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Posted: 7/10/2011 1:56:48 PM EST
i am wanting to know if anyone makes an upper that uses .357 mag that feeds from a modified Ar mag. or if anyone would be willing to make one?
from what i have been told the rimmed cartridge would be an issue, but that could be avoided by borrowing a few pieces from another .357 semi-auto design.

i am SPECIFICALLY wanting a .357mag, not an upper that shoots some similar rimless cartridge.







any advice would be greatly appreciated
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:02:23 PM EST
I am a CHRISTIAN, a CONSERVATIVE, and a REPUBLICAN... in exactly that order, and completely without apology.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:14:20 PM EST
I've been giving it some thought......and while probably doable the first requirement you'll have to ditch is a modified AR mag......I'd look to some of the existing semi auto .357 mags and a magwell adaptor..........first step is to make a barrel and test breech and see if the ammount of unsupported case can be minimized to prevent blowout.....probably have to turn down the bolt face and then extend the barrel breech into the barrel extension....or maybe design a whole new system.....
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:14:45 PM EST
start looking for AR smiths that do custom/special uppers.

im sure you will find someone willing to make and do the dev for you if you have the $$$.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:21:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
I've been giving it some thought......and while probably doable the first requirement you'll have to ditch is a modified AR mag......I'd look to some of the existing semi auto .357 mags and a magwell adaptor..........first step is to make a barrel and test breech and see if the ammount of unsupported case can be minimized to prevent blowout.....probably have to turn down the bolt face and then extend the barrel breech into the barrel extension....or maybe design a whole new system.....


i was thinking of borrowing some of the design from a desert eagle, and seeing if i could make it work.i was thinking a modified ar mag because i didn't want to mess with a mag block and i wanted higher capacities.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:22:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2011 2:22:52 PM EST by MaxTheRabbit]
it seems a constant through the years that someone is always banging their head against the wall trying to feed rimmed cartridges in automatics

no matter what rimless or rebated rim cartridges come out it's never good enough :D

you could just buy a DEAGLE brand DEAGLE - that's kinda ar-esque

ETA arrrrg dude beat me to the deagle reference
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Posted: 7/10/2011 2:27:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
it seems a constant through the years that someone is always banging their head against the wall trying to feed rimmed cartridges in automatics

no matter what rimless or rebated rim cartridges come out it's never good enough :D


it isn't that the rimless cartridges aren't good enough, it is the fact that i have access to quite A LOT of .357 mag, where as i don't have access to most of the comprable rimless cartridges.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:05:33 PM EST
Ruger is producing a 77/357.

I may actually get one myself .

Who knows , if it stirs up enough business a 357 Deerfield may be next.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:17:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By GB243:
Ruger is producing a 77/357.

I may actually get one myself .

Who knows , if it stirs up enough business a 357 Deerfield may be next.


what is a .357 Deerfeild?
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:27:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By thewildman:
Originally Posted By GB243:
Ruger is producing a 77/357.

I may actually get one myself .

Who knows , if it stirs up enough business a 357 Deerfield may be next.


what is a .357 Deerfeild?


A .357 version of their .44 mag semiauto.

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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:39:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By GB243:
Originally Posted By thewildman:
Originally Posted By GB243:
Ruger is producing a 77/357.

I may actually get one myself .

Who knows , if it stirs up enough business a 357 Deerfield may be next.


what is a .357 Deerfeild?


A .357 version of their .44 mag semiauto.



ok. i still may have to get an AR smith to make a .357mag upper.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:46:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2011 3:48:15 PM EST by nhsport]
A 357 lever gun will get you sort of close to where you want to go.

Loading and reloading will be a good bit slower.

Check with the cowboy action shooters and you will likely find some loading techniques although they mostly only
reload shotguns on the clock

Watching some of these guys and gals shoot will show you some stuff that isn't a whole lot slower than semiauto.

The lever gun will run a wider variety of loads and still give you the benifits of the carbine barrel length.

As others have said , stuffing 357 loads into a semi type mag and getting that mag to fit in an AR is going to be a bunch of work.

Just how much 357 ammo are we talking about here ?
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:51:43 PM EST
I'd like to hear of a 10mm AR chambering.

P.
I bought a 'Sniper 6-pack'. Did you?

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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:53:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By pavil58ar:
I'd like to hear of a 10mm AR chambering.

P.


already done.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 3:53:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By nhsport:
A 357 lever gun will get you sort of close to where you want to go.

Loading and reloading will be a good bit slower.

Check with the cowboy action shooters and you will likely find some loading techniques although they mostly only
reload shotguns on the clock

Watching some of these guys and gals shoot will show you some stuff that isn't a whole lot slower than semiauto.

The lever gun will run a wider variety of loads and still give you the benifits of the carbine barrel length.

As others have said , stuffing 357 loads into a semi type mag and getting that mag to fit in an AR is going to be a bunch of work.

Just how much 357 ammo are we talking about here ?


The lever gun only has 2 things in common with what i want to do, one is a 16 inch barrel and the other is a .357mag chamber.

and there is somewhere between 8000 and 12000 rounds dad says i can have as much as i want whenever i want it, for almost nothing.

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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:50:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2011 4:55:18 PM EST by MaxTheRabbit]
well if you really want to do it you could use a 7.62x39 bolt and a 9mm barrel

but you'd have to cut a new chamber, drill a gas port and attach a trunnion for the bolt to lock into

the real problem would be the mag
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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:56:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
well if you really want to do it you could use a 7.62x39 bolt and a 9mm barrel

but you'd have to ream the chamber of course, drill a gas port and attach a trunnion for the bolt to lock into

the real problem would be the mag


Sounds like you're building an AK with that trunnion .

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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:57:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2011 5:10:21 PM EST by HardShell]
I am a CHRISTIAN, a CONSERVATIVE, and a REPUBLICAN... in exactly that order, and completely without apology.
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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:59:48 PM EST
the 9mm case is actually fatter than the 357mag so chamber reaming is out, you'd have to cut a new one

also a "barrel extension" is a trunnion
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Posted: 7/10/2011 5:22:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
the 9mm case is actually fatter than the 357mag so chamber reaming is out, you'd have to cut a new one

also a "barrel extension" is a trunnion


Just cut .75 " off the chamber area , but then you are still shoving a .357 down a .355 bore.



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Posted: 7/10/2011 5:29:19 PM EST
true, that and the amount of case that will likely end up unsupported makes for an unpleasant combination
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Posted: 7/10/2011 6:44:40 PM EST
I have already done the drawings a while back.....problem is the AR headspaces on the case mouth in the case of a pistol caliber locked breech gas gun like the .45 or 10mm....the .357 as a rule headspaces on the cas rim.......necessitating either cutting the bolt off on the face to make the pocket shallower.....and requiring the manufacture of a new extractor......or making a custom bolt AND a custom extractor and a longer firing pin......all of these are doable but make this not a project for the faint of budget........if you just use an opened up bolt like on a Tok15 or .45 and headspacing on the case mouth then you run a substantial risk of the base of the cartridge blowing and doing nasty things to the gun and possibly your face and hands. While it can be done it would run well into the thousands to manufacture the one off parts and do the testing to make sure it is a safe and functional firearm.

As far as modding an AR mag.....I can't really imagine any mod of a mag designed for a bottleneck rimless cartridge to accept a rimmed straightwall case that is shorter......
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Posted: 7/14/2011 8:19:24 PM EST
i talked to a guy who has done it and i know how to make it work if i can find someone with the tools, the know how, and the balls to take on this kind of project.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 2:22:11 AM EST
I'd be all over that if one was made
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Posted: 7/15/2011 5:57:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By badguybuster:
I'd be all over that if one was made


i will let you know how it goes.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 9:12:19 AM EST
Lets get er done
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Posted: 7/15/2011 12:43:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
Lets get er done


i know for sure i want one, but i may want a second.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 2:11:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2011 2:12:01 PM EST by Mad-Machinist]
Go for it...I'd have to see the drawings and run a few calculations befoe I duplicated someone elses design....just cause it has been done makes it neither safe or reliable........and the thought of an unsupported section on a magnum cartridge just gives me the willies from both a safety and a liability standpoint.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 2:55:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Go for it...I'd have to see the drawings and run a few calculations befoe I duplicated someone elses design....just cause it has been done makes it neither safe or reliable........and the thought of an unsupported section on a magnum cartridge just gives me the willies from both a safety and a liability standpoint.


i am pretty sure this guy would not have "sold" one to his father is it was an unsafe design. and the design leaves almost none of the case unsupported, it would be about 3 square millimeters at the most.
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Posted: 7/16/2011 4:01:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Go for it...I'd have to see the drawings and run a few calculations befoe I duplicated someone elses design....just cause it has been done makes it neither safe or reliable........and the thought of an unsupported section on a magnum cartridge just gives me the willies from both a safety and a liability standpoint.


If we listened to this is the kind of thinking we would still be riding horse & buggies
Some times you must think out side the box
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Posted: 7/22/2011 6:50:54 AM EST
Just build a Desert Eagle like this one and be done with it.


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Posted: 7/22/2011 7:43:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Just build a Desert Eagle like this one and be done with it.


http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5821/deagle.jpg


that would probably cost twice as much as what the upper Ron Williams is building.
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Posted: 7/22/2011 8:27:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2011 11:42:39 AM EST by Mad-Machinist]
Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Go for it...I'd have to see the drawings and run a few calculations befoe I duplicated someone elses design....just cause it has been done makes it neither safe or reliable........and the thought of an unsupported section on a magnum cartridge just gives me the willies from both a safety and a liability standpoint.


If we listened to this is the kind of thinking we would still be riding horse & buggies
Some times you must think out side the box


Between some of my accomplishments in the military in the Com/El/Crypto/NRAS arena, and what I have been doing as a machinist/gunsmith for the past 25 years, rest assured...plenty of "outside the box" thinking has taken place, and if my original statement was read and comprehended...I simply stated I would not build someone elses design without examaning the drawings and evaluating the design against my standards, or examining an example of the finished product...and then only if I had the consent/permission of the original designer. I never said it couldn't be built, but in this instance with the PM discussions I've had with the original poster I did not feel the project was safe or viable given the economic constraints placed by the OP.
Ron, Happy for you and glad that you have a loyal followiing of customers and feel you can tackle this project sucessfully, and as I said in an earlier post "go for it"....just not something I'm interested in pursuing.....I truly hope you suceed and that it runs flawlessly.....cause anything new for the AR and shooting community is always a good thing.
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Posted: 7/30/2011 12:24:14 PM EST
Could it be built using existing Coonan .357 mags??
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Posted: 7/30/2011 1:50:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By rip2k3:
Could it be built using existing Coonan .357 mags??


yeah, the guy who is building the upper is using desert eagle .357 magazines , seeing as they are half the cost.
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Posted: 7/30/2011 4:27:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By rip2k3:
Could it be built using existing Coonan .357 mags??


I didn't know Coonan was still in business?
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Posted: 7/30/2011 4:31:01 PM EST
Would a 7.62x39 bolt work ?
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Posted: 7/30/2011 6:09:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By GB243:
Would a 7.62x39 bolt work ?


i am not sure, if i remember correctly, Ron said his plan was to just mod a 556 bolt.
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Posted: 7/30/2011 6:10:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Charliebee:
Originally Posted By rip2k3:
Could it be built using existing Coonan .357 mags??


I didn't know Coonan was still in business?


they are still in business and still unreasonably expensive.
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Posted: 7/31/2011 6:58:26 AM EST
Tromix used to make them but they were troubled with poor feeding. Tony is now focusing on Saiga conversions.
NOBAMA, you keep the change.
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Posted: 7/31/2011 12:48:31 PM EST
They are still in business. My new Coonan classic will arrive tomorrow. Spare mags are $60. There wait time on a new order just went from 5 weeks to 12.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 5:35:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By badguybuster:
I'd be all over that if one was made


the project should be underway once the reamer gets shipped to Ron.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:56:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By rip2k3:
They are still in business. My new Coonan classic will arrive tomorrow. Spare mags are $60. There wait time on a new order just went from 5 weeks to 12.


Oh, well I guess that's cheaper than .45 Uzi mags.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:44:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By crazytuco:
Originally Posted By rip2k3:
They are still in business. My new Coonan classic will arrive tomorrow. Spare mags are $60. There wait time on a new order just went from 5 weeks to 12.


Oh, well I guess that's cheaper than .45 Uzi mags.


desert eagle mags were $45 a piece when i checked last, the upper will be built to work with them.
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Posted: 8/11/2011 12:43:10 PM EST
just thought i would share an update,. i got an email from ron this morning, the reamer is on the way, but the barrel is about 2 months out.
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Posted: 8/12/2011 4:31:59 AM EST
i will get one from another provider. Looking at 6 weeks.
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Posted: 8/12/2011 11:58:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
i will get one from another provider. Looking at 6 weeks.


what ever works, i am just super excited that it is being built.
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Posted: 9/11/2011 9:42:53 PM EST
i thought yall may want an update, so here it is, the upper is being built.
it will be using a 16 inch barrel with a low profile gasblock covered by a yhm spectre length free float handguard.
the bolt is from a 7.62 ar, and the mags will be desert eagle magazines fitted inside the body of a usgi mag.
i get the feeling this will be one hell of a fun gun to shoot.
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Posted: 9/11/2011 10:48:05 PM EST
Tag
The .458 SOCOM guy
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Posted: 9/16/2011 4:55:11 AM EST
Tromix used the build them, from what I can tell, they were the first to do so, or at least offer them commercially. In 2002 (IIRC) there was a nice article on their .44 Mag version in Gun World.

How it was done:
- the magazines were Desert Eagle mag sleeved in the GI AR15 mags, as someone here already mentioned
- the bolt was a .223 bolt opened up (for the .44 Mag) with custom extractor, for the .357 you should be able to use the 7.62x39 version
- the barrel is the tricky part
–– using the bolt recess as reference, the barrel end that will enter the extension is cut. Rather than the normal flat face with slight bevel/chamfer toward the chamber, in this case, the chamber has a small lip surrounding it. This lip has the diameter of the rim and will serve as the resting place for the rim. This lip PLUS rim will be inside the bolt face when the rifle is in battery (wish I had my CAD folks here to draw this). Now part of this lip is milled away to accommodate the extractor, including its path during the rotation (locking/unlocking) of the bolt. Herein lies the challenge in making this beast feed....
- the extension has the center lug ground down to allow center feeding

Normally your round comes out of the mag and encounters the aforementioned chamfer if not properly aligned with the chamber already. So the nice pointy small diameter bullet fits nicely in the much larger chamber opening and just in case there is a little "ramp" should things not line up perfectly.

Contrast that with the rimmed cartridge version of the AR where (typically) a very blunt bullet of the same (or slightly smaller) diameter as the chamber is trying not to hit this relatively sharp lip that surrounds the chamber PLUS most rimmed cases are totally straight, which does nothing to help with feeding and extraction.... All the elements that you would NOT want in terms of ensuring smooth feeding are heaped into one design.

Can it be done? Absolutely. Will it be easy? No, but then, therein lies the fun and sense of accomplishment, right?
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth”
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Posted: 9/16/2011 6:12:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By pavil58ar:
I'd like to hear of a 10mm AR chambering.

P.


Oly makes one, I love mine

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I AM NOT PROUD OF MY COUNTRY.
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