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TallPine
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Posted: 10/13/2011 6:41:21 PM
and not the rejected/not to mill spec stuff? Im confused because if it is full millspec, it wouldnt be sold to civilians but the US Govmt right? So how the heck does a civilian but "the real thing" ? Is it a case of you used to be able to, but not anymore?

Reason I ask is that I read posters saying they have stashes of "the real LC stuff" but everything being sold is said to be not to millspec for whatever that means. Curious minds NEED to know.

TIA
Tall
arheart
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Posted: 10/13/2011 6:56:10 PM
[Last Edit: 10/13/2011 6:59:02 PM by arheart]
i dunno what i just bought haha its xm855lc1 ac1 on stripper clips in a 420rnd ammo can with metal us tag. has nato cross and lc stamp. if anyone has comment on this from CTD. it was 138? i believe. everything i could find says its not reject ammo just ovverrun and does not carry the not for duty use tag.
Saddlerocker
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Posted: 10/13/2011 7:13:09 PM
[Last Edit: 10/13/2011 7:17:07 PM by Saddlerocker]
I keep hearing conflicting info on the LC stuff, especially when it comes to the M855 marked "Not For Duty Use" and the same cans that dont have those markings.

But People say that IMI and Privi and even PMC X-TAC (South Korean) is genuine military ammo, because the rules dont apply to ammo from other countries.

I would buy whats cheapest, its all GTG imo

Edit: A rep from SGAmmo has said that the new 420 round cans of M855 on stripper clips that is NOT marked "Not For Duty Use", is just so Federal could get out of pricing contracts, so they changed the designation and removed the not for duty use marking.

But places like Palmetto are stating that it has passed all Government quality control is is not reject ammo like the cans that are marked (not sure how they can sell it to the commercial market though????)

So there is conflicting information all the time, I dont think anyone knows, or can get a straight answer from federal
TallPine
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Posted: 10/13/2011 7:37:18 PM
What I think I understand is that you cannot get the level 1 grade A performance tested stuff from LC becuase they only sell to US Govmt. Just read a post where that same SGAmmo guy write the same thing––only Uncle Same gets the grade A stuff. Soooo, I think that answers my LC question. We civi's just cant get it.

I just bought SGAmmo's 420 round can, great price and shipping, shipped same day too. I am now interested in knowing more about IMI...keep reading that it is better than the stuff WE can get from Lace City/Federal. Anyone know if this is more true than not?
Saddlerocker
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Posted: 10/13/2011 7:45:33 PM
Ive been buying it because of the price and the reviews.

Its hard to tell a difference, alot of people claim better accuracy from IMI, I havnt seen chrono data from this 09 IMI so I dont know if its hotter.

Its at worst just as good as LC, and possibly better. And its cheaper, so its a no brainer for me.
TallPine
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Posted: 10/13/2011 7:53:56 PM
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Ive been buying it because of the price and the reviews.

Its hard to tell a difference, alot of people claim better accuracy from IMI, I havnt seen chrono data from this 09 IMI so I dont know if its hotter.

Its at worst just as good as LC, and possibly better. And its cheaper, so its a no brainer for me.


Gotcha. I bought before checking in here like a dufuss. The Weidners IMI at $.288 per round does sound pretty good. Happy plinking everybody.

Tall
ZagFanatic
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Posted: 10/15/2011 5:52:16 AM
BX, NEX or MCX
PFC
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Posted: 10/15/2011 3:24:27 PM
My past experience with Israeli produced ammo suggests the IMI M855 is as good as we can get.
However weapons can be picky about which ammo they like.
GHPorter
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Posted: 10/15/2011 5:09:07 PM
Originally Posted By ZagFanatic:
BX, NEX or MCX


Unfortunately, not all BXs even offer anything to do with firearms. I currently don't have access to a NEX or MCX, but not all AAFES locations offer ammunition (and very few locations offer guns).

I got a 420 round can of M855 from Academy Sports not long ago, and it is "the real deal." Other places have the same product for less.
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Strongbow
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Posted: 10/15/2011 5:29:04 PM
Originally Posted By TallPine:
and not the rejected/not to mill spec stuff? Im confused because if it is full millspec, it wouldnt be sold to civilians but the US Govmt right? So how the heck does a civilian but "the real thing" ? Is it a case of you used to be able to, but not anymore?

Reason I ask is that I read posters saying they have stashes of "the real LC stuff" but everything being sold is said to be not to millspec for whatever that means. Curious minds NEED to know.

TIA
Tall


More importantly... why bother? M855 is mediocre stuff for defensive use, and the XM855 is fine for practice.
jeepinbanditrider
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Posted: 10/15/2011 5:30:04 PM
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By ZagFanatic:
BX, NEX or MCX


Unfortunately, not all BXs even offer anything to do with firearms. I currently don't have access to a NEX or MCX, but not all AAFES locations offer ammunition (and very few locations offer guns).

I got a 420 round can of M855 from Academy Sports not long ago, and it is "the real deal." Other places have the same product for less.


NAS Fort Worth JRB just opened the counter of a new gun and ammo section in the "outdoor" section that is attached to the Commisary. I'll have to see if they sell the non-reject M855. I know I used to be able to get 30 round mags USGI mags at the clothing store when I was stationed in North Carolina for 9.50 a pop.

BallisticTip
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Posted: 10/15/2011 6:18:38 PM
[Last Edit: 10/15/2011 6:19:07 PM by BallisticTip]
"They're telling us they'd rather die than come out and surrender....so.. They're gonna die..."


Unicorn
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Posted: 10/16/2011 1:03:15 AM
With two shooting (ish) wars, plus the peace keeping and assistance operations going on around the world, along with the amount of rounds going downrange for training, why would there be anything but rejected US made M855 available? When I've gone to the range and the ammo we drew was labeled, "For training use only." Even if the M855A1 is being ordered, there is still a huge amount of M855 needed for just training.
Unless specifically stated, anything posted is my personal opinion and not connected to my employer.

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Smithy
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Posted: 10/16/2011 4:14:32 AM
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
With two shooting (ish) wars, plus the peace keeping and assistance operations going on around the world, along with the amount of rounds going downrange for training, why would there be anything but rejected US made M855 available? When I've gone to the range and the ammo we drew was labeled, "For training use only." Even if the M855A1 is being ordered, there is still a huge amount of M855 needed for just training.


Just because it says for training use only doesnt mean its inferior to the stuff not marked training use. Chances are the military wanted so many marked for training use only so they could easily track and alot rounds for training and downrange use and so there wouldnt be confusion onwhere it went. Who knows the reason but speculating that for "training use only " means subpar ammo is wrong.
jeepinbanditrider
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Posted: 10/16/2011 7:05:18 AM
[Last Edit: 10/16/2011 7:05:55 AM by jeepinbanditrider]
A few years ago I read an article that said just the Army by itself was shooting the equivlant of the entire LC Production capacity just in training every year (at that time somewhere around 1 billion rounds). That was back when we were ordering RADWAY and other NATO spec ammo to make up the shortfall. IIRC we've brought more manufacturing capacity back online so were back to making all of our own.
Unicorn
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Posted: 10/17/2011 3:35:33 AM
[Last Edit: 10/17/2011 11:34:04 PM by Unicorn]
Originally Posted By Smithy:
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
With two shooting (ish) wars, plus the peace keeping and assistance operations going on around the world, along with the amount of rounds going downrange for training, why would there be anything but rejected US made M855 available? When I've gone to the range and the ammo we drew was labeled, "For training use only." Even if the M855A1 is being ordered, there is still a huge amount of M855 needed for just training.


Just because it says for training use only doesnt mean its inferior to the stuff not marked training use. Chances are the military wanted so many marked for training use only so they could easily track and alot rounds for training and downrange use and so there wouldnt be confusion onwhere it went. Who knows the reason but speculating that for "training use only " means subpar ammo is wrong.


So let's just pretend that the military ordered ammo to be specially labeled and packaged, even though you can find both in the stateside ASPs. That still doesn't do anything to answer the question about why there'd by anything but rejects on the commercial market if the plants are running at full or near full capacity just to supply the military.

Let me specify that I mean Lake City production, not Winchester, or even Federal or Speer if they ever start selling it (yes, I know ATK runs the LC ammo plant)
Unless specifically stated, anything posted is my personal opinion and not connected to my employer.

Store 10AM to 6PM Tue-Sat Ph: 253-722-1966 FAX 253-722-1967
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The_Gooch
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Posted: 10/17/2011 9:55:44 AM
The Winchester Ranger M855 for law enforcement. It appears to be first rate production and not rejects.

For the price though, I would stick with Prvi, IMI, or PMC X-Tac.
FMJ
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Posted: 10/18/2011 10:25:26 PM
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
Originally Posted By TallPine:
and not the rejected/not to mill spec stuff? Im confused because if it is full millspec, it wouldnt be sold to civilians but the US Govmt right? So how the heck does a civilian but "the real thing" ? Is it a case of you used to be able to, but not anymore?

Reason I ask is that I read posters saying they have stashes of "the real LC stuff" but everything being sold is said to be not to millspec for whatever that means. Curious minds NEED to know.

TIA
Tall


More importantly... why bother? M855 is mediocre stuff for defensive use, and the XM855 is fine for practice.


+1
YHVH
lapster
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Posted: 10/20/2011 6:38:06 PM
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Ive been buying it because of the price and the reviews.

Its hard to tell a difference, alot of people claim better accuracy from IMI, I havnt seen chrono data from this 09 IMI so I dont know if its hotter.

Its at worst just as good as LC, and possibly better. And its cheaper, so its a no brainer for me.




Here's your Chrono Data:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/519740_Attack_of_the__M193__Clones__Part_Two___M855_Comparison_.html
Saddlerocker
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Posted: 10/20/2011 7:29:36 PM
[Last Edit: 10/20/2011 7:49:43 PM by Saddlerocker]
Originally Posted By lapster:
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Ive been buying it because of the price and the reviews.

Its hard to tell a difference, alot of people claim better accuracy from IMI, I havnt seen chrono data from this 09 IMI so I dont know if its hotter.

Its at worst just as good as LC, and possibly better. And its cheaper, so its a no brainer for me.




Here's your Chrono Data:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/519740_Attack_of_the__M193__Clones__Part_Two___M855_Comparison_.html


Thanks, for some reason I thought all of those tests were of earlier IMI
I see the IMI 193 and M855 tests are 09' headstamp

Edit: I was looking at this thread where he never updated with velocity for the 09', but your link does show it
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/500730_.html&page=1%EF%BF%BD
The IMI in the M193 thread is all 09 headstamp also, and shows above average accuracy and average velocity
littlecricket
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Posted: 10/25/2011 8:30:38 PM
I use to work at lake city... there is no millspec vs civilian. ... the stuff that gets rejected is due to quality control... IE if 10 crates of ammo is randomly checked and say their threshold for finding bad ammo is .3% and they find 4 rounds out of 1000 they reject the lot. the lot then goes back and gets resorted and sold civilian.

To be honest I always thought the "civilian" stuff was actually better because it had gone through the process twice.

I don't know what the thresholds are and this obviously isn't the exact process they go through, it is much more rigorous, but trust me you aren't gaining anything looking for 'milspec'. 855 is 855 is 855 if its from LC.
Chissel
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Posted: 10/26/2011 12:51:16 PM
Sorry if this is off track, but it is LC related;

littlecricker or anyone else that might know,

Does LC still produce M193 at its facility or is it strictly M855/855a1 now?

Thanks
Rojodiablo
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Posted: 10/27/2011 1:25:02 AM
Originally Posted By littlecricket:
I use to work at lake city... there is no millspec vs civilian. ... the stuff that gets rejected is due to quality control... IE if 10 crates of ammo is randomly checked and say their threshold for finding bad ammo is .3% and they find 4 rounds out of 1000 they reject the lot. the lot then goes back and gets resorted and sold civilian.

To be honest I always thought the "civilian" stuff was actually better because it had gone through the process twice.

I don't know what the thresholds are and this obviously isn't the exact process they go through, it is much more rigorous, but trust me you aren't gaining anything looking for 'milspec'. 855 is 855 is 855 if its from LC.


THIS. Thanks for hitting what I was going to say; rejections can be for many things. Water resistance, accuracy, speed, energy, on and on and on.
OPossumTX
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Posted: 10/28/2011 4:41:29 PM
[Last Edit: 10/28/2011 4:42:18 PM by OPossumTX]
I figured that we are seeing M855 available now because services are switching over to the new 855a1, GREEN bullet. Yea, they got the lead out!

The new stuff supposedly has much better penetration and higher velocity. I wonder how it will do at a distance though. I suppose a bunch of volunteers are finding out right now.

Have FUN!
O'