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Thanks for all this great information. I just became a member but have been keeping up with this thread for a while. I ended up buying a Tacsol (gasp) but it shoots awesome and I love it. I've never had this much fun with a gun and been able to afford to shoot as much as i have been lately!
I have been trying some of the ammo that works good for you with similair results. When i do my part .25 5 shots everytime at 25 yds. I'm not capable of much better and neither is my cheap 10yr old tasco (gasp). I can't remember if you have tried it yet but CCI green tag works best for me so far. I thought one group was off the paper because i couldn't see more than one hole (my tasco was fogging up). 5 shots one hole (not one large hole). Keep up the good work! its nice to read good factual posts and not just hearsay. |
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So can I expect accuracy that will keep me on clay pigeons at 25 and 50 yards with a conversion kit and a 1in7" barrel?
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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." -Mahatma Gandhi
-I may like that quote, but I'm no peacenick "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" -Edmund Burke |
my good friend was testing ammo in his colt 6920 with a ceiner conversion at the same time i was testing ammo in my TacSol upper. His has a 1-7 twist. With the ammo it liked he was getting 1'' 5 shot groups at 50yds consistantly. I know it really liked Rem Subsonic but i can't remember what else it liked. I think the worst he got that day was like 3.5'' groups out of the 8 kinds he tried. He was around 2.5 with Fed 550 and around an inch with CCI mini mag RN. We both still need to try the Aguila 60gr SSS. I predict good things for him.
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I have owned an Olympic Arms 17/22 partner dedicatd upper for over three years now and I can't say enough good about it. It is the most accurate rimfire I own out of seven. It will eat anything thing you run through it from Walmart bulk to match. I got mine way before Blackdog started mags for it and had to use the crappy mag adapter. Now it is my favorite gun hands down. You can not go wrong by getting one. Shooting the 17 mach II is a blast in itself. Turtles and snakes don't stand a chance. |
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Will the Spike's dedicated collar work with my standard CMMG drop in kit for the .223?
I am making a pistol and have a dedicated barrel so I need the collar and a plug for my lower. Spike's is the only place i have seen that has both but im not sure if its what i need. thanks for any help. |
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I ordered a CMMG stainless conversion kit and finally took it out to the range with my daughter on Saturday. I was hoping it would get my girl shooting the ARs. She has hesitated in the past, intimidatedby the muzzel blast and "recoil". It was great, before we left she was shooting mags full of 223 downrange. 1/9" Delton lightweight chrome lined with an EOTECH supported over the top of my toolbox with a rifle case for padding. It did not burp, hiccup, or fail in anyway for about 350 rounds. Accuracy was better than I expected with ammo it like. It shot about 3/4" for Eley Black Box SA 10 rounds, 0.88" for 10 rounds of SK standard plus at 25 yards. Bulk pack Federal and Winchester Dynapoints both shot around 2") It function with everything I threw at it, SK subsonics, RWS Rifle Match, SK Standard plus, Eley black box, Golden Eagle HV, Fiochi M320 (1.32" for 10) and some others I am sure I forgot.
Point of impact was a little low, but it was a blast kicking pine cones around. At 50 yards it gave a 3.1" at 50 yards for 10 shots I am now thinking dedicated upper....ya'll are bad influences |
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The Unsalt Rifle: kinder, gentler, and now lower in sodium
The words of my mouth are as butter, but war is in my heart! |
Well, I finally ran into the ".22 conversion kits and chrome bores = poor accuracy. I've used my .22 conversion kits in several ARs, all with 1 turn in 9" barrels. The latest one has a chrome bore and the groups with the Federal 550 round boxes and the Reminging Golden Bullets were disapointing today. I'm not giving up, just going to try some different brands of .22 ammo.
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Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Well, I finally ran into the ".22 conversion kits and chrome bores = poor accuracy. I've used my .22 conversion kits in several ARs, all with 1 turn in 9" barrels. The latest one has a chrome bore and the groups with the Federal 550 round boxes and the Reminging Golden Bullets were disapointing today. I'm not giving up, just going to try some different brands of .22 ammo. Definately try more ammo. My bushy chrome lined will hover at an inch at 60 yds (my zero) with its favorite bulk ammo. My friends colt chrome lined is about the same with the ammo it likes at 50 (not bulk). The only reason I got a dedicated upper was because shooting the conversion was so much fun I never wanted to stop, but cleaning took so long I never wanted to start. My dedicated upper is super easy to clean. I bet my conversion could give my tacsol a good run with bulk ammo. It loved the rem gold bullet and my upper can't stand it. I meant to do this comparison a while ago but funds have been low so range time has been short. I might be able to do it over thanksgiving break if i get lucky early and find that buck i've been looking for. I spent 16 hrs in the woods in 2 days last time i went home with no luck. Looks like i'm gonna have to change something up or hope the rut has hit harder by now. |
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Originally Posted By PMB1086:
Will the Spike's dedicated collar work with my standard CMMG drop in kit for the .223? I am making a pistol and have a dedicated barrel so I need the collar and a plug for my lower. Spike's is the only place i have seen that has both but im not sure if its what i need. thanks for any help. Whether the Spikes collar fits the dedicated barrel or not depends on the barrel. Spikes collar is .500 and I would assume the barrel diameter is around .490. I bought a CMMG collar which is .460 and CMMG dedicated 22 barrels are .450 diameter. As far as I know Model 1 sales collars are the same size as Spikes at .500. Its my understanding a Spikes collar will fit with a CMMG or Ciener bolt/conversion. The Kuhel 2nd generations barrels are also the same size as Spikes and Model 1. To change from chamber insert to the barrel collar just pull the bolt to the rear and spread the rails enough to slip the chamber insert forward and out, be careful with the bolt as its has spring pressure on it. |
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Shot my Spikes dedicated upper today for the first time. Had one FTE in about 200 rounds of misc, largely older, ammo I had lying around. Shot around 1" groups in very informal plinking at 50ft. Lower was a RRA with a standard mil-spec type trigger/hammer and a spring kit. I'm very pleased.
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-"The truth does not require your belief in it to function."
-Genuine science is about gathering evidence and testing the veracity of theories, not cheerleading for a particular ideology. |
Originally Posted By VASCAR2:
Originally Posted By ranbo1213:
Just recieved an aluminum Velocity Firearms dedicated 22lr upper, mated it to a Delton lower..nice set up except the bolt will not engage into full battery (there is a small gap) when charged, about 70% of the time, any constructive comments on what the problem may be will be greatly appreciated..the unit was cleaned and lubed to no avail..wanted to shoot it on sunday, but now i have to wait to call Velocity on monday to see whats up?? great forum..thx I've seen Ciener kits do this same thing and the Velocity upper uses a modified Ciener kit. There are several things that could be causing this and I'll try to list some of the ones I've found. With the metal 10 Round mag or BDM type mag could be dragging on the bottom of the bolt. You can check this to see fi the bolt continually goes into battery with no magazine after firing single rounds. If its a problem with Ciener metal mag you can use pliers to adjust the lip height. On BDM mags a little sandpaper to lower the lips till the bolt clears. Check the cut out on the side of the barrel for the extractor to ride when the bolt goes closed. The bolt should drop freely into battery with the upper and lower apart and no recoil spring. Make sure your not using a gas buster charging handle or are having the bolt drag on the charging handle. Make sure the bolt is not dragging on the bolt stop or hammer when cycling. A couple of friends bought velocity uppers and the recoil springs were junk. They fixed their uppers by buying a Lakeside spring kit from Black Dog Machine. They cut one spring till they had their uppers functioning with their preferred ammo. The two velocity uppers I've been around were pretty accurate and once tweaked by their owners functioned pretty good. If you have to order springs from Black Dog Machine its a good idea to get a replacement firing pin. With a standard weight hammer the firing pins break after only a few thousand rounds. Good luck I hope you get your upper sorted out. VASCAR2..Thanks for the post regarding the fix on conversions & BDM mags. I recently shot my CMMG .22 cal conversion kit in my DPMS M4 ( first time ). Had similar problems not going into battery some of the time with both BDM mags( I like the "view-thru" ). I had purchased a CMMG mag with the other 2 BDM mags, "just in case". The CMMG mag was flawless, & I was wondering what the problem was. I will check using your method in the next few days....must be a similar problem. Will update the post later.....thanks again................"G" |
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I was using a spike's tactical conversion with BDM Mags
I fired about one full mag into each target. So that is about 25-27 rounds at 25 yards. The top 2 targets are CCI Standard Velocity in the paper packs bought at Dick's Sporting Goods. The bottom 2 targets are Federal Bulk Lightning bought at Walmart. For the top left target, the first 10 shots were very good, almost hitting in the same spot. Then I got lazy and so the group started spreading out. I am not that great of a shot, so others could probably shoot better. The bullseye ring is 1 inch in diameter. Each subsequent ring is 1/2 inch. http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7120/img10261.th.jpg |
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Great thread. I'm just now looking into a conversion or dedicated upper and was wondering if you've tested CMMG dedicated uppers? Did I miss it and if so which page is it? If not will you be testing in the future?
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Have been looking here and RFC, found plenty of stories about issues and fixes but this was a rough day. Like using a single shot. "Fire, Stop, Remove mag, Pull bolt, Remove shell, Replace mag, etc,...
I have a Ciener conversion in a S&W M&P 15T. New rig only about 500 rnds of .223 and 450 of .22 The rig hits very well (probably better than I am capable of) with Walmart/Remington bulk pack Golden bullet. Jams are the same with Ciener mags or BDM and most of the jams look like they are going straight up into the space between the charging handle and the spring guide on top of the bolt, getting smashed into the end of the gas tube. I try to keep it clean and lube with Mobile 1. It doesn't matter if it is fresh or filthy started with the first shot today. I thought it would get better after "break in" but is 450 enough of a honeymoon? http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PB295050.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PB295051.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PB295052.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/TARGET31oct09-20001.jpg |
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If a rifle fails to eject a spent brass and it goes up instead of out can sometimes be attributed to magazines or bolt speed. I'd try firing the rifle and see if the closing bolt catches the fired case with no magazine in the rifle. If it doesn't it could be the extracted case is coming into contact with the lips on the mag. I had one BDM mag where I had to lower the left side of the mag as it was a little taller than the right side. I also had to use needle nose pliers to adjust my 10 round ciener mags. Its also possible the hammer spring is to strong and has to much resistance for the recoiling bolt to let the extracted round to clear before starting to close. If you don't see any clearance issues between the bottom of the bolt and the hammer, bolt catch or magazines you may need a reduced power hammer spring or a lakeside spring kit. The lakeside spring kit includes a hammer spring, disconnector spring and three recoil springs so you can cut one recoil spring to work with your ammo. If the rifle functions without a magazine in place I'd try shooting the rifle with one or two rounds in the mag to see if it still functions. Sometimes the upward pressure on the bottom of the bolt from the mag is enough to cause function problems until the kit wears in or the springs are changed or adjusted. With your kit being new this may not be a problem but worth checking. In 22 conversions and dedicated uppers it helps functioning if an unfired cartridge will slide out of the chamber when the muzzle is raised. Its possible the chamber adapter is out of spec or dirty. If an unfired cartridge is sticky I use flitz polishing compound on a barrel mop with an electric drill on moderate speed to polish the chamber. Its amazing how a Ciener will be troubles some then as it polishes it's self up from being shot and starts to work. Don't give up you can probably sort it out.
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Thanks again VASCAR2;
You get around like my ex wife. |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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texasgiant1959: Walmart/Remington bulk pack Golden bullet. Most unreliable rounds in a Ciener.
What VASCAR2 said could be the problem especially if it's happening with the CCI Rounds. But I'd do a permanent change to Federal bulk or even better, CCI of any Long Rifle type. You are getting some fantastic groups even with the Remington's but trust me they work much more reliably in a 10/22 Ruger.. Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=180291
Updated my range report now with lots of Aguila ammo and some Wolf Match. |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Some what of a modified reprint from my post in the standard rimfire forum.
My poor Lothar Walther M4 hasn't been fired in too long. It did get a new Spike's Lower that has "The Punisher." I picked the lower up at the Tampa Gun Show. It's a Blem???? Really Cool looking under incandescent lights. It looks Maroon. Under florescent lights it's black?? I built the lower with my spare parts and ordered 2 DPMS LPK's to build 2 more. The punisher somewhat goes along with the ones I modified and painted on this rifle. As mentioned, I made the Nasal opening look like the Special Operations Spearhead on them. Finally got around to updating my BDM Drum too. I never had a problem with it but since Kevin was nice enough to send the mod parts I figured I better do it before it's next year. The drum comes with these parts installed by the factory now, mine was an initial release. The drum has worked flawlessly in every rifle I've tried it in. As always BDM puts out very reliable products. Kevin is continually looking for ways to improve on already great designs. The Cool Factor of this drum is off the scale. It draws a croud every time I take it to the range. It's convinced several others that they need to get started into AR-22's. I picked up the scope at Wally World, it's a $70.00 scope that has impressed the hell out of me. CenterPoint Adventure Class 4-16x40mm It's got Standard unlit mil reticule, red or green lit. It has objective adjustment. The windage and elevation can be adjusted in seconds while shooting and then recalibrated to zero and locked. The mounts are a little low for my taste but they came with the scope as did the scope caps. I wasn't going to say anything because you will all probably buy Wally out. It's ok, I went back and bought another so have at it. If it had been handed to me to Test and Evaluate and had no labels telling me who made it, I would have guessed the cost at about $1000.00. I'm serious as a Heart Attack. http://www.crosman.com/optics/riflescopes/adventure/CPA416AORG Here's how the rifle looks now and the best targets of the morning 12 / 13 2009 using CCI Standard (Left) and CCI Sub Sonic (Right).. 5 Shots @25 yards, the centers are from a standard NRA Official 50 Ft. Small Bore Rifle Targets. The Orange Pasters were my idea and they worked quite well. Otherwise I couldn't even see the holes. The pasters are the size of a nickel. Damn tight group for CCI Std. |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
Finally made it back to the range. Had a good day on paper but as with so many other things that look good on paper...
Puts them right where I want them, the pictured target is 50 yards! And I was not working for trophy hits I just wanted it to work. But it is like shooting a single shot bolt action. Since my last post about this I have worked over the bolt with extra fine valve grinding compound. Ran another 150 rounds in it today(very long tedious day of plucking jams and hand feeding.) I could not get it to fire 2 consecutive rounds all day, something is very wrong. H E L P ! These pics are from before cleaning and I noticed some things. It looks like there is gas escaping around the outside of the part that fills where the .223 shell goes. many of the jams go up into the gas tube area. Everyone of them was caught by the bolt on its way forward and the next round was well on it way into the chamber, like the fired case can't get out of there fast enough. I worked the inside of the chamber with compound on a tight patch in a drill. I have also eliminated the mag as a potential hang up, it jams if I load and fire with the mag out! The scuffs inside the charging handle are from shells jamming up there and not the bolt. Could the return spring (that feels heavy to me) be running the bolt back into battery faster than the shells can get kicked out by the ejector? I also used a variety of ammo and got the same result. Thanks. Paul. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/TARGET19DEC090001.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195091.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195093.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195101.jpg http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195104.jpg |
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I think you've eliminated several potential problem areas texasgiant1959. If your running a standard AR hammer and hammer spring and your sure the bolt is not dragging on the hammer or bolt stop I'd start cutting coils off the recoil spring. I bought a spring kit from Lakeside a few years ago and that finally made my Ciener reliable. If I were you I'd consider buying the Lakeside spring kit from Black Dog Machine as this spring kit comes with a hammer spring, disconnector spring and three recoil springs if remember correctly. The lakeside spring kit is a very worthwhile investment and BDM is having a sale if your in need of magazine or other parts. I can't see it from your pictures but I'd also look the ejector which is on the rail on the opposite side of the ejection port. This small metal ejector needs to have a good level straight edge edge. From everything you describe it really sounds like there is insufficient bolt speed. If you do cut the recoil spring I'd try it on the range. I'd cut 2 or 3 coils and fire 1 round with no magazine in the rifle. If the rifle fired and ejected I'd try 1 round with the mag in place. If it then jammed I might cut a couple more more coils. I then shoot it with 1 round and no mag. If it functioned I'd try 1 round with the mag in place. If it ejected with the mag in place I'd try loading 1 round from the mag then firing. If the rifle cycles fine then I'd try loading a couple of rounds and see if the rifle started cycling. I also prefer to modify or adjust the cheapest part in the event I go to far. Don't get stressed out I think you can still get this thing to work with some patience. Your groups look pretty good and I can't see anything obviously wrong on the chamber insert. It appears the extractor is nestled in the side of the chamber adapter extractor notch. Are you able to pull fired or unfired cartridge out the chamber using the charging handle to retract the bolt? If the conversion won't extract a round while pulling the charging handle you may have a bad or improperly shaped extractor. Just so happens Black Dog Machine sells higher quality extractors and firing pins for the Ciener/CMMG conversion kits. If I was buying the Lakeside spring kit I definitely would buy a spare extractor and firing pin. I fire a lot of rounds in my 22's and I've gone through (broken) several firing pins on my Ciener conversion. The next firing pins I buy will be from BDM. Maybe this will give you a couple more ideas sorry I got long winded.
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"From everything you describe it really sounds like there is insufficient bolt speed."- VASCAR2
Are you sure that wouldn't be to fast for the spent shell to get out? There is some dirt on the corner of the ejector but other than that it looks good and the extractor plucks them from the chamber well. I have also run it bone dry and wet, all the same. Thanks and I will start chopping on the spring soon. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195090.jpg |
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Looking at your picture texasgiant1959 there appears to be a little junk on the front inside corner of the ejector but I think that it would probably wipe off and not effect functioning. If the bolt is moving to slow it doesn't fling the spend cartridge out of the way before the next round in the mag comes up. Its also possible the bolt is moving to slow and its not giving the spent case an insufficient whack from the ejector to fling the brass out of the action before the bolts starts going forward thereby catching the spent brass causing a stove pipe. This is also why the round is bouncing up into the charging handle area if the mag is out of the gun. As an example if you pull the charging handle slowly the round will kind of hang in the chamber opening whereas if you pull the charging handle briskly the cartridges gets flung out the centerfire AR 15 fast and hard. It appears you have two options, change hammer spring to a lighter hammer spring or cut the length on the conversion kit recoil spring. It would be interesting to see how your kit worked in someone else rifle. If it were a CMMG bolt I'd tell you to contact them. From appearance this is a Ciener conversion bolt and you've probably heard about Ciener's lack of customer service. Just my luck but every Ciener conversion I've been around I either had to work on the conversion kit or the magazine to get it where it would half way work. We got a Mini 14 conversion kit which was so bad we sent it back to Brownell's. I've helped my friend work on three different Ciener Glock kits and finally got them to where they will work well enough not to be considered as a paper weight. I've been around 6 different Ciener AR 15 conversions and we either had to work on magazine or the kits themselves to get them to work. A buddy has a gun shop and has sold about 15 CMMG kits and we haven't ever had anyone complain about them not working. Every CMMG or Spikes kit has worked great for me out of the box. I know Ciener's can be found cheaper but sometimes you get what you pay for. I'm not condemning you for trying to get this conversion to work I'm just telling you I've been there and invested a lot of time and money to figure out how to make the most of these kits. If you can get Cieners to work you can usually use them for quite some time before a part breaks. Hang in there.
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thanks again for the honest insight. In another time I may have seen this all the way to the end just to see if I could but I would rather spend the time money and effort on the range.
Wanna buy a kit cheep? |
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I got my Ciener AR 15 kit when there really wasn't anything else on the market and just hung in there until I got it to where I could use it. The only problem I've had in the last few years has been broken firing pins. I usually try to keep a couple on hand for the AR 15 kit.
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Hello, I'm new to this .22 conversion stuff, and have enjoyed reading this thread. Lot's of good info here.
I just got a CMMG conversion kit to use with my Bushmaster Texas M4 carbine. I purchased the kit from Palmetto State Armory. It fits in my upper receiver like a glove! I had a chance to try it out earlier today. I used several types of ammo: Winchester Wildcats, Remington Thunderbolt, Remington High Velocity, and Federal Champion HP. All except the Federal was 40 grain bullets, and the Federal was 36 grain. Accuracy looks to be pretty good, but I was mainly checking for functioning rather than shooting groups. All ammo types fed and ejected fine, although I found that when manually cycling the bolt the ejector would slip over the rim of an unfired cartridge. The hammer on my lower is notched, and I noticed that CMMG recommends using a rounded hammer. I did have several misfires with all of the ammo types, maybe this was caused by the hammer. I can see that when the hammer contacts the firing pin the notch in the hammer is just above the center of the pin. I might try installing a rounded hammer to see if it helps. Maybe a rounded hammer will transfer more energy to the firing pin. Has anyone here had problems with the notched hammer? I can see that shooting cheap .22 ammo is going to be addicting! |
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What do you think I should be able to accomplish with a Tac-sol upper
at 50 yards using a just an Aimpoint? From a bench with sandbags I'm getting around 2.5-2.75 inches for 7 or 10 round groups. Thanks +ETA I'm using Federal Bulk. Also with Remington bulk I get FTFire with the first and sometimes second round in my mag. Every time. But never after that. I've only shot a few mags of the Remington though. |
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"Get the attention of the crew and then run counter clockwise around the tank as they track you with the main gun, after the 5th time around the turret should pop off as it comes unscrewed from the hull."<gtate>
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Originally Posted By Forgetfull:
Also with Remington bulk I get FTFire with the first and sometimessecond round in my mag. Every time. But never after that. I've onlyshot a few mags of the Remington though. Check to see if the bolt is closing all the way when you chamber the first round. If it's not quite closed the firing pin can't get a good hit on the cartridge rim. |
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Originally Posted By cbr: If it's not how should I fix this? releasing the charging handle faster? The gun stays pretty clean and I use good lube. Originally Posted By Forgetfull: Also with Remington bulk I get FTFire with the first and sometimessecond round in my mag. Every time. But never after that. I've onlyshot a few mags of the Remington though. Check to see if the bolt is closing all the way when you chamber the first round. If it's not quite closed the firing pin can't get a good hit on the cartridge rim. |
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"Get the attention of the crew and then run counter clockwise around the tank as they track you with the main gun, after the 5th time around the turret should pop off as it comes unscrewed from the hull."<gtate>
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Remington Bulk Golden Bullets are the absolute worst choice for AR's.
They work great in my 10/22's but not in my conversions or dedicated uppers. I'm surprised you had so few failures with them. Stick to Federal if you want to shoot bulk ammo.. Your group sizes sound about right using low magnification optics and bulk ammo.. Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13: Cool thanks. I guess I'll save the Remington for the bolt actions. It also runs like crap in my Mosquito. I wonder if picking up a cheap magnifier would tighten my groups up a bit. I'm just not that imressed with 2 or 3 inch groups at 50 yards where there are people who can shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards with Irons and a 5.56 AR-15. I know that the 22 bulk ammo is junk but maybe I need to get some better stuff. Remington Bulk Golden Bullets are the absolute worst choice for AR's. They work great in my 10/22's but not in my conversions or dedicated uppers. I'm surprised you had so few failures with them. Stick to Federal if you want to shoot bulk ammo.. Your group sizes sound about right using low magnification optics and bulk ammo.. Spec |
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"Get the attention of the crew and then run counter clockwise around the tank as they track you with the main gun, after the 5th time around the turret should pop off as it comes unscrewed from the hull."<gtate>
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From my experience a red dot scope will not allow me to get the potential accuracy out of a rifle. Most of my red dots are 5 MOA dot so if I'm thinking clearly I'm covering 2.5" at 50 yards. The only way I get decent groups is to use black circles of 2.5" at 50 yards. I then set the intensity of my dot to were I can see the black circle under the dot. I then lay the red dot to cover the black circle. I can shrink my groups but I do a lot better using a 9 or 10 power scope with cross hairs on small black square target. I have a little better luck with my e o tech which has the 1 MOA dot but I really don't use the red dot off the bench for target shooting except when I'm trying to zero my sights and red dot. I usually zero the irons then put my dot on top of the iron front sight then make final adjustment on red dot if needed. I've never used a magnifier but I've used 2 and 4 power red dots but I can't seem to shoot them as well as I can a regular scope with cross hairs.
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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I see 6 or 7 red dots when I look through an EOTech or other similar optic. Astigmatism. Weird because it's identical in both eyes. I'm fine for
tactical shooting but I can't use red dots for targets well. With a standard scope I can adjust it to my eyes and see only a single crosshair line. I have a 3x magnifier and EOTech on my 7.62 X 39 AR but it's for hogs so the range is short here in Florida. I also have a couple "Go To" AR Carbines that just have EOTechs. I've found that standard velocity ammo and a scope with 4-10 (Or Higher) x 40mm works well for targets from 25 to 100 yards. Look back to my post #1683 above. The worst groups that I showed from that day are about 1-1/4" or a little more at 100 yards. A good scope with fine crosshairs makes a great difference in my shooting. SpecOps-13 |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
Originally Posted By VASCAR2: From my experience a red dot scope will not allow me to get the potential accuracy out of a rifle. Most of my red dots are 5 MOA dot so if I'm thinking clearly I'm covering 2.5" at 50 yards. The only way I get decent groups is to use black circles of 2.5" at 50 yards. I then set the intensity of my dot to were I can see the black circle under the dot. I then lay the red dot to cover the black circle. I can shrink my groups but I do a lot better using a 9 or 10 power scope with cross hairs on small black square target. I have a little better luck with my e o tech which has the 1 MOA dot but I really don't use the red dot off the bench for target shooting except when I'm trying to zero my sights and red dot. I usually zero the irons then put my dot on top of the iron front sight then make final adjustment on red dot if needed. I've never used a magnifier but I've used 2 and 4 power red dots but I can't seem to shoot them as well as I can a regular scope with cross hairs. The only reason I'm disappointed with my Red Dot groups is from reading this post from Molon and the groups people got at 100 yards. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=453382 |
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"Get the attention of the crew and then run counter clockwise around the tank as they track you with the main gun, after the 5th time around the turret should pop off as it comes unscrewed from the hull."<gtate>
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Awesome man!
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has anyone had problems with lead clogging the Gas tube when firing the conversion kit thru a .223 upper?
im debating a Spikes conversion or a dedicated upper.. i have a new spikes stripped lower that is in need of some parts so i might just go ahead with the dedicated uppper. i also have 2 other AR15s that i could use the conversion in just for plinking. |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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You will get a million conflicting opinions on the lead issue. I haven't had any problem but most of the ammo I've fired
through conversions has been copper washed, Federal Bulk. If your existing rifles are 1:9" or slower twist rate it's worth trying a conversion. If you don't like the results, all you are out is the chamber adapter's price. you order a dedicated collar and build a dedicated upper for 22's from there. SOS-13 Added info about the chamber I have with the Beyer Barrel.. Apparently this style "Chamber or Match Chamber" is shorter and tighter than what I would call a "Sporting Chamber". I thought things needed a little more break in as I was having to manually seat many of the CCI Rounds. First time I've felt a need for forward assist on a 22. I've never run into a 22 chamber that was this short and tight, I had seen CCI Stingers not run well in several, prior to this. By setting other brand ammo into the chamber, I've found that Federal Bulk and Wolf MT are a sweet fit. Several other brands weren't, RWS, Eley MP, CCI anything, weren't. The Beyer Barrels will likely come standard with a sporting chamber that will accommodate the majority of different 22's. Unless you choose to get one as tight as mine. I'm going to experiment with this chamber and see what I can do with it... It's an opportunity for me...... |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
Thats cool i was just wondering..
I ordered a Spikes Tactical Dedicated upper this morning... Cant wait for it to get here.. Ive also been buying Federal red box from walmart like crazy. They are extremely hard to find and the price keeps goin up. So far ive wiped 4 walmarts clean. Funny thing is, one day i go in there and there are none. next day i go in and they have a few boxes so i buy them. Next walmart is the same way. But i get home and all my boxes have the same Lot number. So i gues they get a shipment about the same time.. Pretty neat. I also have the centerpoint scope that you used on one of your test.. |
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
I IM'd nonnieselman several days ago and we got his questions answered... Thanks!! My ST parts get here tomorrow!! |
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Initial reiewTac Sol LT upper
*Update* Took the TacSol Lt to the range again today, between myself and a co-worker we ran another 323 rounds of winchester 333 bulk pack through it. So far, 0 failures out of 383 rounds with no cleaning. Today was mostly just plinking for fun, I didn't have a rest so all shooting was freehand supported and unsupported. We shot all 323 rounds without a break, one mag after another, did a few mag dumps just for grins and giggles as well. Pictures aren't the best being from a cell phone. When my camera is available again, i'll get some better pictures. 20rnd group freehand supported @25yd 4 groups @ 25yd, |
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Hi Guys,
I am new here myself, and have read the posts in this thread with great interest as I am currently trying to decide if I should buy a dedicated 22lr upper, an M&P 15-22, or a Ciencer type conversion kit. I have found the information in this thread very informative, thanks (especially Spec-Ops-13). I am primarily looking at a 22 upper for inexpensive practice (I shoot 3-gun), and for some plinking/fun shooting. AR types are restricted here in Canada, so it cannot be used for hunting. I guess I will be shooting a considerable ammount of ammo, I usually go through 500 rounds or so when I shoot my 'less fun' .22's, so the AR will probrably get hammered, especually by the kids. My 'big' AR has irons, so any dedicated upper will also be plane jane as well. I am considering buying a used DPMS dedicated .22 upper and dropping this on my Eagle Arms lower. Has anyone any experience of the DPMS upper? Will it take BDM mags? I had discounted a Ceiner type conversion because of tales of woe I had read regarding fouling in the gas tube of my .223 upper (I have a Stag Model 3H). Am I right to be concerned about this, or will a good blast with 223 Ball clean the gunk out? Should I just bite the bullet and get an M&P 15-22? The cost of the DPMS upper is about $200 Canadian less than the M&P 15-22, that retails for $575 pluss tax up here. Cheers in advance for any advice. Fingers |
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