Well....we've all heard about it.   After turning over with the outgoing unit here in Afghanistan, I was going through our Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) and happen to come upon thousands of rounds of this stuff.  It's all linked in 200rnd SAWS boxes.  It does indeed have a black tip.  I took the metal jacket off the projo...and low and behold the inner portion of the round has a much larger steel "penetrator" inside compared to the M855.   The round itself is the same length ast M855....just completely different inside.

Pictures to follow in a few hours.

Maj

want

DROOL....  

Until you get your pics up.......  

Maj-
Way to go, thanks for the info. Hey, be safe out there and thanks for your service. My oldest just got back from flying in his PaveHawk over in the sandbox and there were many sleepless nights until he made it back. See if you can liberate some of that black tip stuff...or better yet, use it on the BGs

tag

Who can I email pics to?  I need someone to post pics for me.  Our .mil servers won't allow web photo servers.

If someone wants to help out...just email me.

Thanks

ETA:  SENT!  Thanks Osprey

Godspeed, my brother.



Semper Fi
 

tag

thanks major for the pics.... sure looks like a nasty round.......but "me want some"........

stay safe there.......

Thanks for sharing.

Interesting headstamp on the M995 as well.

Range report please.

Stay safe and thanks for serving.

Yeah...I don't understand the headstamp.  Either it read "C8 or CB" then "06".  Additional "lines" are pressed into the headstamp as well.

Could be so you can tell the difference from regular ball in the dark.

Major,
   I can help with a little history. The Swedish rounds that were adopted by the U.S. military as M993 & M995 were developed by Forenede FabriksVerken (FFV in Karlsborg, Sweden)) in the late 80s. The earliest headstamps are  "070" until '90 then "FFV" in '91. FFV merged with Carl Gustav/Bofors in '91-'92  who started headstamping the 5.56mm & 7.62mm AP cartridges "CG". Raufoss of MK 211 MOD 0 .50 Cal HEIAP fame also merged into the CG/ Bofors group in 1993. Then Carl Gustav/Bofors and several other Nordic munitions manufacturer's all merged into NAMMO in '98. NAMMO kept the "CG" headstamp. The U.S. type classified 7.62MM M993 AP cartridge 02/16/96 and 5.56mm M995 AP cartridge 03/29/96. What you have is M995 manufactured by NAMMO in 2006. I would think that the lines on the cartridge heads are probably part of a NAMMO quality control system similar to the SCAMP dots on LC M855 cartridge heads, but don't have a definite answer yet.
                                                                                      Best of luck putting them where they belong!

Look for AA69 (p/n 12991890) for M995 on 10rd strippers. It is fairly new.

leid,

Thanks for info.  Just to show you how much I know about it.   You are an "Ammo Jedi."  I'll keep an eye open....I'm also being told by our Bn Gunner that the Black TIp isn't to be shot in M4's for some reason.  He wasn't sure.  Maybe has to do something with barrel wear?  It's only to be shot in our SAWs.  Does this make sense?  It doesn't to me.  Seems the jacket on the round itself would interact with our barrels the same as the M855 round.  Strange.

If that was true the AA69 DODIC wouldn't come on strippers.  God bless Gunners, but they're not immune from bad gouge.

M995 is certified to be shot through the M4 and M16 as well as the SAW.

It groups half the size of M855.

Each bullet weighs a nominal 53-55 grains and moves out the same speed as M193/M16A1 Ball.

Shoot Hajjis.

Yep, some info at these sites:

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m993.htm

Be safe, and thanks for thinking of us and giving us some interesting ammo pr0n to look at. Now we need a terminal ballistics report from the field.

This.

Thanks, man!

I don't guess there's a snow balls chance in hell that we'll ever be able to purchase the projectiles.

and a from me.

Many, many thanks Sir.

Major,
  Email NAMMO to get it straight from them but I have never heard of any restriction on M16/M4 use. AFAIK the  M995 jacket is Tombac soft steel just like the M993 7.62mm AP rounds packaged in boxes for rifle use (AA03 p/n 12972339) as well as on links. Virtually all LC M856 tracer &  most current LC M80 7.62mm ball also uses soft steel jacketed bullets. And both these types can be fired in rifle barrels without undo wear especially in a chrome lined mil-spec barrel. M995 is indeed reported to be very accurate as stated above. A range session with an accurized SPR would be very enlightening.  Another rumor circulated is that M995 penetrates armor better at longer distance, which I do not understand unless the tungsten penetrator is fragmenting on impact with armor at higher velocity. That is above my pay grade and is yet another question for NAMMO.


Here is a sectioned M995 cartridge with a little better view of the Tombac steel jacket and the tungsten penetrator core. The core is extremely hard at a reported 1450 (Hv) but it is never in contact with the rifling. I just don't see any potential problem like the USMC reportedly experienced with WCC 7.62 SLAP.


EDIT: SEE CORRECTIONS IN LATER POST: M995 BULLET JACKET IS NON-MAGNETIC GILDED METAL, NOT STEEL

Great detail on the background and some pics as well.  I've got some friends who are over there in AFG right now and they come across it from time to time, mostly in the SAW boxes.  It really, in their opinion, does not do much difference on wound potential than the M855 rd will do.  It just goes right through something until it hits bone or whatever, and keeps on going.  They are having more succes on putting people on the ground with 1st rd hits with the Mk 262 Mod 1, but the AP is good for vehicles, barriers, etc.  And, if Hassim happens to be wearing a vest with plates in it, at least he would get his bell rung when this hits him square in the chest.  Overall, a good thread, as this is the most detailed info I've seen in awhile on the subject rd.

Now that is a hell of a PIF

Thanks for the info, Maj. Keep your head down, and thank you for serving.

Leid, there is no such thing as "tombak steel". As you can clearly see in the pic of the sectioned projectile, the jacket is NOT steel, or even plated steel. Tombak is simply a European term used for what we call Gilding Metal, which is a specific copper alloy used to make projectile jackets. The jacket here is Tombak or Gilding Metal, no steel involved... I have one of the 7.62x39mm AP rounds of the same exact design and it is definately not steel either...

As for the headstamp, the two radial lines could have meaning or have no meaning at all. I will run this by my collector friends that specialize in this caliber and see what they say. Radial lines are often peculiar to the Scandinavian countries' headstamps, but usually to seperate different elements of the headstamp. Here the lines seem to take the place of otherwise missing lot or type elements.

As for better penetration at longer ranges, I have heard the same thing said about other AP, particularly .30-06 M-2 AP. The theory is that after about 100 yards, the projectile has fully stabilized and is spinning as concentricly as possible. This is said to slightly increase the penetration. Can't sai if it is true or not, but I read it on the internet... ;)

The sad part of this whole issue is that the US has to buy this ammo from overseas... Do a google search and look for the Fiscal Year appropriations for these AP rounds. After you do tha math, you will see that the taxpayer is coughing up $2.00 - $3.00 PER ROUND for this ammunition. Money well spent if it does it's job and protects our troops, but dang it is pricy!

1DD

Maj-
Outstanding find and some great info from the other arfcommers. Good pics too. Looks like that M995 is shorter than the M856 tracers. Be safe out there and come back home in one piece.

Fellas....thanks for the thoughtful comments and I'm glad to add some info to the mystical M995 round.   I'll keep my eyes open for the new 5.56mm, 62gr round that is supposed to replace our beloved Green Tip.  I believe their are 2.5million rounds in theater now being tested for its "anti-flash" type powder and terminal ballistics.

Slightly O/T but here are the wave tops and is also my initial personal assesment after being on the deck the first 30 days.  Sorry for the shotgun blast of info.  Bottom line, The PEOPLE are the center of gravity. If we win them, we win the war.  We can't kill enough "Taliban" to win the war.  It's not going to happen.  We NEED the people.  This is not Iraq.  The Marines are doing some great work over here and performing magnificently with what we have to work with.  It's difficult to partner with a country that is 300-400 years behind us in technology and holding a different ideology, but I don't blame them. "You don't know, what you don't know."  Right now is a pivotal point in time....almost in limbo.  The country is tetering and it is the time we stay even more vigilant. We are fighting a couple of different type of "Taliban."  The first, are the "hard liners."  These are the guys that fight and die to the death if you can trap them.  They usually come and go from AO to AO, living off the people.  Never spending too much time in once place for obvious reasons.  They are also the type to hire most of their dirty work to be done by the other type of Taliban I'll talk about in a bit.  These guys are also the type to hire smart, local guys to build and emplace IEDs.  Each AO has their own IED "head honcho" if you will.  The guy that makes them, but not necessarily emplaces the IEDs.  The other type of "Taliban" is the "part time" or local fighter.  He doesn't necessarily give a shit which side wins, he just wants to survive day to day and make a few extra bucks, or not wake up with his throat cut by the 1st type of Taliban I spoke of earlier.  These are the guys we usually kill on a day to day basis.  These are the low hang'n fruit if you will...that either emplace the IEDs, or are pulling the triggers in the daily small arms engagements.  I could go into further details..but I'm sure you guys get the picture.

As far as weapons, ammo and gear goes....we have top notch stuff, almost too much.  We aren't hurting for much.  It's all here in theater....it's just getting it from point A to point B and into the right hands (is the difficult part) due to the IED threat.  "They" own the roads in AO South (Helmand Province) for sure.  We can't freely drive on them without the constant threat of IEDs.  The men are happy with the M4/A4 series of weapons.  Our Bn is equipped about 1/2 and 1/2 of both M4a3/a4 rifles.  Our Snipers are shooting the M40A5 (7.62) and we also have the KAC Mk11/12.  We use the MK262 round in the Mk12 exclusively.  Of course the .50cal SASR is here too.  99% of the ammo we are issued is M855 and the guys are happy with it and it's capabilities or just don't know the difference. I have not heard of, or seen any bad guys getting up off the ground after taking a round of M855...but I will keep my ears open.  The round is doing it's job contrary to what you hear around the internet.  Most Marines can shoot their asses off....but don't really understand "what" they are shooting out the end of their muzzles.  They don't need to.  They just need to be able to put steel on steel so to speak.  Most Marines are not "Gun Guys".....so don't take interest in this stuff like we here on the ammo forum do. The Marines are carrying a combat load of 180-210 rnds on their body...with extra ammo in the vehicles if needed.  All of our rifles have RCO's mounted and most are running the Matech BUIS as issued.  The PEQ16A's and the issued GRIP POD are also mounted on almost every rifle in the Bn. As far as PPE....we wear the MTV or Scalable Plate Carrier...depending on mission of the day.

I need to rap up...and I don't want Zhuk to thump me on the head....so if you all have any other questions related to any crap I've mentioned....feel free to IM me.

Take care,

Maj

Thank you for your insight and service.  Happy Veterans day to you and stay safe.

1098cya

Thank you for your service.



That's one hell of a round.



DO WANT.

Again, thank you for your service, stay safe, and good hunting!!!

+!

AWESOME!

Thanks, MAJ, for ALL!

Semper Fi Major, God speed and God bless.

Thanks for your service.

If you or your men need anything, you let us know.

Warmest regards,

LABlackRifle

Major,
Reference 1DD's post above, I took a harder look at both the 5.56mm and 7.62mm Swedish AP rounds. Both types have bullets that are magnetic. Since elemental tungsten is non-ferrous/non-magnetic, I thought the jacket must be steel. It is NOT steel but a non-magnetic gilded metal jacket just as DD1 has stated. The M995 5.56mm AP tungsten penetrators themselves apparently have just enough ferrous metal (iron/steel) in them to attract a strong magnet. The M993 7.62 AP round is highly magnetic & will easily hang from the magnet but the M995 5.56mm AP round will not. The M995 penetrator itself has barely enough ferrous material to stick to a side of the magnet. See below pic of both type rounds and 5.56mm penetrator sticking to a strong magnet placed vertically on a metal door.  Both M993 & M995 AP rounds should be very gentle to the bore of even a precision rifle. Best of luck!

Major,

Thanks for the explaination of what's goin over there. It's a helpless feeling over here, especially when the word comes down more troops are needed and.....nuthin.  I've told you this before and I'm sure I'm not alone, we sorta live vicariously thru you...so when you tell us what's goin on, it's like therapy. Makes me feel like I have a little more than a clue as to WTF is going on.
Thanks for your service, thanks for your updates, and thanks for keeping us ammo junkies happy with the thrill of stuff we probably have no chance of ever getting our hands on. Stay safe my friend.

Huge +1, thanks for the insight in your last post.

God Bless, stay safe.

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing that. Now just another thing I can add to my "want but will never have" list.

I would love to purchase some of the projos....not that I'd roll my own or anything  

Thanks for posting those pics!! You've got the real deal alright!
I think you should at least get to bring back a couple of the tungsten cores from these rounds as a souvenir.

Stay safe and thank you for your service to our country!

-Allen

Awesome posts. Thanks for posting, and thanks for being there.


I have a question: is anyone over there using M193 now?

Also, what does the ammo look like that is used in the AKs?

(47 or 74, good guy or bad...what is their ammo? )

thank you for the post, pics, and your service.

This is my 4th combat tour since OIF 1.  I've done 3 in Iraq and currently on my 4th here in AFG.  I've never seen M193 in either theater.  It's rumored on ARFCOM that it exists in the AirForce or support units still using the M16A1s....but I've never personaly seen a post where someone was using it.  The USMC phased out M193 years ago....around the 1st Gulf War in 1989-1990.  It went away when the M16A2 was first issued.  Again, I'm just speaking from my Marine Corps perspective.  I'm sure Army National Guard units were using M16A1's after the Gulf War much longer than we were.


As far as AK ammo goes....I believe it comes from the Tula Company for the ANA and ANP....same manufactuerer as Wolf.  The Taliban use whatever they can get there hands on.  Chinese, Russion, Eastern European and etc....

Hope this helps.

Maj

Very informative. Again, thanks for your service. You guys rock!

boner time.

Awesome

We used Black Tip in 2005. We were told not to use in in our m4's. Of course 5 mins later we were delinking the ammo and loading it up in mags.

I can neither confirm or deny that I might have a few mags loaded with Black Tip now.

Did they give any technical reason why, or just "don't do that"?

I was in a line unit. There was nothing "technical" about us. I still find it amazing how effective we were. At that time, we were some of the best. But my god did people have no clue how shit worked. I remember my first time getting my ass chewed from our boot 2nd Lt. I was on a range trying to see how accurate I could be with a m249. I was shooting single rounds at about 500-600 yards. He starting screaming that I was going to burn up the sear if I didn't start doing the standard 7 rd burst. We all looked at him like . Just one example of many. It was as if we were a bunch of chickens with our heads chopped off, but with machine guns.