Hey Aziz, what twist rate is the Anschultz?

It is 1:16".  It started as a huge tube of steel, 1.25" in diameter, and 19.625" in length.  It was sourced from Sportsmanguide here.  It requires quite a bit of machining to work with the upper receiver.  My dad, a gunsmith in Texas who build it, has done this kind of barrel work for the DPMS .22lr kit, along with another one like mine.  There were several people who saw it in progress wanted to buy it.  If he builds it, it is tested prior to leaving his hands, and he is quite OCD about making rifles like this as accurate as they are reliable.

A word of caution.  If you do order the barrel like this from Sportsmanguide, I HIGHLY  recommend getting the shipping insurance.  My first one escaped the confines of its shipping box.  That $1 save me another $100.

I finally got a chance to go test out my .22lr conversions the other day.

I was able to bring out 3 ½ AR15s to the range to do my testing.  I brought two franken-retro AR15s, my DMPS AP4 carbine and my M1S sales dedicated upper.  Both of my retro clones had barrel that are 1/12 twist with Colt proof marks.  Both retro uppers had “LM” LAR / Martin Marietta forging marks.  My DPMS AP4 AR15 carbine is the standard chrome-moly 16” barrel with 1/9 twist rate and A2 FSB.  It sports the standard DPMS removable carry handle.  Lastly, I also brought my home built M1S .22lr dedicated upper.  The A3 upper itself is of unknown origin-I got a good deal on it and it seems to be in spec and usable w/ no noticeable damage.  The dedicated upper has the 16” M1S dedicated .22lr barrel w/ 1/16 twist rate and a regular A2 FSB and an old beat up Colt removable carry handle.  I also brought a cheapo 4x Simmons scope that sits in a B-Square AR15 flat-top mount that was used with both A3 uppers.  All lowers were either DMPS or Double Star Corp. lower w/ stock mil-spec LPK.  The triggers were also stock.

For testing, I placed a 2” Birchwood Casey target spot on a 8x11 computer paper.  The target were then placed at the 25 yards lane.  I did not bring any rest, so I had to improvise.  I used my .50 cal ammo can to use as a rest, that was topped w/ my soft gun case.  After an initial sight-in, I loaded a BDM mag with 25 rounds of the 36 gr “Red Box” 550 Federal Value Pack from WallyWorld.  Each gun/target combo was tested with 25 rounds.  I tried to space my shots at roughly 1 seconds apart, but got careless as I progressed.

Below are each targets:


DPMS AP4 with irons


DPMS AP4 with 4x scope


Retro #1 with irons


Retro #2 with irons


M1S dedicated upper with irons


M1S dedicated upper with 4x scope

Impressions:
I thought that the dedicated M1S barrel would out-shoot the others, but it was on par with the retro AR15’s.  My accuracy would not win any matches, yet; but are minute of squirrel, which is what I’m going for.  The accuracy of the retro AR15’s w/ just irons surprised me, I knew they would be accurate, but I wasn’t expecting this kind of accuracy.  The 4x scope helped a lot in shrinking the groups.

The stock triggers SUCK for this kind of work.  Don’t take me wrong, they are ok and works, but I would think that w/ better triggers, the groups would get smaller.  I’m going to try to get some aftermarket triggers with lighter pulls to re-do my testing and see if that would help.  Maybe a better rest setup would have helped too – but I wanted to see how well these rifles would shoot w/ improvised rests, as that’s the only kind of rests I will find in the woods stalking squirrels.

Lastly, I need A LOT of practice.  I’m sure that if I was doing my part, and was deliberate and concise with each pull of the trigger, I could have shrank the group too.

For my next test:
•Better rests (i.e. sand bags for both the front and back support)
•Better triggers ( it is a want, but not a need – as I don’t want to worry about target triggers failing in the woods)
•I did bring my 20” A2 Bushmaster w/ chrome-lined 1/9 twist barrel to the range, due to time limitations, I did not shoot it.
•Work on my breathing and trigger pulls – the first 10 shots were ok; but I find myself losing concentration and consistency after that.  II could feel myself pull the rife to the right later on in the firing sequence.
•Try out other .22lr ammo.

Thanx to all who are posting their results here with various conversions and dedicated uppers. I really think we're coming up with some good info. I believe we're all  doing well to keep our testing as consistant as possible considering the number of us doing the tests.

Tom (Spike's) IM'ed me that my Lothar Walther Barrel has been shipped. It's a 16", M4 Contour. I've got what few parts I need to build it coming too. I'll probably do the 5 shot groups with Spike's Standard 16" Green Mountain Barrel Sunday or Monday. That way I can concentrate on the L/W build and test.

I saw that CMMG has a new dedicated upper, looks pretty cool. I asked them if they would share the Manufacturer of the barrel. Thought I may try to include it in the testing here and wondered what the potential accuracy may be using a known barrel maker. They weren't willing to share the info and consider it proprietary. OK....

I'm eventually going to modify a chamber adapter  to .224 to see if there can be any accuracy improvement of a standard conversion. They're already reasonably accurate so I don't expect much. But it's worth the shot.

SO-13

Added: This accuracy problem was later found to be caused by the Muzzle Brake that I'd swapped onto this rifle because it looked really cool. Somehow it was changing the accuracy potential to a greater and greater degree after the first few shots. In a future range trip, I swapped it out for a standard birdcage as you will see and all was well.


My Scope Died ( @%#& ) While I Was Doing The Final Tweaking For 5 Shot Groups.....

Accuracy Testing of an Upper Built With a Spike's Dedicated, Green Mountain Barrel and Spike's Dedicated Bolt.


Note: I moved the centers / pasters onto a paper towel so they'd show up better. These are in order and properly orientated as best as I could place them.

I was making final adjustments (25 Yards) on my scope after shot 1 and 2.  Fired 3 and 4 and closed the scope up,. Thought I was done adjusting and fired the rest of a 25 round mag, 1 shot per target center / paster. It got so bad after the 14th shot the hits totally missed the paster's. In some cases nicking others (Look Closely and You'll See). That was the only smiley face, It wasn't me smiling. I thought I'd gotten into some Bad Federal Ammo so I bought a box of 50 Winchesters from the Rangemaster. They Functioned fine but "SSDT" as you can see from the last center shownin the lower right. With every shot fired the Point of Impact changed. I finally accepted that the Scope had Crapped Out.

There were 2 options available at the range, the Rangemaster had a Red Dot on an AR Pistol that he offered for use and there was a 512 EOTech on consignment for $325.00.

My eyes Suck with a Red Dot or Holographic, I see about 7 dots for every one unless I have it Co-Witnessed and I didn't have a rear sight. Astigmatism....... So I passed on both and accepted Failure for the night. So much for this weeks 5 shot groups.. I guess I'll carry a Spare Scope from now on........................................

I think that when I get back  to the range again and have a scope that'll hold zero, we're gonna see some fine groups.
Just looking at the first 5 shots, remember I made adjustments after 1 and 2, but it would still make a pretty good 5 shot group if we made an overlay...

SO-13 in Depression......

Gees! What scope were you using so I won't make the mistake of buying one for my Spike's ST-22 with Lothar Walther barrel?

Spec, you should try some real target sights, with an adjustable rear and front irises.  You will shoot with less twitching and it is easier on the eye.  This arrangement allows you to focus on the target, not the front sight.  The eye naturally tries to center the target within the concentric circles.  All but one of my rifles have use of either a scope or aperture sights.  I can shoot more consistently with the sights.  You saw the target from the AR-15.  Here is a 25 yard, 5 shot group from a Winchester 52 bolt gun, circa 1931.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/W52_tight_group.jpg

I would also switch to a smaller magazine, like a 10 or 15 round.  It will allow you to use a more stable shooting platform for greater control.

The Lothar Walther build is, in process. I have most of the parts I need to do the build, Mainly just need time to do some paint work when it's not raining and 100% humidity. I want to do some trick artwork on the furniture and only have 1 shot at it. I don't have any spares of the parts I'm painting. The picture shows most of the parts minus the actual lower receiver. I'm thinking I'll use my "Pre Spike's Lower" ( Prior to Spike's as the Company Name. The Spider's There, Even Then). Fitting I Think.   It's on another rifle with an A2 Stock right now.  Another thing that's slowing progress is that I'm dealing with Dr's, Therapists, Lawyers, Insurance Companies,  my 94 YO Mother on a daily basis and attempting to keep my Wife Smiling through all of it  but I'm not one to complain.



Scope on the Spike's Green Mountain Build was an NCStar Compact Tactical Scope. I've had pretty good luck with them on 22's and really liked the graduated military reticle. Even without the failure, for the kind of accuracy we're trying to achieve here in this post, the reticle bars are so big they cover the entire bulls eye and 10 ring of the target centers I'm shooting @ 25 yards. I'm going to need to find a fine line reticle scope. The centers I'm trying to do 5 shot groups in are only 1" in size.

I hear ya about the target sights. My Eyes were 20-15 when I was shooting in the military. Now I'm lucky to do the 20-40 line. The aperture works somehow to correct my Astigmatism when I co-witness with a Red Dot or EOTech. It keeps me from seeing 6 or 7 dots. That's a problem I don't have with a standard scope??????????????????
I use Black Dog Machine 15 Round Mags for bench shooting. They are nice and short.

Have a Great Week...
SO-13

I finished the initial 5 Shot Group Testing of My Spike's Green Mountain Barrel Build.  

Made it to the range about 11:00 AM today.

Off subject but it made me smile:  The Range Master had the Tactical Pistol that I put together for him using a Spike's Lower and Kitty Kat Upper. I think he sleeps with it since I got it done. He's using an M261 Kit with it and everybody that comes through the door has to hold or shoot it. He says he's selling all his other AR's. Having an option of 22 or .223 it's all he needs. Surprisingly, It's accurate for such a short barrel.  

On Subject: I took 3 scopes and 3 Comps/Brakes/FH's too. I tried another NCStar just for grins. 75 Bullets went all over a 3" circle while I adjusted the scope to no avail. Pulled that scope and put a Simmons on that I know to be good. 75 more bullets went all over a 3 inch circle while I tried to zero this scope. Crap?????

I took the muzzle brake off (Link, So You Can See What It Was)

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27226/Product/AR_15_M16_TACTICAL_MUZZLE_BRAKE

and put a standard Bird Cage FH on. The groups immediately tightened up. I thought the brake really looked great but I'm going to have to Drill the end for 22's. Somehow it disrupts the bullets much like I've seen with some other muzzle devices when used with 22's. I'll have to drill the end to  0.400 as I have with a few others.

Note: The Brownell's Brake "As Is" worked accurately for a few rounds, Then the accuracy degraded almost with each following shot to the final state, Bullet Hits All Over.
That's what made me think the first scope just went bad. When I put the other 2 scopes on it was already past being accurate. I didn't see any lead on the interior or exit of the brake so I couldn't imagine it being that bad. But when I changed it with  the Bird Cage all was well...  Wierd Shit........

I swapped the Simmons out for the original NCStar Scope and used another 50 rounds (Which Turned Out To be 49???) to get a Bulls Eye Zero as perfect as I could. The temperature in the shooting area of the range was 112 Degrees, I  only have 51 rounds left to get results. I'm sweating profusely, shaking, stressed out and really needed a beer, which I seldom do.
Here's the outcome, all 51 rounds, Unedited:

Even under these conditions, the group sizes are smaller than the ones I fired with my 1:12" and the Spike's Conversion Unit. The best being 1/2" and the worst at 3/4"




I had to use all different size target centers because I didn't have enough of any one size to be consistent. Considering my condition by this time,  It went as well as I could achieve, I was wobbling the scope on the target about the size of the medium size center. I had to pull the trigger when I thought it was crossing the Black Diamond. I actually think this rifle's at the limit of my accuracy....  It, (Maybe Not Me, After already firing 200 rounds and Swapping so many things around in 112 degrees) is very capable of less than 1/2" inch at 25 yards. I'll come back to this build in the future to get some better accuracy readings when the test and my own conditions are more favorable. Then I'll add pictures of the results. Which I'm positive will be much more " Real" than those shown here, presently.

God help me when I put the Spike's Lothar Walther Rifle together and have to reach up to it's level of accuracy. That'll be very soon. Hopefully when I shoot it I will have everything right to start with, have fired less rounds prior to doing the actual testing and be in a cooler environment.

Stay Tuned.......................

SO-13 / BlackHeart-1

I had time to complete the Lothar Walther Build last night. By the time I finished, Didn't feel that I could do justice taking pictures so I waited till this morning.

The LW Barrel is an M4 Contour, 16" . Spike's offers it as the Top of the Line 22 barrel for their dedicated uppers or for parts builds like mine.  

The insignias that I used on the fore end, grips and buttstock are a Modified Spike's Punisher that I made up for this rifle, the nose opening is shaped like The Special Operations Command Spearhead. The stencils for them and my screen name were hand cut from Staples matte white sticker paper. Not the greatest thing but it worked over and over. As long as I let the paint dry on the paper before using it again. The paint for the most part is the tough plastic paint now being offered. I used the hole at the top of the butt stock as a bullet hole in the skull with blood splatter. The spider insignia is from a Spider-Man Sticker Set.    

This build as the last for the Green Mountain Barreled Rifle are basically a barrel from Spike's and spare parts. I didn't buy a dedicated bolt assembly for this one yet, it'll be using the one from the first build for now. As I mentioned before probably, I pulled the lower from another rifle because it's a Spike's Lower but it actually pre dates the name Spike's. It's color filled using Testors Model Paint. Look very closely and the spider's there in the second picture. I plan to eventually test this rifle at various ranges so I put a 3.5 x 10 scope on.  A real "Franken Rifle". My favotite thing to build because they don't all look the same.

SO-13

I'm so pulling the trigger on a spikes dedicated upper. Was gonna do it this week but I'm on vacation till the 15th....so as soon as I get back.

Range Day Today, I took the Green Mountain and Lothar Walther Uppers and the lower for the LW. Both Barrels are from Spike's Tactical and I built both of the uppers from parts, so they're Spikenstoner's..... As usual it was hotter than Crap but at least I had everything right this time.

I shot 10 medium centers with the Green Mountain Upper and picked the best and the worst to show here.
Group size ranged from the size of a dime to just over a penny.

Then 10 small centers with the Lothar Walther, with best and worst shown.
All groups were more than covered by a dime except the one on the right. I pulled a shot to the right edge.
My Bad..... Not The Rifle. But it was the worst of the 10 for the LW.

Then to make things consistent with all of the tests I've run, I did a 150 round group using the LW.
The Quarter almossssssst covers the entire group, A quarter is just under an inch.

I could probably draw more accuracy out of both of these dedicated uppers , but it wouldn't be realistic to use a Bi Pod, Rifle Rest or a Vice. I don't even like to shoot that way. All of the shooting tests so far were by steadying myself using the shooting stand/table or whatever you want to call it. It leaves some human error in each shot. Real Life.............. I could use premium ammo rather than Federal Bulk. I could buy better scopes, trigger packs and a few other things, including shooting slower. The tests that I've run are what you can expect to achieve with the very basic parts and either a 22 Conversion or Dedicated Upper.

My impressions so far, are based on what I've shot myself: You may be Younger, Faster, Steadier, See Better or Whatever. The percentage difference between the .22 LR Options below should come close to the percentage difference you will actually get when you shoot each in the same way. Even if all of your groups are 1/2 the size of mine.

Note, Updated 12/13/2009 The results so far have been with Federal Bulk. Not the most consistent load there is but it's established a baseline for the potential accuracy of the different twist rates of AR-15 barrels and dedicated uppers. In much of the rest of the posts from me I'll be trying various and better quality 22 bullets. The following "For Fun" Analysis and percentages can only be improved upon by finding the load that your conversion or dedicated upper prefers. I'll be moving into smaller groups and in some cases better optics. I will improve upon my technique too. You will see the 5 shot group sizes get smaller and smaller. Then I'll eventually move into some 10 shot groups as the range increases. Some of the rifles Others and I will test will be surprisingly accurate. With my  5 shot groups as far down as 0.139 @ 25 yards and 0.338 at 50 yards. The limiting factors here are you, the rifle you're firing and how you have it set up, the range conditions and the ammo you select. What I will see in the future will move me more to the use of standard velocity ammo with velocity in the range of 1000 to 1070 FPS. Accuracy improves with just that change.. Good Luck and I hope that what all of us have written here helps you.. That's our goal. You're more than welcome to add your results to this thread too.  Good Luck.

These analogy's are just for Grins..

1:7" Twist Barrel and a Conversion: Will kill balloons at 25 yards. That's about it without using a heavier bullet. 4", 150 rounds @ 25 yards
1:9" Twist Barrel and a Conversion: Soda can Killer at 25 yards. Federal Bulk works fine. 2 1/2", 150 rounds @25 yards
1:12" Twist Barrel and a Conversion: "Ciener Conversion" More Better Soda Can Killer, Ditto to Federal. 2", 150 rounds @ 25 yards
1:12" Twist Barrel with Spike's Plated and O-Ringed Conversion makes it equal by my results to the dedicated barrel one line below. 150 rounds @ 25 yards
Spike's 1:16" Twist Green Mountain Barrel, Dedicated .22 LR: 25 yard Mouse Killer. Federal Bulk. 1 1/2", 150 rounds @25 yards
Spike's 1:16" Twist Lothar Walther Barrel, Dedicated .22 LR: A 50 yard Mouse Slayer, Most Likely,,,, Future testing at 50 yards, I believe will show that. Absolutely 1 Shot, 1 Kill at 25. Federal Bulk. 1", 150 rounds @ 25 yards.

These percentages should be relatable to other Manufacturer's Barrels of Similar Quality. This is based upon My 150 round 25 yard groups........
I think these numbers are right, percentage of improved accuracy: Going from a Barrel Twist Rate, To a Barrel Twist Rate or up in Barrel Quality for the Green Mountain and Lothar Walther Barrels:

1:7 to 1:9 = 37.5%  
1:7 to 1:12 = 50%
1:7 to Green Mountain Barrel = 62.5%
1:7 to Lothar Walther Barrel = 75%
1:9 to 1:12 = 20%
1:9 to Green Mountain = 40%
1:9 to Lothar Walther = 60%
1:12 With Ciener Conversion to Green Mountain = 25%,,        
1:12" With Spike's Plated, O-Ringed Conversion to Green Mountain = 0% Remember, this is only the 150 round group.....
1:12 to Lothar Walther = 50% or 25% depending on the conversion used in the 1:12" twist upper.    also, 150 round group only.....
Green Mountain to Lothar Walther = 33%

The following percentages represent the averaged difference in 5 shot group improvement, based on all of the groups that I fired for each combination. Where consistent accuracy really counts:

1:7", 1:9" and 1:12" with Ciener Conversion were not tested with 5 shot groups.
1:12"  with Spike's Conversion Unit to a Green Mountain Barrel =33%
Green Mountain Barrel to Lother Walther = 20%


I hope more of you will jump in and post results with your Conversions, Dedicated Uppers and Complete Dedicated Rifles. I'm going to continue testing what I can and comparing against the results I have so far. I have a pretty good idea what I'd buy if I had it all to do over again. Hope this helps those who are just getting started with AR-22's so their decisions are a little easier and clearer.

I Wish.......................We haven't been able to find any 22 ammo here in the Tampa Bay Area for 4 or 5 months. I've been running from what I'd stocked up on before the mad rush. All I have is Federal and Remington, the second of which is no help at all...  I'll be happy to test with quality ammo soon as it becomes available. Suggest some to look out for. One of the gun shops here has a person on the phone daily looking for 22. I can add that to her list to find. All she has been coming up with so far is Normal Federal, Remington and Winchester....It's selling for $35.00 to $50.00 a Brick.
SO-13

Test as many different kinds as you can.  It really is a shame there is such a "shortage" of rimfire ammunition.  If you can, try to find any of the target ammo like Federal 711b, Wolf MT/ET, any Lapua/SK, Eley, or RWS.  If you go to Rimfirecentral.com, you can get a feel for what ammo is considered low, medium, and high end target grade rounds.  I personally have shot some of the more consistant groups with Federal 510 and 711b, American Eagle AE22, and a couple of other subsonic rounds while staying under the $10 per box.

Buy as many different kinds as you can find and experiment. Just like my competition pellet rifle, try and find what feeds, fires, and groups best within your own weapon system.  Once you find it, buy it by the multiple case order.

AzizaVFR: I'll test for better accuracy now that I'm pretty much complete with all the comparisons.
I did my best to keep everything equal for that, to show the fairest accuracy comparison I could possibly get.
Thanx for the ammo suggestions. For now, I'm stuck with what I can find...Hopefully that'll change soon.
Spec

I know about the Group buy, I'm looking to do the flat top with the Spector rail, I don't think it is included in the products listed in the buy.

You'd have to do the rail after the fact. Some options are available with the upper but not the Rail.
Here's the 22 upper that's available in the Group Buy, only today and Friday left....
SO-13.

http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=106&products_id=268

I ordered mine yesterday with the LW barrel.  When the Wife finds I have a new toy and the dust settles I will put a spector or the longer FFtube on it.  I have a rifle length FFtube but want the quad rail instead!  Although I bet it would be an accuracy advantage if I just put on the FF tube I have!  I will post pics when it gets together!

Pranavdc: That's gonna be one fine setup. I've been shooting Federal Bulk so far through Spike's Dedicated GM & LW. I'm on the hunt for some Match Ammo, You're gonna Love how it shoots when you have it in your hands. I compared the LW to some 10/22 targets I have. The Lothar Walther 16" Blows them Away in an overall comparison.

I've had a lot of questions about the accuracy and reliability of a Short Lother Walther Barrel. I've just built up a spare Spike's STP Pistol Lower and will talk with them about building up a very short version soon.  Please, be patient, I'm doing everything I can to test as many 22's as is possible. It seems there's a great deal of excitement over the Lothar Barrel in any length. I hope Spike's orders go out of sight. Just don't buy every one they have before I can work out buying one for the testing. I won't be able to test any more if you do. Money, need more money....

Spec-13

Added some range data to one of my posts on the first page. Need to get my scope mounts in to draw more accuracy out of my rigs.

I went to the range with 2 AR Pistols, Federal Bulk Ammo and Spike's Standard 22 Conversion. I'm spoiled with the Lothar Walther Accuracy. These pistols both did well for what they are, .223 / 5.56 barrels. Both are using Spike's Lowers.

The pistol on the  top has a 10 1/2", 1:7" twist, Rock River M4 Upper.
The one on the bottom is an 11 1/2", 1:9" twist with a Chrome Lined Bore,  It's a Frankenstoner that I built and as expected due to the twist rate, the more consistently accurate of the 2.

Targets correspond with the nearest pistol:

The top 3" target center is a 20 round " Mess" @ 25 yards using a laser for sighting (I can only count 17 or possibly 18, But the others went somewhere).

The bottom 3"  target center is 150 rounds, as with the other tests I've done..... It was fired using only a 1x red dot sight. It measures 2 1/2" from the worst hit to the worst hit in any direction. Not bad when compared to the 16" rifle with the same twist rate and better optics, tested a while back..Note: That rifle had a Ciener Conversion, not Spike's... 2 1/4" for the rifle compared to 2 1/2" for the pistol.. Ref about the center of page 1, this topic..

I didn't do 5 shot groups, they'd have been Really Bad. No Point....

The complete target that I pulled the centers from is also shown. It includes adjusting the laser and red dot, all the shots fired, even some I did rapid fire....It represents 300 rounds total..

Spec

This is a great thread. Jumped on the Rimfire section wondering if the Walther barrel really was $100 more worth of barrel and this pretty much answers that for me. Thanks for doing all the leg work on this. I'm a highly accuracy minded shooter and shoot more paper than anything else so I think I would appreciate the extra accuracy from it.

After reading about that one muzzle device having such an effect on accuracy I got to wondering about the fake can that Spikes can ship with their uppers. I love the look of the fake can with the specter length rail and think I'll be saving my pennies for one of those with the walther barrel upgrade. I just got to thinking about barrel harmonics, adding weight to the end of the barrel changes the harmonics. I wonder what one of those fake cans would do, if you shot say 150 with it on and 150 with a thread protector or something lighter like a bird cage and then compare....

I have a spikes conversion kit, but had no mags. After reading this and learning of the group buy from spikes I ordered a few at a great price, thanks guys! Whats the deal with it by the way. I've gotten my mags and it's already 8/10 and it appears that the AR15.com group buy is still on Spikes site and I was even able to add one of those group buy dedicated uppers to a shopping cart... is it still going?

The barrel harmonics will be overshadowed from the action cycling.  Harmonic compensators on the end of the barrel work really well on a bolt action rifle, since the ignition of the round is the most disruptive force.  In a semi-auto, the bolt's movement imparts its own forces.  They are harder to quelch.  I would definitely spend the extra money on the best barrel you can get.  It is the number one component for the rest of the rimfire firing solution.

Does anyone have a comparison between the spikes conversion (with the new chamber adapter) and the CMMG conversion as being sold now? I'd like to go with the Spikes but Palmetto's out and everything else on my order list is through them, plus their 10% off sale right now... If it's really a big difference I'll just order it elsewhere and eat the price difference, but if it's not a big change in a 1:9 16" then oh well. Specifically, the rifle's an MP15ORc, so nothing on the end of the barrel and the scope's whatever I put on. Anything from a Primary Arms multi M3 to a 12x Bushnell.

Oh, and GREAT thread and testing SpecOps, and thanks for the assist to Spikes. That attitude toward your customers is one of the reasons I'd prefer to go with your product.

Ah, that makes sense. I've seen those tuners and have read quite a bit about them to believe that they work. I never thought about all the other harmonics associated with a semi auto. Still I wonder if the extra weight from the can would be enough to change group size or drop. Probably not noticable at 25yards, but 100 yards maybe. I plan to test this when I get my upper, still havn't ordered yet, but I definitly see one in my future.

Oh and btw. I called up spikes today and talked to them. The AR15.com group buy is still going on. The gentleman I talked with said that it will be going for another week or two, but he wasn't sure when specifically it was going to end.

I don't have a comparison between Spike's and CMMG conversions. I'm hoping too very soon.

Added 8/12/2009: I have a Stainless Steel CMMG Conversion in my hands. It came with 3 Magazines, a 10, 15 and a 25 or 26 rounder. The conversion bolt assembly sure is pretty, very highly polished so I don't expect much need for break in other than the recoil spring. I can see that it was test fired so all should be GTG when I can make a range trip. I have a 1 in 12", 20" twist built up on a CMMG Lower, very fitting for this test. I've verified the accuracy against my other 1 in 12 and they are the same using one Ciener Conversion for both . This rifle has an FN Barrel which I've not seen before in 1 in 12 twist. Oh, I opened the one magazine up to see how they accomplished blocking it at 10 rounds, It's substantial.



This isn't my Thread. It's for everybody interested in shooting AR-15 Conversions and Dedicated 22's. I have target fixation in wanting to try everything I can get my hands on but everyone is welcome to add their tests and results. It's Our Thread...........

This will probably create a lose, lose situation for me. But, I never really cared what individual thought of me. When I do test direct competitors products, I will test them equally and in as close to the exact same way as I can. I'm sure some won't agree with my results and I'll probably piss some off. I'm after truth, the best that I can get at it. If you hate my guts for whatever, I'd appreciate an IM rather than shooting me in an open forum though. Hasn't happened yet but I'm sure it eventually will. My part in this thread is to test what I can and let ARFCOM Members decide who's product they like best. My testing isn't scientific, it's not exact, it's not perfect. I believe it does show the differences in potential accurately, based on my abilities. I just like to pull the trigger,,, A LOT

God help me when I run out of bullets.............


Spec

Depending on how and where the inherit resonance of the can relates to the harmonics of the barrel, it would make very little difference in the overall result.  The fake can does not have the same mass as one of the harmonic compensators you see hanging off the end of some benchrest rimfire rifles.  This can probably weight ounces where I have seen over a pound of lead stuck on the end of a BR50 rifle, trying to weed out every bit of mechanical variation.  

If you are wanting to get a precise as possible, start with a high quality barrel blank, preferably one with an internal bore of .217" with a 1:16" twist.  You will need an experienced gunsmith to cut the chamber, using a bolt action match reamer, not a Bentz.  You want it cut to where the bullet is pushed into the rifling upon going into full battery.  Also, you want a perfectly concentrically cut crown.  The angle does not matter as long at the final edge touching the projectile is cut at the same point around the circumference of the bore.

After that point, you can accessorize it to your heart's content.

Finally, the sights I wanted all along for the AR-15 have arrived.  This will help with establishing a better sight picture than before.  These are the same style sights used for Olympic rimfire/pellet rifles and High Power/Palma centerfire rifles:

PNW Rear Micrometer Rear Sight
Gehmann 510 Adjustable Rear Iris, 0.5-3.0mm
Lipski AR-15 competition rear base
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/AR-22_sights_1.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/AR-22_sights_2.jpg

Sinclair AR-15 22mm Front sight
Gehmann 522C Adjustable Front Iris, 2.9-4.9mm
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/AR-22_sights_3.jpg

Sight radius: 25"
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/AR-22_sights_4.jpg

Just received 2 Spikes .22 upper with the full auto set-up and in the box was nothing other than the uppers and magazines.  They have the full auto bolt kits and I can see where the sear trip goes and have an idea for the counter weight. But where do the springs and steel ball go. The woman at Spike told me to check out U-tube. I found this to be useless cause it doesn't f have the full auto version.  Does anyone know how this full auto sets up?

Thanks

Mike

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=168048         try this thread, but be prepared to tune. my best luck is with hyper velocity ammo

This should be a direct active link for that FA Thread.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=165786


AzizaVFR: Those sights are UnFrigging Real. I'd need my Astrophysics Major Son here to figure them out. Cool...................................

SO-13

I'm enjoying the heck out of your posts and unbiased results!!    

My Stainless CMMG Conversion arrived the other day in a package that will hold the conversion and 3 magazines. It included a cool set of instructions written at a newbie level, even has drawings for those of us who are mentally challenged. The instructions include FA Information, Instructions for installation in the rifle, ammo recommendations and more. I looked at the pictures which show the unit being installed in 30 seconds. I'm one of those people who never reads the instructions. But for someone new to AR's and conversions, it works.

Made the trip today with the last, I hope, of 3 inconsistent Federal Bulk Packs ( Lot # 1AV681 ) and 200 rounds of a new lot #. Been trying to get rid of the flaky stuff when I'm just blastin away for stress relief.  It must have been from the last buy that I made because it was in the last ammo can I put them in. I've been using the latest ammo first because I expected there may be some like this.
Purchased 7 to 8 months ago.

The rifle used for this testing is a FrankenStoner that I put together a while back with an FN - 20", 1 in 12" twist, light weight barrel. I've run it against the 1 in 12" rifle I'd used previously for tests here and found No discernible difference in accuracy. I used the same conversion in both rifles for the comparison.

Today's testing was of the CMMG Stainless Steel Conversion Unit and 3 CMMG Mags. A 10, 15 and a 26 rounder, I believe. Never loaded that many rounds just 20. The 10 and 15 round mags are of  Gen II Design which involved a small mold modification to fix the tightness of Gen 1 Mags in the mag well. The High Cap Mag that I ran is a Gen I. None gave me any trouble when firing so don't be afraid of getting the Gen I, they function just fine.

The conditions were better than they've been in months. We had a Tropical System coming past so it was very overcast and the temperature while shooting was below 100, actually it was 85 degrees.

I started setting up the scope and using up the ammo that I wanted to get rid of. The guy in the lane next to me was shooting a high caliber pistol so I actually had some time to waste. When he left, I started shooting for real.  The picture that goes along with the tests explains what's what. In the 200 rounds of good ammo there wasn't one failure of any kind.

Clean up was very similar in ease to Spike's Plated Bolt. Maybe because with both, you can see where they need cleaning?

This conversion has a permanent home in this rifle.

Now, I'm hearing rumors that CMMG may have or be considering a Dedicated Stainless Steel Upper?????? Anybody know more, I haven't had time to check it out????

Spec

 
08/16/2009
Wind right to left 5-10 mph off the ocean.  Target frame rocking slightly side to side.  
Aguila - one misfire (fired on second try) & two failures to eject.
Wolf - 0 malfunctions.
CCI SV - 0 malfunctions.
BDM and CMMG short 10 round mags.
I really like the CCI SV - very consistent function and good accuracy.

I've been following this thread closely and have been very interested in the results from these diffrent conversions and barrels. I finally got my rimfire setup functioning and took a day out at the range so I thought I'd post my own test results here as well.

The first gun I have is a self-built AR-15 which has an RRA NM two stage trigger, standard A2 stock and a YHM Smoothie upper with a chrome lined 1:9 twist 16" barrel in 5.56 N.A.T.O. I used a Spikes Tactical conversion kit in it with BDM 10 round magazines. This kit has the nice electroless nickel finish on it and o-rings on the chamber adapter. I'm very happy with the fit and finish on this conversion. I bought it used but it showed almost no signs of use.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/YHMUpperSpikesConversion.jpg

The second rifle I used was also a home build. Featuring a RRA NM two-stage trigger, stag telescopic carbine stock, and DPMS Dedicated .22 LR barrel. It's a 16" barrel that's super heavy and has a free floated forarm. I should really measure the barrel, it seems thicker than the normal 10/22 0.920 barrels.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/DPMSDedicatedUpper.jpg

The scope I used for all testing was a sightron 6-24x scope with mil-dot reticle set on 24x with the paralax properly adjusted. I did all the testing at the Richmond Rod and Gun Club's 25 yard range. The benches over here, as you can see from the pictures, are really short. So short that I couldn't even use my bipod. For the YHM uppered rifle I used a carpeted wooden block to shoot from, with the bipod still attached at the front. I would reach my arm around to hold the front of the rifle by the bipod to help steady my aim. With the DPMS uppered rifle I had to take the bipod off and shoot from a sandbag since it's forarm is shorter and wouldn't fit on the carpeted wooden block. I found the sandbags to be quite a bit steadier and I plan to do further testing later at 50 yards where the range has concrete benches.

I did the most testing with the YHM rifle. I liked that the previous tests had been done with Federal Bulk pack ammo, but since most sources for that ammo have dried up and I find my personal stock running low, I held off on the 150 shot groups. I instead did several 10 shot groups and a 20 shot group. Also I read the want for testing with more accurate ammo. I do have CCI standard velocity and some Wolf ME on hand so I tested with those, as well as some Federal Auto Match, Eley Sport, and Aguila Sniper Sub Sonic 60gr ammo to try in the 1:9 barrel.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/AmmoForTesting.jpg

I found that most of my groups had a flier or two in them. The target and aimpoint I used was very tiny and after hours of testing and staring through the scope my vision began to blur. On the first target I marked the aimpoint I used, the thicker intersection of the grid at the bottom of the target. I used this so that I wouldn't shoot out my aimpoint. It seemed to work pertty well, but I'm not sure if some of my fliers were possibly due to me aiming at another intersection on the target... For my next batch of targets I'm going to remove the grid except for a few intersecting lines so that I'll be less confused. The grid lines are 1/2" apart and intersect at the bulls-eyes, the rings are 1/4" from eachother. Also I shot at least 10 rounds of each ammmo off target in between brands in order to attempt to foul the barrel to that type a little.

Enough Talking, lets see some targets!

YHM Upper - Federal Value Pack and Federal Auto Match
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/YHM22Groups1.jpg
The left four targets were shot with Federal Value Pack, the bottom-middle group being a 20 round group. The right two are shot with Federal Auto Match, the bottom target being a 20 round group. The rest of the targets on the page are 10 round groups. Group sizes are written next to the targets. I made two measurements for some of the targets, the meansurement on the left being the unbiased largest measurement of the group, then I subtract the width of a bullet holes I averaged, .202, and get the center-to-center measurement for the group. The second sets of numbers on the right are the measurement of the group WITHOUT the fliers.

YHM Upper - Eley Sport, Aguila SSS
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/YHM22Groups2.jpg
This target is the same as the other one but Eley Sport on the left four targets, and Aguila SSS on the right two. The top-middle target is 20 rounds, and the bottom-right target is 20 rounds. Otherwise the rest are 10. The first 5 shots of the Aguila SSS on the top-right target went into a nice group inside the bulls-eye, and I was tempted to leave it as a 5 shot group, but I shot the other 5 anyway and opened the group up as you can see.


YHM Upper - CCI Standard Velocity and Wolf ME
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/YHM22Groups3.jpg
Here's where this upper really started to shine. Both the CCI and Wolf are a very nice wax covered lead bullet, which I was leery about shooting through this conversion, since it has a gas port where the gunk could possibly build up... I still havn't cleaned this rifle since taking it to the range so we'll see how bad it is... Anyway you can see that even the 1:9 twist does a decent job on these. The top-middle target is 20 rounds, and the bottom-right target is 20 rounds. Otherwise the rest are 10. These groups seemed to be round enough that I didn't see any of the shots as being fliers more than another so I just took one measurement.


DPMS Upper - Federal Value Pack and Wolf ME
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090814/DPMSGroups1.jpg
The DPMS dedicated upper really surprised me with it's accuracy. I guess having such a heavy bull barrel and the correct twist it really shouldn't have, but it did. The Federal Value Pack ammo shot very well and the Wolf just blew me away. Zeroing it off target, all the shots went through one hole in a shoot-n-see target. I just shot the one 10 round group in the bottom-right corner with it since this ammo isn't cheap. Again with the Federal I had fliers so I made two measurements, the one on the left being the main group, and the one on the right being the total size including the fliers.

I really hope you all can see the group sizes on the targets. This is enough writting for me for now, if you can't see it then maybe I'll throw it into a spreadsheet or something so I can copy it here easier...

Also I ordered a Spikes dedicated upper with a LW barrel and fake can so when I get that in I'll be doing more :)

Wow, Cool, you guys are giving professional reports. Thanx for the great write ups. I appreciate your posts as I'm sure everybody that reads them will.

I understand the concern over ammo supply. When I started this, I had about 40,000 rounds of Federal Bulk stocked up.  That's one of the reason I did such big groups (150 rounds). It's establishes a baseline, for plinking accuracy. It shows how many times you can hope to kill a beer can at 25 yards, That's important.  I really didn't expect to continue to the point of shooting dedicated rifles but as we all know, this is addictive....

The 5, 10 or even 20 shot groups are where the dedicated uppers really shine. Now we're not talking plinking, Once I can find some target grade ammo, soon, Please... I'll get on board with more precise shooting and reports, hopefully some at 50 yards.

Thanx again,
Spec

In Hawaii the Wolf Match Target and SK is $63 a brick - a year ago it was $47.   I hear you about the Wolf Match Extra - here it's $90 per brick.

Nice shooting and thanks.

MikeS1970 - Wow, prices sure have gone up, and if the price alone isn't enough, shipping on top of the price is just nuts. I was looking and finally found some Federal Bulk at an online store back east someplace and they wanted $57 to ship me a case.... Sure it's heavy, but I guess they still havn't heard of flat rate boxes....

Anyway, I went to the range again today. This time trying the DPMS upper at 50 yards. I've got to say, I'm very disapointed in my results. I didn't clean the rifle since the last trip and I swaped the upper onto the lower that I had the YHM upper on, the lower with the A2 stock on it. I figured that would ride the bags better than the carbine stock. I used a Hart front rifle rest and a long eared rear bag. The setup wasn't ideal, I think I need my short eared bag for the rear. It seemed like just the tip of the buttstock touched the bag, so that could have accounted for some of the shots. Overall my groups seemed to be stringing vertically, dispite a switching crosswind. I'm not sure what's the culpret here. I tried the Wolf ME, Eley Sport and CCI standard Velocity ammos and they all seemed to string vertically. The Eley seemed to be the most consistant, maybe the barrel just prefers that ammo... I'll have to refine my bench technique for the AR and try again.

Again these targets were shot at 50 yards with a dedicated DPMS 16" Bull barrel upper using a lower with an A2 stock and RRA two stage NM trigger. The winds were switchy and gusty as they usually are in the afternoon at my range ( I should have got going earlier...) I used a sightron 6-24 set at 24x for testing.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090819/IMG_8710.jpg
You can see that it started out promising and then just went to hell. I didn't even bother measuring groups on this, since there really isn't a group present, but for reference the center circle is 1/2" in diameter and ever ring is 1/4" larger on each side (increasing by 1/2" in diameter for each circle).

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/mustanggreg66/Images4Forums/ARs/Targets/20090819/IMG_8711.jpg

MustangGreg66 your results are very similar to mine.  I have the same 16" bull barrel dedicated 22 DPMS upper with a lower using a RRA NM trigger.  My rifle seems to shoot HV CCI mini mags the best and  most consistently.  Strangely my Savage MK II BV seems to like lead rimfire ammo the best.  From my experience semi auto 22 rifles are very picky about ammo.  I have a KKF dedicated upper with 1-16 inch twist free floated barrel and it shoots Aguila SE 40 grain copper clad HV the best.  I've tried Eley 10X and Wolf MT in the DPMS and KKF and never got as good as accuracy as I got in the Savage.  For some reason my Savage MK II doesn't like copper clad HV but shoots standard and HV lead bullets the best.  I don't know if the Savage has a different land and groove to the auto rifles or its the chamber.  All three rifles have comparable triggers and I use Harris bipod on the bench with sandbags under the butt.  From my experience 50 yards is the sweet spot for comparing groups with the 22 rimfire.  50 yards gives a good overall indicator of what a rifle ammo combo will be capable of.  To me 100 yard groups tend to be affected more by wind and target lighting due to shadows and haze.   I only use 3X9 and 2.5X10 scopes on my 22 so this might be part of my problem for shooting groups at 100 yards.   This is great thread keep posting.  I'm sure all of us can glean some info from other experience.

Thats a very good point. I've never had a gun vertically group so bad. Usually when a gun doesn't like an ammo it just shoots it everywhere, and until now I'd yet to see one of my guns that didn't shoot the wolf well. I guess it's something new all the time with these things. More testing at 50 yards is definitly called for here. I think testing off a bipod and sandbags might actually be better for these rifles, I just couldn't get it to ride the bags very well. I'll have to try that and see if it helps.

I'd agree with you about the 50 yard thing. 25 is close enough so that if your gun shoots well it should be under 1/2" and really tight groups to the point where thrown shots are more shooter related than anything. I have a Win 52D that I shoot at 100 yards and it's just amazing. Without wind it is capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards, but as soon as the wind picks up, those turn into 2" groups if I'm not careful. 50 yards seems to be about right for rimfire, the wind doesn't effect it too drastically and groups tend to open up a little so that you can see the potential of the riflle and not just the shooter.

All that being said, 25 yards seems to be a great distance for testing these conversion kits. They're not shooting bughole groups so you can tell, 25yards is enough to test the rifle's capability with these and not just the shooter. For the dedicated uppers I think 50 yards is a good distance however. You could see with mine, nice tight groups aat 25 yards, mayhem at 50...

MustangGreg66 I wondered if my vertical stringing was because of inconsistent velocity.  The Wolf MT would barely cycle my semi-auto AR 22's and I'm not sure the bolt was going completely closed.  I use amplified ear muffs and the report usually didn't sound as loud from shot to shot when I get vertical stringing.  The only other time I noticed vertical stringing was on my Savage when the stock was not tight.  I wonder if your sandbag rest could have contributed to the stringing.  All I know is it doesn't take much movement on the rifle to blow a group.  I tried to determine if I was getting inconsistent hammer blows on the spent brass.  I couldn't tell anything  about the hammer strikes and the vertical stringing groups from looking at the spent brass (no bulged cases & good firing pin marks).  I've shot ammo out of the same box in my Savage and didn't encounter the stringing.  Its possible its the difference in the chamber or rifling.  Regardless of the cause its still puzzling when the vertical stringing occurs with lighter target ammo and not the HV copper clad?

This is what I fired at 25 yards today. A Ban Period Colt 1 IN 7" Twist, H-Bar Match Target with a Spike's 22 Conversion. Several people had requested that I do this test with Aguila 60gr SSS. They were concerned about a 1 in 7" being worthy of buying a conversion. I threw this whole setup together, didn't  know if it would even fire. The Colt has a slightly notched hammer. I got the rifle used and have never fired it. The scope was one that I picked up 2nd hand for $15.00 and it was involved in the fiasco I had with the compensator's earlier in this thread. I just "By Chance" found the SSS the other day $7.99 for a box of 50. Don't worry, it can be had for less, just not here.

Man, was I shocked with the results:

An onlooker gave me 10 rounds of Aguila 30gr to try. He has 1 in 7" and 1 in 8" twist rifles and tons of 30gr Aguila. He was so happy with the group, he's calling Spike's the first chance he gets to order a conversion. I didn't include the group because onlookers totally screwed the center up looking it over and passing it around. People are Idiots at times. I'd estimate that it was similar in size to the 20 shot group done with Aguila 60gr bullets..  Not Bad...

The Federal grouped better than  I expected. The 5 shot group was 1-1/4"  and when I fired 20 shots, 6 hits were off the target center at 8 O Clock. max spread was 3".  Still better than I've ever done with a 1 in 7" twist barrel using Federal Bulk.

CCI strung out in the 5 shot group to 1-3/8" while the 20 round group was at 1-1/4".  ????????

The Aguila 60gr SSS ( Sub Sonic Sniper ) was a serious shock... The first 20 shot group was with me still adjusting the scope for the ammo, That measured 1-1/8" even with the 2 on the right. The 5 shot group looks much worse than the actual hits, the bullets took a lot of black with them. Worst to worst is 5/8" actual... The bottom 20 round group is 1-1/8". Not Bad, At All....

Thoughts: I've never tried a 1 in 7" twist or even a 1 in 9" twist rifle with the Spike's ( O-Ringed ) Conversion,  I also never fired groups as tight with a 1 in 7" twist as even the Federal did. The CCI was a big improvement on the 20 shot group, all hits were on the target center. Don't have a clue what happened with the CCI 5 shot group. The Aguila SSS is a weird round, it's all bullet and a tiny little case smaller than a 22 short. Obviously works great in this twist rate. I pretty much watched the hits on the target, it was shooting that consistently accurate. Smells like Burning Camel Shit though.

Spec

Wow that shot really well with the standard ammo. Interesting. I never had much luck with my pinned 14.5" 1/7 and ciener kit.




 

People bitched about the O-Rings.

badazzar15 told us they were very special.

Think I'll be really careful with them from now on.... And, Have spares.....

Added: I've been asked to repeat some of the testing with the O-Rings Off the chamber adapter. It's gonna be a while before I can get back to doing that. I have a design project and some other testing that are going to take my time for a while and have to come first. Anyone who can pick up this slack for me till I can get back to do it? Test the Aguila SSS 60gr using a Spike's Conversion at 25 yards with and with and without the O-Rings installed....

Spec

Took my new Spikes dedicated upper with Loather Walther barrel to the range yesterday. It seems to like CCI standard velocity ammo about as good as anything as far as grouping goes. I know Spikes test with Federal Bulk Pack ammo, so I really loaded up on a very large amount of this but I had alot of rounds not fire but primer was struck on the Federal, everything else did fine ,no problems. I was shooting from 50 yards and  it seemed to group fairly good. Thanks to SpecOps-13 for his postings, alot of good info from him.


50 yards with CCI Standard Velocity 22LR
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214/buckmaster07/08-26-2009073128AM.jpg

My Setup.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214/buckmaster07/1e98571d.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214/buckmaster07/6e9d7752.jpg

Wow that is really good shooting Shooting_Sigs.  Was that the best group of the day or will your Lothar Walther barrel do that consistently with CCI standard velocity.  I figured that group was will under 1/2 inch c to c and was it a 5 shot group?  I guess I need to test some CCI standard velocity in my rifles.  Thanks for posting.