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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:12:10 PM EDT
[#1]
It's been done by custom builders before.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 5:02:06 PM EDT
[#2]
I love to buy one if someone produces a complete upper. I'll will likely be very pricy due to the R&D.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 10:54:56 PM EDT
[#3]
The major difficulty is fitting it in the envelope of an AR upper.....
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Posted: 12/2/2016 2:51:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The major difficulty is fitting it in the envelope of an AR upper..... I wonder if it might end up easier (read: less expensive), to do a dedicated upper, that still interfaces with the standard AR lower and barrel. Hell, if you're going to all this trouble, you'd want a nice left-side non-recip charging handle anyway, right? 
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Posted: 12/2/2016 4:09:21 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if it might end up easier (read: less expensive), to do a dedicated upper, that still interfaces with the standard AR lower and barrel. Hell, if you're going to all this trouble, you'd want a nice left-side non-recip charging handle anyway, right? This When doing something that far from the original design, there really isn't any reason to stick with a standard upper. A custom upper will also allow for a cleaner design. |
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Posted: 12/2/2016 5:37:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if it might end up easier (read: less expensive), to do a dedicated upper, that still interfaces with the standard AR lower and barrel. Hell, if you're going to all this trouble, you'd want a nice left-side non-recip charging handle anyway, right? MP5 Upper on M16 lower. Best of both worlds.  MP16 upper prototype |
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Posted: 12/2/2016 6:53:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Not worth the candle, and if it were, there'd be people doing it already.
MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Posted: 12/2/2016 7:30:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if it might end up easier (read: less expensive), to do a dedicated upper, that still interfaces with the standard AR lower and barrel. Hell, if you're going to all this trouble, you'd want a nice left-side non-recip charging handle anyway, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The major difficulty is fitting it in the envelope of an AR upper..... I wonder if it might end up easier (read: less expensive), to do a dedicated upper, that still interfaces with the standard AR lower and barrel. Hell, if you're going to all this trouble, you'd want a nice left-side non-recip charging handle anyway, right?
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Posted: 12/2/2016 7:34:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not worth the candle, and if it were, there'd be people doing it already. MHO, YMMV, etc. Up until a few months ago, I would have agreed with you. But USPSA's PCC division is exploding, and Wilson, JP, and SIG are all selling the hell out of high-priced 9mm guns. |
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Posted: 12/2/2016 11:05:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Well, I have both an AR 9mm SBR and a HK MP5K PDW sear gun that started life as a NIB SP89. There is no comparison. The HK wins hands down. As a matter of fact, this HK is probably the last gun I'd ever sell because it is THE perfect PDW.
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Posted: 12/3/2016 7:42:07 AM EDT
[#11]
As well as the capital investment expense for tooling up such an upper, keep in mind that one of the reasons that the MP5 lost favor with U.S, police departments was that, as well as being expensive, the manual of arms is not what most shooters are familiar with and comfortable using. Then there's magazines. Would the AR9/MP5 hybrid use MP5, 9mm Colt style, Glock, Beretta, or other type magazines or would the manufacturer(s) need to tool up lowers for all options?
Admittedly, such things are possible, but just because something is possible doesn't mean that they can be made and sold at a profit. The Ingram platform SABRE project comes to mind. If any folks do pursue such an endeavor, I wish them all the best. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 8:59:56 AM EDT
[#12]
I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Not saying I speak for all but the ergos and modularity the AR offers are second to none. The recoil impulse on a roller lock is so much better than a blowback system. And I can stick with my SBR'd lowers? Sign me up.
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Posted: 12/3/2016 3:05:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Not saying I speak for all but the ergos and modularity the AR offers are second to none. The recoil impulse on a roller lock is so much better than a blowback system. And I can stick with my SBR'd lowers? Sign me up. As far as recoil goes, I have no problem with the recoil from a blowback 9 mm AR when there's a "9 mm" buffer (two-piece, all steel, about $25) or a H3 buffer, about $40; both weigh about 5 1/2 oz. I've never tried one, but I've read that the newer hydraulic buffers work very well and now have a very long life, about $120. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 5:28:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As far as recoil goes, I have no problem with the recoil from a blowback 9 mm AR when there's a "9 mm" buffer (two-piece, all steel, about $25) or a H3 buffer, about $40; both weigh about 5 1/2 oz. I've never tried one, but I've read that the newer hydraulic buffers work very well and now have a very long life, about $120. MHO, YMMV, etc. I run a Slash's 12 oz buffer. Overall recoil isn't bad but it's a bunch of mass moving around, especially vs. a 5.56 AR setup. I also run suppressed so port noise is much higher on a 9mm blowback build. No doubt though a HK style style upper would offer a smoother and quieter host. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 9:25:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryI would be all over an upper like this. Is there any more information on the upper in the video? |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 9:37:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would be all over an upper like this. Is there any more information on the upper in the video? Builder/poster reported that it was a prototype they made, and not likely to ever see the light of day as a commercial product. They're fun to fiddle with, and this is the second or third time I've seen someone build either an AR upper, or a mixmaster firearm based on an MP5 receiver, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a market to support such a thing's commercial development and production. If you want one, find a custom builder and pay them to get busy for you; or contact the builder(s) and offer to buy their prototype. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:40:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Someone should just copy or adapt the Sig MPX upper to mate with AR15 lowers. I want a folding stock for my 9mm AR.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 10:48:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Main issue with MP5/AR clone is not doing it, it's getting the parts to build it, WAY more than the cost of (perhaps 3x) the cost of an AR.
As pistol cal is my thing, perhaps this year will bring me the time an capital to explore several ideas I have . |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 11:32:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Main issue with MP5/AR clone is not doing it, it's getting the parts to build it, WAY more than the cost of (perhaps 3x) the cost of an AR. As pistol cal is my thing, perhaps this year will bring me the time an capital to explore several ideas I have . I get that. For me I'd be OK. I'm so heavily invested in the AR platform and like the ergos too much to spend money on a dedicated HK roller. I'm also no purist so I would be interested in the hybrid. An upper that I can slap on one of my SBRd lowers is great vs starting over with a HK clone. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:41:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone should just copy or adapt the Sig MPX upper to mate with AR15 lowers. I want a folding stock for my 9mm AR. It sounds like you just want a Sig MPX...? Maybe I'm missing something, but why waste the time and resources shoe-horning an MPX upper onto an AR lower and then spend the money on a folding stock adapter when you could just buy the MPX outright? |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 1:53:05 PM EDT
[#21]
I for one would love to have some sort of delayed blowback AR9 upper. It doesn't have to be an H&K based system either.
But for it to be done "right", IMHO, it would still need to use about 90% of off the shelf AR9 components for it to commercially successful. Maybe just a proprietary upper, BCG and barrel. That would give all the DIY's the means of spec'ing out everything else. With USPSA's new PCC division, and enterprising guy could make a fortune. The guy that brings to market a simple AR9 upper that consists nothing more than an upper, BCG and barrel that has proven to feed reliably will win the day. The gamers will want to configure everything else to their liking. (Hand guards etc....) What the gamers want! 1) Non-recipricating side chargers. 2) Easier loading on a closed bolt. 3) 40+rds mags. 4) Ability to use fancy triggers. As to why I think the Colt pattern will win out over other systems, it is purely for the vast aftermarket. Us gamers like customization! That said, as mentioned above, the Sig MPX is a viable choice for sure. As their are already folks making mag extensions and other specialty parts. But all that comes at a cost, and while gamers will spend the big bucks, they can be a frugal bunch and expect above average performance for dollars spent. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 2:29:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Yeah it would be cool to use your existing sbr lowers, but I doubt it's going to save you money. A complete upper would have to be less than $1500 for it to even be a consideration.
MPX MP5 Scorpion Countless glock and colt mag options Pick one and be happy. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 2:30:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I for one would love to have some sort of delayed blowback AR9 upper. It doesn't have to be an H&K based system either. Back when I had a VZ58, I always wondered about adapting that system to a pistol cal. Mostly due to similarities with Walther p38/ beretta 92 actions. Sure the barrel wouldn't be moving so you'd need a gas system like the rifles, but it's a nice small system too. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 6:02:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Okay, I'm way out in space thinking out loud here...
Would it be possible to engineer some sort of unlock-delaying device into the exsisting housing for the forward assist? Almost like a "reverse" forward assist? Rough thinking: a single roller (or even a ball bearing) that sits halfway into a recess in the bolt (when in battery), and halfway into the FA cavity. The cavity is capped, and contains what basically becomes a big detent spring. Upon firing, the bolt starts back, but can't proceed until the bearing/roller gets cammed out of the way. The force of the spring slows the bolt's rearward travel, but doesn't speed its forward travel. Once "tuned", this should mean that the bolt could be significantly lighter without unlocking early. It also would utilize damn near all of the original AR parts. I'm way out of my lane here, just a trigger puller... but hey, it's an idea.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 6:19:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah it would be cool to use your existing sbr lowers, but I doubt it's going to save you money. A complete upper would have to be less than $1500 for it to even be a consideration. MPX MP5 Scorpion Countless glock and colt mag options Pick one and be happy. For me it isn't about saving money (although if I can it would be great). It's about getting the ideal system. I love the flexibility and ergos of the AR platform. What I don't like is the weight, mass, and perceived recoil of a 9mm AR. A smooth roller lock system with AR ergos and modularity is a real winner. The beauty of the SBR AR lower is the ability to run whatever you want and not be "stuck" with anything. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 6:47:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would it be possible to engineer some sort of unlock-delaying device into the exsisting housing for the forward assist? Almost like a "reverse" forward assist? Rough thinking: a single roller (or even a ball bearing) that sits halfway into a recess in the bolt (when in battery), and halfway into the FA cavity. The cavity is capped, and contains what basically becomes a big detent spring. Upon firing, the bolt starts back, but can't proceed until the bearing/roller gets cammed out of the way. The force of the spring slows the bolt's rearward travel, but doesn't speed its forward travel. It's been done on the 22lr adapter frames - referred to as the "ball detent mod". Same principle would apply - though the frame rails of a conversion assembly are steel, and trying to set up a bearing detent in the FA cavity would pit steel against aluminum. Maybe a steel FA cavity insert? |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 7:16:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been done on the 22lr adapter frames - referred to as the "ball detent mod". Same principle would apply - though the frame rails of a conversion assembly are steel, and trying to set up a bearing detent in the FA cavity would pit steel against aluminum. Maybe a steel FA cavity insert? Thanks, I didn't know that we're doing that sort of thing with .22 bolts. Taking my idea a bit further... if the spring tension could be be externally adjustable, not only could it be fine-tuned, but it would be possible to do a selectable "bolt lock" that would keep the action closed until manually cycled, making for super quiet suppressed shots.... |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 2:29:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks, I didn't know that we're doing that sort of thing with .22 bolts. Taking my idea a bit further... if the spring tension could be be externally adjustable, not only could it be fine-tuned, but it would be possible to do a selectable "bolt lock" that would keep the action closed until manually cycled, making for super quiet suppressed shots.... You actually maybe on to something. <----Just a trigger puller too! |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 11:59:51 AM EDT
[#29]
As someone who currently owns neither, would the P9 rollers give a good fit size wise over the MP5 stuff? P9 rollers with Glock mags...
I think either way the thing would be designing it to take some regular commercial roller product from some other field, to reduce proprietary parts. |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 1:59:38 PM EDT
[#30]
I don't know if this has been offered or discussed before, but wouldn't it be possible to develop a drop-in buffer/spring combination that had some sort of delay mechanism built into it?
It sure seems like there is an opportunity to develop something within the existing envelope, rather than re-invent the wheel. It seems like it would be possible to develop a buffer/spring combination that is as long as the buffer tube and hydraulic, so it could be tuned to stay closed longer through a restriction in fluid flow for the initial travel and then function as normal after that. I imagine it would look like a coil over shock for a car and would drop in an existing buffer tube. If this isn't feasible, I have to imagine that there's a way to re-design the bolt to work in conjunction with it either through the addition of a trip lever/rod or something similar - in a sense, you would be "locking" the buffer to delay the blowback action instead of locking the bolt... |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 3:08:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know if this has been offered or discussed before, but wouldn't it be possible to develop a drop-in buffer/spring combination that had some sort of delay mechanism built into it? It sure seems like there is an opportunity to develop something within the existing envelope, rather than re-invent the wheel. It seems like it would be possible to develop a buffer/spring combination that is as long as the buffer tube and hydraulic, so it could be tuned to stay closed longer through a restriction in fluid flow for the initial travel and then function as normal after that. I imagine it would look like a coil over shock for a car and would drop in an existing buffer tube. If this isn't feasible, I have to imagine that there's a way to re-design the bolt to work in conjunction with it either through the addition of a trip lever/rod or something similar - in a sense, you would be "locking" the buffer to delay the blowback action instead of locking the bolt... Okay... you could probably develop a roller-lock system small enough to fit into a standard buffer tube. I've been trying to shoehorn it into the upper, but you're smarter than I am. You could keep everything on the the gun the same (except possibly take weight off of the bolt). All the magic happens inside the buffer tube. You have a housing with recess for the rollers, a small "roller head" incorporating an MP5-like wedge, a pistol-sized recoil spring on a guide rod, and a polymer buffer on the end. Round fires, bolt pushes on roller head, rollers delay movement long enough for pressure to drop, pressure drops, moving assembly moves back under recoil, returns forward under spring pressure, rollers "lock" back into recesses. Rinse. Repeat. |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 5:25:51 PM EDT
[#32]
The only issue there is that most folks want roller locks to get rid of the long tube.
If you could make do with a single roller, perhaps you could make a charging handle that serves as the track for it. Think something like the 22lr conversions but with a heavier bolt that uses some sort of delay system when interacting with a charging handle channel. Of course you'd need to make sure the handle itself wouldn't move during this, but I'm no tech, that's someone else job! |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 6:06:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only issue there is that most folks want roller locks to get rid of the long tube. There's a ton of new PCC shooters that just want to take a half-pound or more off of the reciprocating mass and get a softer (read: faster) shooting gun. I'm one of them.
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Posted: 12/5/2016 7:03:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Cz-52 also used a roller locking mechanism.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 10:57:37 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know if this has been offered or discussed before, but wouldn't it be possible to develop a drop-in buffer/spring combination that had some sort of delay mechanism built into it? It sure seems like there is an opportunity to develop something within the existing envelope, rather than re-invent the wheel. It seems like it would be possible to develop a buffer/spring combination that is as long as the buffer tube and hydraulic, so it could be tuned to stay closed longer through a restriction in fluid flow for the initial travel and then function as normal after that. I imagine it would look like a coil over shock for a car and would drop in an existing buffer tube. If this isn't feasible, I have to imagine that there's a way to re-design the bolt to work in conjunction with it either through the addition of a trip lever/rod or something similar - in a sense, you would be "locking" the buffer to delay the blowback action instead of locking the bolt... See, for one example, U.S, Patent No. 6,758,126. Also, related to other comments, it may be worth noting that the bolt in the HK MP5 has tungsten powder inside (to reduce bolt bounce - similar to a 'dead blow' hammer). See, U.S. Patent No. 3,283,435. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 2:36:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See, for one example, U.S, Patent No. 6,758,126. That patent was filed >13 years ago and nothing has been done with it. Does it expire after 14 years or 20 years? I don't know enough about patent law, but if it doesn't expire soon, maybe there is an opportunity to do something similar without hydraulic fluid - maybe a mechanical linkage - or maybe utilizing one chamber instead of 2 - that would differentiate it enough from that patent. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 5:00:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That patent was filed >13 years ago and nothing has been done with it. Does it expire after 14 years or 20 years? I don't know enough about patent law, but if it doesn't expire soon, maybe there is an opportunity to do something similar without hydraulic fluid - maybe a mechanical linkage - or maybe utilizing one chamber instead of 2 - that would differentiate it enough from that patent. On the USPTO Website, the Status shown is: "Patent Expired Due to NonPayment of Maintenance Fees", 08-06-2012. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 7:42:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Not saying I speak for all but the ergos and modularity the AR offers are second to none. The recoil impulse on a roller lock is so much better than a blowback system. And I can stick with my SBR'd lowers? Sign me up. +1000 I've been dreaming for a 9mm roller locked upper for the AR/M16 platform for a long time. I used to compete in sub gun competitions and for years tried to get a Colt 9mm to run as smooth as an MP5 and the closest I could get was a ramped bolt, no weight and a Olympic pneumatic A2 buffer. Those buffers end up leaking and crap out. I'm now an FFL/SOT and have an MP5 and full auto Sig MPX. Before the MPX came out, I worked with another manufacturer and we did a prototype piston operated 9mm upper. We used a 5.45x39 bolt which has the right size bolt face for 9mm. We had to do custom 9mm barrel since now you need to have a barrel extension. The problem we had was with erradic ejection. We thought that you must have a fixed ejector to reliably kick the brass out. It just wasn't feasible to do major surgery to the bolt and carrier and we both were busy making other products so we dropped it. I had high hopes for the MPX but I personally don't think it suppresses that well. As you mentioned, an alternative that would work on any AR lower would have been much better. Sig would have made so much more $$ if they made the MPX work on a standard AR lower. So many people that have SBR's could pick one up without having to register another gun. As you mentioned, I like the ergos of the AR better than the MP5 as well as the modularity. Going with roller locked, a manufacturer should be able to use any of the off the shelf AR barrels out there but will most likely have to make a new upper. Many years ago, I used to have a Calico 9mm which is delayed roller blowback and is mainly polymer. I think it had some sort of metal cage insert in the polymer upper. I've often thought about getting the Calico bolt and that metal cage for the rollers and see if those parts could be used to fabricate an upper. Regardless, I think it is totally do-able and as others have mentioned with all the popularity of PCC's these days this would sell like crazy. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 12:11:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1000 I've been dreaming for a 9mm roller locked upper for the AR/M16 platform for a long time. I used to compete in sub gun competitions and for years tried to get a Colt 9mm to run as smooth as an MP5 and the closest I could get was a ramped bolt, no weight and a Olympic pneumatic A2 buffer. Those buffers end up leaking and crap out. I'm now an FFL/SOT and have an MP5 and full auto Sig MPX. Before the MPX came out, I worked with another manufacturer and we did a prototype piston operated 9mm upper. We used a 5.45x39 bolt which has the right size bolt face for 9mm. We had to do custom 9mm barrel since now you need to have a barrel extension. The problem we had was with erradic ejection. We thought that you must have a fixed ejector to reliably kick the brass out. It just wasn't feasible to do major surgery to the bolt and carrier and we both were busy making other products so we dropped it. I had high hopes for the MPX but I personally don't think it suppresses that well. As you mentioned, an alternative that would work on any AR lower would have been much better. Sig would have made so much more $ if they made the MPX work on a standard AR lower. So many people that have SBR's could pick one up without having to register another gun. As you mentioned, I like the ergos of the AR better than the MP5 as well as the modularity. Going with roller locked, a manufacturer should be able to use any of the off the shelf AR barrels out there but will most likely have to make a new upper. Many years ago, I used to have a Calico 9mm which is delayed roller blowback and is mainly polymer. I think it had some sort of metal cage insert in the polymer upper. I've often thought about getting the Calico bolt and that metal cage for the rollers and see if those parts could be used to fabricate an upper. Regardless, I think it is totally do-able and as others have mentioned with all the popularity of PCC's these days this would sell like crazy. After taking part in the discussion here, and (spending way too much time) thinking about this, I think from a pure "getting a product to market and making money" standpoint, the dedicated upper would be the way to go. And since we're doing that, make it a nice left-hand non-recip side charger, with a correctly-sized ejection port and brass deflector. Use the MP5 roller parts, they're fairly inexpensive, and no sense re-inventing the wheel. Folks are already paying $300 and up for side-charging uppers that don't make the gun shoot any better. USPSA PCC is exploding, and lots of those guys are dropping serious coin on the MPX, and AR-pattern guns from JP and Wilson. This system would, IMHO, bury all of those options. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 6:38:56 PM EDT
[#40]
That video above was posted part of a thread over on another forum. The gentleman who made that said it was remarkable how well the MP5 upper receiver and action aligns with the AR/M16 lower but thought it was a limited market due to the cost of the H&K parts. Today there are US made barrels, trunions, bolts, etc. for the MP5 so the upper receiver portion would need to be fabricated to interface with the lower but the rest are available as parts. If I remember correctly he even mentioned it possible the Colt 9mm mags could work in the system but I can't get to that forum right now to confirm. A few of us begged him to make a run of these and seemed he had no interest. I contacted a few of the gunsmiths that can make an MP5 from demilled kits or US made parts that roll and weld a flat into a new gun. Only one replied and said he did not have the time to engineer or stop all the work he had currently doing roller lock hosts.
I think there is absolutely a market for this type of upper for the reason mentioned and for the current SBR and select fire transferable guys. I have shot both the MP5 and Sig MPX and there is no comparison in which platform suppresses and shoots smoother. The MP5 is king of all 9mm carbines/subguns I have shot. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 6:51:37 PM EDT
[#41]
A roller lock upper would be really cool to go with the MP5 mag lower, if those ever get made.
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Posted: 12/7/2016 8:38:35 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video above was posted part of a thread over on another forum. The gentleman who made that said it was remarkable how well the MP5 upper receiver and action aligns with the AR/M16 lower but thought it was a limited market due to the cost of the H&K parts. Today there are US made barrels, trunions, bolts, etc. for the MP5 so the upper receiver portion would need to be fabricated to interface with the lower but the rest are available as parts. If I remember correctly he even mentioned it possible the Colt 9mm mags could work in the system but I can't get to that forum right now to confirm. A few of us begged him to make a run of these and seemed he had no interest. I contacted a few of the gunsmiths that can make an MP5 from demilled kits or US made parts that roll and weld a flat into a new gun. Only one replied and said he did not have the time to engineer or stop all the work he had currently doing roller lock hosts. I think there is absolutely a market for this type of upper for the reason mentioned and for the current SBR and select fire transferable guys. I have shot both the MP5 and Sig MPX and there is no comparison in which platform suppresses and shoots smoother. The MP5 is king of all 9mm carbines/subguns I have shot. I also think there is a market that will develop once a product materializes. Let me know how I can help find someone who wants to do it/put a group buy together. I'm a serious buyer on this and really shocked there is nothing on the market yet. Can you mention those who you've tried to reach out to so we can look elsewhere? |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 8:58:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Another benefit that I just thought of to an upper like this:
Moving from blowback operation would probably allow for a non-ramped, USGI-profile bolt (just with less weight either through materials or lightening cuts). Which means anybody's aftermarket trigger works (unlike most current 9mm ramped bolts).
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Posted: 12/7/2016 8:58:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Anybody know how to CAD?
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Posted: 12/8/2016 8:54:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody know how to CAD? It would be awesome to see in Solidworks. I think a cast stainless steel upper like special weapons used on some of their clones would be the way to go as they had a reputation for being indestructible. Then weld in front trunnion that accepts a 9mm barrel with barrel nut so it does not have to be pressed in like on the MP5. |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 9:38:48 AM EDT
[#46]
I was finally able to get to the other forum (it was down for a day) and reread the thread about this upper again. I don't know if it is okay to mention other sites here so PM me if you want the link. Basically the guy that built that took an MP5 flat, front end and adapted into an AR upper. If you watch the video the mag looks straight so likely an AR 9mm mag. Also at the end he checks it for clear via the top cocking tube just like an MP5. There was mention it should be possible to get last round bolt hold open to work. He says he built it because he already had a transferable AR/M16 and did not want to invest in a sear to have a smooth 9mm. One of his last comments was it was a pain to make and commercially would cost as much as higher end MP5 clone. I am not sure if the MP5 bolt was stock and the AR hammer worked with it or if he modified it. Also the MP5 carrier was likely modified to trip the GI sear in the lower for automatic fire.
There was another post about the legality of this type of upper because in the HK world the receiver(firearm) is the top not the lower like on an AR. I have no idea just read about that again. There were at least 5-10 guys on that forum that said they would be in to buy one me being one of them. I would pay what an MP5 clone costs if it shot like an MP5 on my registered lowers with a magblock adapter and colt 9mm mags. Might even buy two. Outrider I will send you a PM with the gunsmiths I had already contacted a while back. |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 9:45:23 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was finally able to get to the other forum (it was down for a day) and reread the thread about this upper again. I don't know if it is okay to mention other sites here so PM me if you want the link. Basically the guy that built that took an MP5 flat, front end and adapted into an AR upper. If you watch the video the mag looks straight so likely an AR 9mm mag. Also at the end he checks it for clear via the top cocking tube just like an MP5. There was mention it should be possible to get last round bolt hold open to work. He says he built it because he already had a transferable AR/M16 and did not want to invest in a sear to have a smooth 9mm. One of his last comments was it was a pain to make and commercially would cost as much as higher end MP5 clone. I am not sure if the MP5 bolt was stock and the AR hammer worked with it or if he modified it. Also the MP5 carrier was likely modified to trip the GI sear in the lower for automatic fire. There was another post about the legality of this type of upper because in the HK world the receiver(firearm) is the top not the lower like on an AR. I have no idea just read about that again. There were at least 5-10 guys on that forum that said they would be in to buy one me being one of them. I would pay what an MP5 clone costs if it shot like an MP5 on my registered lowers with a magblock adapter and colt 9mm mags. Might even buy two. Outrider I will send you a PM with the gunsmiths I had already contacted a while back. So much this. Some people may call me crazy but I'd pay the price of a nice clone to have an upper work on my lower. I look forward to the PM and seeing if we can generate some interest on this thing, |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 11:32:27 AM EDT
[#48]
Isnt the problem with the MPX the gas port vent? Why not build an expansion tube off of the vent?
I'd also prefer forward side charging, which would allow a better seal at the rear of the receiver, but I don't think that would make the MPX any smoother recoiling or quieter. |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 11:55:30 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isnt the problem with the MPX the gas port vent? Why not build an expansion tube off of the vent? IMHO, the biggest problem with the MPX is that until you get to warmish loads, pistol rounds just don't produce enough gas to reliably cycle the action. I know 9mm comps don't work worth a damn until you get to near-Major loads... I spent months futzing with that. 9mm SMGs and gas-operated autoloaders have both been around for about a century now, with very, very few examples of coincidence... there's gotta be a reason for that.
I think rollers, or maybe even gas-delayed blowback like the P7 series, is the way forward for soft-shooting 9mm carbines. |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 4:12:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMHO, the biggest problem with the MPX is that until you get to warmish loads, pistol rounds just don't produce enough gas to reliably cycle the action. I know 9mm comps don't work worth a damn until you get to near-Major loads... I spent months futzing with that. 9mm SMGs and gas-operated autoloaders have both been around for about a century now, with very, very few examples of coincidence... there's gotta be a reason for that.
I think rollers, or maybe even gas-delayed blowback like the P7 series, is the way forward for soft-shooting 9mm carbines. My experience so far with the MPX does not match this- I'm using a bug fart load with 124gr Xtreme bullets and TiteWad that doesn't even pretend to cycle a Glock. I do agree that roller lock has some interesting advantages specific to 9x19. |
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