mm ammunition.
MontanaCowboy
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Posted: 3/23/2012 1:55:48 PM
Talk about customer service and standing behind your product. It doesn't get any better than that. My hat is off to you folks at Black Hill Ammo. MC
SRacer2000
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Posted: 3/23/2012 3:07:38 PM
I've been so busy I haven't had a chance to post. But that response is great! BHA will be at the top of my list!

Originally Posted By MontanaCowboy:
Talk about customer service and standing behind your product. It doesn't get any better than that. My hat is off to you folks at Black Hill Ammo. MC


TaylorWSO
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Posted: 3/23/2012 3:20:12 PM

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Like a lot of companies, Black Hills often gets it brass from wherever it can. In this case they bought Winchester brass.

Just because the brass might be the thicker case normally used for the higher pressure military specced ammo (or "5.56mm NATO") it doesn't mean that it is. It can be loaded to the lower pressure of commercial speced ammo (or ".223 Rem").


"Thicker brass" for 5.56 ammo is a myth. See molon's post on the matter.

The 7.62 has thicker brass for the mil stuff vice the commercial, not in the 556 lineup.
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FMJ
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Posted: 3/23/2012 6:00:48 PM
[Last Edit: 3/23/2012 6:03:59 PM by FMJ]
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Does the 5.56 stuff have cannelures?


mine has a slight cannalure with red head sealant


OP

Thats some of the best ammo money can buy.
white,blue,red its all quality ammo
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