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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:39:05 AM EDT
Please share your opinion and/or experiences on the quality and reliability of the C Prod 9mm AR magazines.
Do you find they compare well to the counterparts from Metalform or ASC? 
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:44:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Please share your opinion and/or experiences on the quality and reliability of the C Prod 9mm AR magazines. Do you find they compare well to the counterparts from Metalform or ASC?
i have 4 32 rds. been 100% with my Ambush bolt and RRA block. Do yourself a favor and get the SMG lula |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:09:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Please share your opinion and/or experiences on the quality and reliability of the C Prod 9mm AR magazines. Do you find they compare well to the counterparts from Metalform or ASC?
Nope 100% fucking garbage, and no customer service whatsoever. Bought four of them a while back, and NONE of them fed properly. Called CP and was told to return them for inspection. No problem. Weeks go by and no call or e-mail. Finally got to speak to a rude woman who claimed to be co-owner of the company. I was told they cannot find them. I had tracking info and a date received, bitch told me that meant nothing to her and it was not their problem. She was right, it's my problem so fuck me. $120 down the shitter. Buyer beware. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:12:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i have 4 32 rds. been 100% with my Ambush bolt and RRA block. Do yourself a favor and get the SMG lula Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please share your opinion and/or experiences on the quality and reliability of the C Prod 9mm AR magazines. Do you find they compare well to the counterparts from Metalform or ASC?
i have 4 32 rds. been 100% with my Ambush bolt and RRA block. Do yourself a favor and get the SMG lula Thanks for this, and I agree completely on the LULA, it's on my shopping list. I already have a SMG loader of the old Swedish-K style, (C3 Rapid-Loader) that uses an ammo block to hold cartridges and a plunger to stuff them into the mag, but until I have the magazines in hand, I have no way of knowing how well the setup will work. Also, after posting the topic, I found this archived thread: C Products - ASC 9mm Magazine Function Write-Up It appears that strat81's experience (requiring some fitting to his specific setup) is generally positive, and the issues he did encounter are inevitably due to the multiple manufacture/sourcing of the various components of a typical 9mm build; as he put it in the thread: I think much of this can be attributed to the variety of 9mm parts on the market and tolerance stacking. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:14:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope 100% fucking garbage, and no customer service whatsoever. Bought four of them a while back, and NONE of them fed properly. Called CP and was told to return them for inspection. No problem. Weeks go by and no call or e-mail. Finally got to speak to a rude woman who claimed to be co-owner of the company. I was told they cannot find them. I had tracking info and a date received, bitch told me that meant nothing to her and it was not their problem. She was right, it's my problem so fuck me. $120 down the shitter. Buyer beware. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please share your opinion and/or experiences on the quality and reliability of the C Prod 9mm AR magazines. Do you find they compare well to the counterparts from Metalform or ASC?
Nope 100% fucking garbage, and no customer service whatsoever. Bought four of them a while back, and NONE of them fed properly. Called CP and was told to return them for inspection. No problem. Weeks go by and no call or e-mail. Finally got to speak to a rude woman who claimed to be co-owner of the company. I was told they cannot find them. I had tracking info and a date received, bitch told me that meant nothing to her and it was not their problem. She was right, it's my problem so fuck me. $120 down the shitter. Buyer beware. Well, this is discouraging. Did you purchase them directly from the manufacturer? I'm considering ordering some from AIM. ETA: OK, via moar searching, I have found another thread: ASC 32rnd 9mm Mags, Go or No Go? It appears that, as with strat81's experience, the finish on these mags, specifically the thickness of the coating, seems to be at the root of much of the problems encountered, when problems do arise. I can picture lacquered steel-case ammo dragging on the coating and causing feeding issues. Hmmm, food for thought. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:33:08 PM EDT
[#5]
I got rid of mine... went with metal form and uzi converted mags. Never looked back.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:53:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got rid of mine... went with metal form and uzi converted mags. Never looked back. Well, I'm leaning in the same direction now. Even though AIM has the 20-round C Prod magazine for $9.95, it now looks as though it would be wiser to spend a little more and be assured of better quality from the outset. Did you modify the Uzi mags yourself, or purchase them ready-made? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 2:01:03 PM EDT
[#7]
I had a local machine shop modify mine. I also dremmeled a few also. All work fine.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I'm leaning in the same direction now. Even though AIM has the 20-round C Prod magazine for $9.95, it now looks as though it would be wiser to spend a little more and be assured of better quality from the outset. Did you modify the Uzi mags yourself, or purchase them ready-made? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I got rid of mine... went with metal form and uzi converted mags. Never looked back. Well, I'm leaning in the same direction now. Even though AIM has the 20-round C Prod magazine for $9.95, it now looks as though it would be wiser to spend a little more and be assured of better quality from the outset. Did you modify the Uzi mags yourself, or purchase them ready-made? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 2:10:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a local machine shop modify mine. I also dremmeled a few also. All work fine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a local machine shop modify mine. I also dremmeled a few also. All work fine. Quoted:
Quoted:
I got rid of mine... went with metal form and uzi converted mags. Never looked back. Well, I'm leaning in the same direction now. Even though AIM has the 20-round C Prod magazine for $9.95, it now looks as though it would be wiser to spend a little more and be assured of better quality from the outset. Did you modify the Uzi mags yourself, or purchase them ready-made? Very good, thanks! I may have a go at it with my carbide scribe, and drill press with cross-slide vise. 
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Posted: 1/29/2015 7:44:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9..
Never used c-product... |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 8:42:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... +1 |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 7:06:01 PM EDT
[#11]
I have 8 C-products mags (32 round) and after a little tweaking on the follower they have been 100%. I also have 3 of the 20 round metalform mags. 2 of them won't lock the bolt back. Being metal the follower is more difficult to modify. I like the C-product magazines. I have been using them for over 5 years and have shot lots of PCC matches.
You can always find someone that is vehemently opposed to one product or the other. They may have good reason, but there are still lots of happy customers of each. |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 9:50:44 PM EDT
[#12]
c-products 9mm mags were hit or miss for me. Fine for range but nothing serious. I ended up selling all mine and buying MetalForm - no regrets, the Metalfrom are worth the price difference. Brownells mags are Metalfrom and a few $ cheaper than the branded ones
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Posted: 1/30/2015 10:19:34 PM EDT
[#13]
I put 100 rounds of failure free 9mm through my Colt 6450 tonight with an early generation cproducts 32 round mag. I replaced the follower once, but it has been 100% I have two others that have the orange followers and teflon coating that also work fine. When I bought mine the only choice was $100 for a vintage factory Colt mag or the cproducts mags. Thankfully there are more options today.
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Posted: 1/30/2015 10:19:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
I do have my eye on the Brownell's magazines, and they have a deal on for lots of three. |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 10:57:36 PM EDT
[#15]
ASC mags run great in my PSA 9mm kit
Brownells ones have a thick xylan coating and are very hard to lock in for me. You need to jam them pretty hard on closed or open bolt. (hard as in closed bolt 30 rounds in a GI mag ) They do seem to be getting easier as the coating is scrape off in certain places by the magwell. They also stick in the mag and drop free currently. I expect them to free up over time and use. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 5:58:01 AM EDT
[#16]
I've used nothing but ASC mags through my Colt pattern DDLES 9mm. The 10 mags I have, have functioned 100%.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 12:46:11 PM EDT
[#17]
I have about 20 CP mags, all.of them work great in my RRA SBR. Ive read lots of posts condemning their mags and either I'm the luckiest dude on the planet getting good ones or they all just work in RRA rifles.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:28:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've used nothing but ASC mags through my Colt pattern DDLES 9mm. The 10 mags I have, have functioned 100%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've used nothing but ASC mags through my Colt pattern DDLES 9mm. The 10 mags I have, have functioned 100%. Quoted:
I have about 20 CP mags, all.of them work great in my RRA SBR. Ive read lots of posts condemning their mags and either I'm the luckiest dude on the planet getting good ones or they all just work in RRA rifles. My dilemma deepens! 
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:55:13 PM EDT
[#19]
I have a bunch that work fine but those are all from years ago before the company had all their issues.
Also use converted UZI mags, those work fine but of course there isn't any bolt lockback. [which is fine with me] |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 11:43:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 3:40:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. Thank-you for this advice. I would be interested in hearing about ASC and how they got into the biz. What's the deal? |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 3:12:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 5:11:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Metalform
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Posted: 2/1/2015 8:34:31 PM EDT
[#24]
"CProducts Defense" is ABSOLUTELY NOT the old CProducts. They are nice people and are interested in giving good customer service. However, the magazine design is the same as the old company's, so there is a real issue here.
The high feed angle of the CPro magazine can be a real problem, especially in dedicated 9mm lowers. I have (old) CProducts magazines that are 100% reliable in my carbine and SBR, but I also have a magazine block that I can tweak for height to accommodate these mags' feed angle. |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 9:40:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank-you for this advice. I would be interested in hearing about ASC and how they got into the biz. What's the deal? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. Thank-you for this advice. I would be interested in hearing about ASC and how they got into the biz. What's the deal? My understanding is that CProducts had an agreement with a coating company to provide a magazine finish. That coating company could not provide a quality finish. CProducts went elsewhere. Coating company sued, won, took CProducts equipment, and went in to the magazine business. As a manager for a metal company that uses outside finishers, I would never do business with any company that took such actions. Here are a few links for you to read. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=536153 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/548826_Are_ASC_s_an_improvement_over_CProducts_.html http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_3_17/553805_.html |
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Posted: 2/1/2015 10:45:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My understanding is that CProducts had an agreement with a coating company to provide a magazine finish. That coating company could not provide a quality finish. CProducts went elsewhere. Coating company sued, won, took CProducts equipment, and went in to the magazine business. As a manager for a metal company that uses outside finishers, I would never do business with any company that took such actions. Here are a few links for you to read. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=536153 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/548826_Are_ASC_s_an_improvement_over_CProducts_.html http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_3_17/553805_.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. Thank-you for this advice. I would be interested in hearing about ASC and how they got into the biz. What's the deal? My understanding is that CProducts had an agreement with a coating company to provide a magazine finish. That coating company could not provide a quality finish. CProducts went elsewhere. Coating company sued, won, took CProducts equipment, and went in to the magazine business. As a manager for a metal company that uses outside finishers, I would never do business with any company that took such actions. Here are a few links for you to read. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=536153 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/548826_Are_ASC_s_an_improvement_over_CProducts_.html http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_3_17/553805_.html There's considerably more to it than that, particularly with their 9mm AR mags. These were assembled in a "protected workshop", which is a facility where people with disabilities can do meaningful work and get paid for it. Unfortunately, there was a lack of QC in the assembly process, leading to magazines that just wouldn't work. There were also issues with their tubes, their springs, and their followers. No doubt about their original intent: to make a "universal" 9mm AR magazine that worked in any adapter, which is where that steep feed angle came from. They were just too ambitious with the design, and didn't have the resources to follow through with the required high level of supervision and QC these new products needed. Once they started having problems with their huge investment in the 9mm magazines, other issues, like the coatings problems, cropped up and managed to sink the company. The NEW CProducts Defense is a separate company that bought intellectual property (mainly magazine designs) and set up in Florida. They use robots to fabricate and assemble their magazines, which avoids the old company's issues nicely, and their mags are high quality products. But their design for the 9mm AR magazine is still a high-feed angle design, and those mags, as I said earlier, are problematic in some guns, and seriously problematic in dedicated 9mm lowers. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 1:02:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Had a few with black followers. Constant problems with all of them.
Spoke to Chad at the original C Products and he had me return them with prepaid labels. He sent me a new production run with orange followers and a different coating. First batch he sent went missing. Called and let him know they were not delivered as USPS said they were. He went ahead and sent me a second batch. Second shipment arrived and all was good. First shipment arrived 1mo later. Called Chad and told him 1st shipment arrived, he said keep em for my troubles. Used all 18 mags in an RRA mag block lower and now being used in a DDLES lower. Been a few years and no problems at all. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:46:39 AM EDT
[#28]
I've only used Metalform mags in my RRA upper w/Hahn magblock, not one feed or bolt hold open failure. The mags Brownells sells are Metalform mags with their name on 'em, cannot tell the difference between my older Metalform branded nags and the Brownells. 32 rounds of 9mm, even 115gr 9mm, is heavy. Been tempted a few times to try one of Aim's $10 mags just to see if it functions but every time I need a few more mags I 'play it safe' and spend the extra $$. Regardless of what works reliably in your rifle, Metalforms are the best built mags IMHO.
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Posted: 2/4/2015 1:06:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's considerably more to it than that, particularly with their 9mm AR mags. These were assembled in a "protected workshop", which is a facility where people with disabilities can do meaningful work and get paid for it. Unfortunately, there was a lack of QC in the assembly process, leading to magazines that just wouldn't work. There were also issues with their tubes, their springs, and their followers. No doubt about their original intent: to make a "universal" 9mm AR magazine that worked in any adapter, which is where that steep feed angle came from. They were just too ambitious with the design, and didn't have the resources to follow through with the required high level of supervision and QC these new products needed. Once they started having problems with their huge investment in the 9mm magazines, other issues, like the coatings problems, cropped up and managed to sink the company. The NEW CProducts Defense is a separate company that bought intellectual property (mainly magazine designs) and set up in Florida. They use robots to fabricate and assemble their magazines, which avoids the old company's issues nicely, and their mags are high quality products. But their design for the 9mm AR magazine is still a high-feed angle design, and those mags, as I said earlier, are problematic in some guns, and seriously problematic in dedicated 9mm lowers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Metal form mags are Colt mags... My ACS and metal form mags work perfect in my CMMG MK9.. Never used c-product... You need to educate yourself about ASC and C-Products. Learn about how ASC got in to the magazine business. I wouldn't buy ASC even if every other magazine in the world was banned. OP, there is no dilemma. Buy Metalform mags and be done with it. They have a long history of consistent quality and function. Thank-you for this advice. I would be interested in hearing about ASC and how they got into the biz. What's the deal? My understanding is that CProducts had an agreement with a coating company to provide a magazine finish. That coating company could not provide a quality finish. CProducts went elsewhere. Coating company sued, won, took CProducts equipment, and went in to the magazine business. As a manager for a metal company that uses outside finishers, I would never do business with any company that took such actions. Here are a few links for you to read. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=536153 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/548826_Are_ASC_s_an_improvement_over_CProducts_.html http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_3_17/553805_.html There's considerably more to it than that, particularly with their 9mm AR mags. These were assembled in a "protected workshop", which is a facility where people with disabilities can do meaningful work and get paid for it. Unfortunately, there was a lack of QC in the assembly process, leading to magazines that just wouldn't work. There were also issues with their tubes, their springs, and their followers. No doubt about their original intent: to make a "universal" 9mm AR magazine that worked in any adapter, which is where that steep feed angle came from. They were just too ambitious with the design, and didn't have the resources to follow through with the required high level of supervision and QC these new products needed. Once they started having problems with their huge investment in the 9mm magazines, other issues, like the coatings problems, cropped up and managed to sink the company. The NEW CProducts Defense is a separate company that bought intellectual property (mainly magazine designs) and set up in Florida. They use robots to fabricate and assemble their magazines, which avoids the old company's issues nicely, and their mags are high quality products. But their design for the 9mm AR magazine is still a high-feed angle design, and those mags, as I said earlier, are problematic in some guns, and seriously problematic in dedicated 9mm lowers. Well, this is all fascinating. I have learned a great deal in this thread already! Much thanks to UncleGAK and GHPorter.
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Posted: 2/13/2015 11:20:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Heres my story...
25 rd. UZI converted by American Sprit arms... Feeds all but the last four rounds in 3 different carbines 
32 rd. Promags... Worked well until it got below freezing. Then wouldn't feed. Range time only. 
32rd. Colt... Perfect in all conditions. SHTF first choice. 
32 rd. CProducts Perfect in all conditions next in line if the Colt's get emptied.
100rd. BETA C... worked every time. One HEAVY son of a buck. 
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Posted: 2/14/2015 9:26:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heres my story... 25 rd. UZI converted by American Sprit arms... Feeds all but the last four rounds in 3 different carbines
32 rd. Promags... Worked well until it got below freezing. Then wouldn't feed. Range time only.
32rd. Colt... Perfect in all conditions. SHTF first choice.
32 rd. CProducts Perfect in all conditions next in line if the Colt's get emptied.
100rd. BETA C... worked every time. One HEAVY son of a buck. Those Colt mags are almost certainly Metalform magazines. Except for a very short period, Colt's OEM 9mm SMG magazine source has always been Metalform. Important note: the reason Uzi magazines work with Colt carbines is that Colt decided not to reinvent the wheel with their 9mm SMG. They chose Uzi magazines because they are exceptionally reliable, then added a bolt hold-open tab at the back of the follower. Metalform made their original magazines, and you can sort of track Uzi magazine improvements in Metalform's mags too; the latest Metalforms have the same sort of stiffening ribs on the sides at the feed lips that current Uzi magazines have. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 5:58:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Correct, Sir !
Yes, my Colt's are Metalform.
It's the UZI's that make me maddest. Nice size, nice capacity. Fit well in a briefcase with a DOE SBR.
And I got them for a bargain price. The feed lip angle is just off.
The lowly ProMags ran great, until a Freezing Wisconsin winter. Then the follower wouldn't rise up in the mag body. 
If you are truly low on budget, try a CPD. and save up for a Metalform.
Edit for a misspelled word. (public school) |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 9:30:44 PM EDT
[#33]
I bought 2 C products from AIM and they have been 100% through a few hundred runs I shot since finishing my 9mm AR a few weeks ago
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Posted: 2/15/2015 8:41:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Just a reminder: the new CProducts Defense company is NOT the old CProducts company. Though the design is the same, they are now welded by robots, assembled by robots, and thoroughly QC'd. Before someone steps in again and says "CProducts magazines are crap," it's important to keep this distinction in mind. What AIM is selling are NEW CPro DEFENSE magazines, not the old, problematic magazines.
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Posted: 2/15/2015 9:14:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those Colt mags are almost certainly Metalform magazines. Except for a very short period, Colt's OEM 9mm SMG magazine source has always been Metalform. Important note: the reason Uzi magazines work with Colt carbines is that Colt decided not to reinvent the wheel with their 9mm SMG. They chose Uzi magazines because they are exceptionally reliable, then added a bolt hold-open tab at the back of the follower. Metalform made their original magazines, and you can sort of track Uzi magazine improvements in Metalform's mags too; the latest Metalforms have the same sort of stiffening ribs on the sides at the feed lips that current Uzi magazines have . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Heres my story... 25 rd. UZI converted by American Sprit arms... Feeds all but the last four rounds in 3 different carbines
32 rd. Promags... Worked well until it got below freezing. Then wouldn't feed. Range time only.
32rd. Colt... Perfect in all conditions. SHTF first choice.
32 rd. CProducts Perfect in all conditions next in line if the Colt's get emptied.
100rd. BETA C... worked every time. One HEAVY son of a buck. Those Colt mags are almost certainly Metalform magazines. Except for a very short period, Colt's OEM 9mm SMG magazine source has always been Metalform. Important note: the reason Uzi magazines work with Colt carbines is that Colt decided not to reinvent the wheel with their 9mm SMG. They chose Uzi magazines because they are exceptionally reliable, then added a bolt hold-open tab at the back of the follower. Metalform made their original magazines, and you can sort of track Uzi magazine improvements in Metalform's mags too; the latest Metalforms have the same sort of stiffening ribs on the sides at the feed lips that current Uzi magazines have . I have noticed this as well. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 9:19:23 PM EDT
[#36]
I wish I had two sets of hands, so that I could give them four thumbs down.
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Posted: 2/16/2015 4:09:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish I had two sets of hands, so that I could give them four thumbs down. Damn, that's pretty emphatic! |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 7:01:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish I had two sets of hands, so that I could give them four thumbs down. How long ago did you learn to hate these magazines? What problems did they give you? |
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