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AR-fan
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Posted: 10/1/2011 7:50:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 7:53:58 AM EST by AR-fan]
This is a cartridge that was originally designed by Ron Reed of Reed's Ammunition and to be used in the CZ-52 pistol. It is based on the 7.62X25 Tokarev round and it actually easy to form. I had a carbine put together years ago with the help of Marty at Teppo Jutsu and Ron Reed that is DI operated and uses a pistol length gas system. I had this done back around 2005 and have shot it on and off for years. I just recently got a chrony, thanks to a good friend, and decided to find out, after having this carbine for years, what velocity I was getting of the little 22 Reed Express. Pictured below is the 22 Reed Express with a 30gr Berger bullet I was shooting and there is also a picture of the carbine I was using.


I've shot this carbine for years but had no idea what the velocity was so when the first shot came back 3102fps I almost fell over. I had figured maybe I was getting around 2800 or 2900 but nothing over 3000fps.
the average for ten shots came out to 3104fps (640 foot-pounds energy) with a high of 3132fps. This is an old round –– it's been out for years and I don't think Ron Reed even builds the kits for the CZ-52 pistols anymore but it is still one heck of a nice little round.
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SpecOps-13
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Posted: 10/1/2011 12:26:56 PM EST
Wow, that's a hot little begger too...

Dave
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AR-fan
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Posted: 10/1/2011 2:03:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
Wow, that's a hot little begger too...

Dave

I'll be honest, without a chrony you can't really tell if you're do ok with the powder you're using or the charge weight. Right now I'm using AA #9 and Ron Reed was recomending H110 and W296 powders and that was for the CZ-52 pistol. Now that I have the chrony I need to try what he recomended and see if I can get even more velocity.

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JPN
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Posted: 10/8/2011 3:49:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
Wow, that's a hot little begger too...

Dave

I'll be honest, without a chrony you can't really tell if you're do ok with the powder you're using or the charge weight. Right now I'm using AA #9 and Ron Reed was recomending H110 and W296 powders and that was for the CZ-52 pistol. Now that I have the chrony I need to try what he recomended and see if I can get even more velocity.



Don't forget that Ron Reed is using pressure limits that are safe for a handgun that was originally chambered for 7.62x25 (max of around 35,000psi), while you are using a carbine that was originally chambered for 5.56NATO (max of around 58,000psi). As long as you keep an eye on the primers for indications of pressure problems, and work your way up gradually, you should be able to see an improvement on the velocity.
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AR-fan
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Posted: 10/8/2011 7:12:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2011 2:54:42 PM EST by AR-fan]
Yes, I ran the loads up with the difference in pressures in mind. ]The loads I have now, using AA#9, would be a bit much for a CZ-52 pistol. With the longer barrel on my carbine I figured maybe I should at least try some of the powders that Ron Reed recommended. The only other problem with pressure is the cartridge case –– the Sellier&Bellott Tok brass is strong and can take a lot but the easier to get Starline Tok brass can't handle the same pressures so I have to keep that in mind. Too bad all the milsurp Tok brass is burdan primed –– most of that stuff reforms really nice and easy.

Edit for correction. I was reloading a bunch of Tok ammo the day I did this post and had AA#9 on the brain –– actually the powder used is H110 and the loads I've been working with are within the limits set by Ron Reed for the CZ-52 pistol. I went back and checked my loading log book and realized I was talking about a powder I used for a different cartridge.
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VASCAR2
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Posted: 10/8/2011 8:03:25 AM EST
AR Fan have you seen the new 22 centerfire round that Rock Island Armory/Armscorp is releasing for their `1911 wide body pistol. The specs look similar to the Reed. The RIA is supposed to come with a 9MM and 22 barrel. I think they were getting over 2200 FPS out of the 5 inch pistol.
AR-fan
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Posted: 10/8/2011 10:25:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By VASCAR2:
AR Fan have you seen the new 22 centerfire round that Rock Island Armory/Armscorp is releasing for their `1911 wide body pistol. The specs look similar to the Reed. The RIA is supposed to come with a 9MM and 22 barrel. I think they were getting over 2200 FPS out of the 5 inch pistol.


Sounds about the same as the Reed Express. The Reed Express will do 2200fps with a 40gr bullet out of a 5" barrel. I can't say for sure but it would seem that the RIA version may be shorter since, I believe, it fits in a 9mm magazine. Reed made kits to convert the CZ-52 pistol to his 22 caliber and it used the CZ-52 magazine designed for the 7.62X25 round. I'm not sure if he still makes the kits.

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JPN
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Posted: 10/8/2011 5:11:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Originally Posted By VASCAR2:
AR Fan have you seen the new 22 centerfire round that Rock Island Armory/Armscorp is releasing for their `1911 wide body pistol. The specs look similar to the Reed. The RIA is supposed to come with a 9MM and 22 barrel. I think they were getting over 2200 FPS out of the 5 inch pistol.


Sounds about the same as the Reed Express. The Reed Express will do 2200fps with a 40gr bullet out of a 5" barrel. I can't say for sure but it would seem that the RIA version may be shorter since, I believe, it fits in a 9mm magazine. Reed made kits to convert the CZ-52 pistol to his 22 caliber and it used the CZ-52 magazine designed for the 7.62X25 round. I'm not sure if he still makes the kits.



I'm still waiting to hear a release date on Rock Island's .22 TCM, but shortly after the announcement at SHOT, Rock Island seemed to have forgotten that they had said anything about the new round.

I could be wrong, but I think they are using a 38Super mag (longer than 9mm, but a little shorter than 7.62x25) for the .22 TCM. A couple months ago, I was searching for any updates on Rock Island's .22 TCM and came across an article about the guy who developed the caliber. He stated that one of the keys to getting that much velocity from a round that will fit in a pistol mag, is the hollow point bullet he selected for it. Sounded like switching to something along the lines of a 40gr Hornady V-Max would cause problems with getting it to fit in the mag.
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AR-fan
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Posted: 10/9/2011 5:29:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2011 5:32:35 AM EST by AR-fan]
Originally Posted By JPN:
Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Originally Posted By VASCAR2:
AR Fan have you seen the new 22 centerfire round that Rock Island Armory/Armscorp is releasing for their `1911 wide body pistol. The specs look similar to the Reed. The RIA is supposed to come with a 9MM and 22 barrel. I think they were getting over 2200 FPS out of the 5 inch pistol.


Sounds about the same as the Reed Express. The Reed Express will do 2200fps with a 40gr bullet out of a 5" barrel. I can't say for sure but it would seem that the RIA version may be shorter since, I believe, it fits in a 9mm magazine. Reed made kits to convert the CZ-52 pistol to his 22 caliber and it used the CZ-52 magazine designed for the 7.62X25 round. I'm not sure if he still makes the kits.



I'm still waiting to hear a release date on Rock Island's .22 TCM, but shortly after the announcement at SHOT, Rock Island seemed to have forgotten that they had said anything about the new round.

I could be wrong, but I think they are using a 38Super mag (longer than 9mm, but a little shorter than 7.62x25) for the .22 TCM. A couple months ago, I was searching for any updates on Rock Island's .22 TCM and came across an article about the guy who developed the caliber. He stated that one of the keys to getting that much velocity from a round that will fit in a pistol mag, is the hollow point bullet he selected for it. Sounded like switching to something along the lines of a 40gr Hornady V-Max would cause problems with getting it to fit in the mag.

I saw a couple of articles on the .22 TCM and it seemed like a nice round and a nice conversion for a 1911 pistol. I own a CZ-52 but I don't have the Reed conversion unit for it and I guess it's best I don't since it would be a disaster if I accidently got some of my carbine ammo into it. The Reed kit was designed to handle bullets up to 55gr and the picture on his website shows Sierra HP bullets.
Reed Website
I'm not sure how up-to-date his website is –– he stopped making the ammo some time ago since most people that had his kit where making their own.
The Sierra 30gr bullet is the fast one in my carbine but I actually like the 40gr Hornady V-max. I haven't run that one through the chrony yet.
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ROCRESQ
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Posted: 10/14/2011 8:22:04 PM EST
so much for that 22wmr build I've been waiting on. reloadable and faster. to bad i didn't see this when it first came out. I'll have to do some calling around.
AR-fan
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Posted: 10/15/2011 2:45:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2011 3:04:25 PM EST by AR-fan]
Originally Posted By ROCRESQ:
so much for that 22wmr build I've been waiting on. reloadable and faster. to bad i didn't see this when it first came out. I'll have to do some calling around.


It's a shame that some 22 magnum uppers haven't come out. The really hard part about building one is actually the magazines. Some places only allow the use of rimfire for hunting after dark and the 22 magnum works great there. I built two 22 magnum uppers –– one's a carbine and the other a rifle length and doing the mags was a lot of work and I will say that making mags that are larger than 7 rounds is a major pain in the butt.

Maybe the chamber reamer for the 22 TCM will be available some time down the road and barrels can be made up in that cartridge. The 22 Reed Express is a really nice cartridge but was not designed for the AR so a magazine setup had to be found. The most obvious magazine would be the PPS-43 with all the available magwell adapters –– wrong! The 22RE did not like the PPS mags. I saw a post by JPN about CZ-24 subgun mags so I got some, made a magwell adapter and it works fine.

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JPN
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Posted: 10/15/2011 5:16:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Originally Posted By ROCRESQ:
so much for that 22wmr build I've been waiting on. reloadable and faster. to bad i didn't see this when it first came out. I'll have to do some calling around.


It's a shame that some 22 magnum uppers haven't come out. The really hard part about building one is actually the magazines. Some places only allow the use of rimfire for hunting after dark and the 22 magnum works great there. I built two 22 magnum uppers –– one's a carbine and the other a rifle length and doing the mags was a lot of work and I will say that making mags that are larger than 7 rounds is a major pain in the butt.

Maybe the chamber reamer for the 22 TCM will be available some time down the road and barrels can be made up in that cartridge. The 22 Reed Express is a really nice cartridge but was not designed for the AR so a magazine setup had to be found. The most obvious magazine would be the PPS-43 with all the available magwell adapters –– wrong! The 22RE did not like the PPS mags. I saw a post by JPN about CZ-24 subgun mags so I got some, made a magwell adapter and it works fine.



Kel Tec makes a 30 round .22magnum magazine for their PMR30 pistol. I don't know how hard it would be to adapt to an AR, though.
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ROCRESQ
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Posted: 10/15/2011 7:07:48 PM EST
Yeah those keltec RMR's look pretty trick but good look finding one. Loved the old grendel carbine (20 something years ago) but never had the coin for one.
AR-fan
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Posted: 10/16/2011 3:48:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2011 3:55:00 AM EST by AR-fan]
Originally Posted By JPN:
Originally Posted By AR-fan:
Originally Posted By ROCRESQ:
so much for that 22wmr build I've been waiting on. reloadable and faster. to bad i didn't see this when it first came out. I'll have to do some calling around.


It's a shame that some 22 magnum uppers haven't come out. The really hard part about building one is actually the magazines. Some places only allow the use of rimfire for hunting after dark and the 22 magnum works great there. I built two 22 magnum uppers –– one's a carbine and the other a rifle length and doing the mags was a lot of work and I will say that making mags that are larger than 7 rounds is a major pain in the butt.

Maybe the chamber reamer for the 22 TCM will be available some time down the road and barrels can be made up in that cartridge. The 22 Reed Express is a really nice cartridge but was not designed for the AR so a magazine setup had to be found. The most obvious magazine would be the PPS-43 with all the available magwell adapters –– wrong! The 22RE did not like the PPS mags. I saw a post by JPN about CZ-24 subgun mags so I got some, made a magwell adapter and it works fine.



Kel Tec makes a 30 round .22magnum magazine for their PMR30 pistol. I don't know how hard it would be to adapt to an AR, though.


The mags are fairly vertical from what I can tell by the design of the pistol and grip. I wonder if the design is from the old Grendel pistol which also had 30 round mags? I got some of the grendel mags some years back and the design was cool but they were double stack/double feed and my upper would not work that way. I also thought that Keltec was making a 22 magnum carbine that took the pistol mags.

edit to add: I think this is the 22 magnum Keltec carbine

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AR-fan
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Posted: 11/5/2011 7:51:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2011 7:53:09 AM EST by AR-fan]
I just got back from the range with the results of some more tests I did with the 22 Reed Express. I changed bullets from the 30gr berger to the 30gr Varmint grenade. I also tested with H110 and Lil'Gun and found that the lil" gun did the best for the same powder weight. tested shots were 3188, 3201, 3202, and 3210 for an average of 3200fps. Not too bad for the small cartridge. the picture below is of the 22 Reed Express on the left and a standard .223 round on the right.


The dark line around the bullet on the 22 Reed Express is a color code I used so I could tell the difference between the rounds loaded with H110 and Lil' Gun.
Is that a Dunk'n Donuts I see?