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1928A1
I shoot my suppressor wet and yes its OK.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 6:07:52 PM
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 11:10:47 PM by 1928A1]
Ok, long post so here goes.

I bought the LRM 169 upper a while back and first want to say that Lee Minor of LRM (the owner) is a fantastic person to work with over the phone and has offered me stellar service. The LRM upper is a 9mm upper for the M16 (I say for the M16, because if you don't put it on a full auto, then you must register a SBR; LRM does make a 16inch barrel version to avoid this). Its barrel length is 12.75 inches long as per the Form 4, however I am pretty sure that this includes both the barrel and the baffle stack. The LRM upper retails for $1,175 and comes with the integrally suppressed upper, bolt, charging handle, buffer, mag block and one magazine(a modified Uzi magazine). Its finished in John Norrell's Moly Resin finish (mine is done to match my lower half and is not typical of the way the upper ships from LRM). The suppressor cannot be moved to any other firearm with ease. The handguard is the Olympic Arms FRISH handguard. The LRM has a ported barrel. This allows the shooter to utilize cheap 115 grain 9mm ammo. The ports, simply holes drilled into the barrel to bleed off gas, slow the bullet down below the sound barrier. This works with MOST commercial ammo, as per the manual you can get a few shots that will be transsonic or supersonic with hot loaded ammo or very cold temperatures , just change brands. S&B is pretty hot. The speed of sound is supposed to be aroun 1130 feet per second at 60 degees f at sea level. Every degree colder the FPS number drops.

The LRM looks like this:






I purchased a Talon/Trinity system a year or so after the LRM. It is produced by Gemtech and once again, let me say that Gemtech service is impeccable. The workmanship is super as well. The Talon is the Gemtech name for the 9mm upper. The Trinity is the 5.6 oz suppressor that screws onto the 5 inch barrel on the upper. The 5 inch barrel is not ported. This requires the use of subsonic 9mm ammo. There is plenty of subsonic ammo on the market from 140 to 200 grains and everything in between. The Talon upper costs $625 and the Trinity suppressor costs $510. The Talon does NOT come with a bolt, charging handle, mag block, buffer, or magazine. The Trinity suppressor can be used (with separate adapters) on the MP5, the Beretta and Glock 9mm pistols, MAC's, UZIs and about anything else you can think of in 9mm or 380. (The Trinity is factory rated for 22 rimfire, but I highly recommend AGAINST this as 22 rimfire is filthy and you run the risk of filling up the suppressor with carbon/lead than can't be soaked out). The portability is one of the reasons I opted for this suppressor. The handguard is a GG&G and is made for Gemtech with the name on the side. Its user changeable with respect to rails and railcover, etc...

The Talon/Trinity looks like this:






Now to compare:





The first thing I noticed is the Talon/Trinity is much lighter, smaller and shorter. I noticed that the LRM upper is just a regular upper, while the Talon uses the correct 635 SMG upper. The difference is in the hole for the gas port. The Talon has no such hole as the 9mm Colt Submachine gun does not need a separate gas pipe to help unlock and blow the bolt rearward after a cartridge is spent like the 223/556. On the LRM, this allows for extra crud to get inside the upper. Note that BOTH suppressor blow back crud into the uppers. Keep in mind that this is a VERY "nit picky" thing to notice. It does not affect functioning of the upper. As for price I think the LRM is a better deal because you get everything you need to make the gun work when you pick it up. With the Talon, you would need a bolt, charging handle, mag block, etc...

I tested both uppers with different ammunition for ballistics and foot pounds of energy. Here are the results:

LRM UPPER:
S&B 140gr Subsonic: 853.98 fps with 226.76 ft lbs
Special K 147 gr Sub: 835.65 fps with 178.36 ft lbs
Independence 115gr: 1041.8 fps with 277.21 ft lbs

TALON/TRINITY:
S&B 140gr Subsonic: 943.76 fps with 276.95 ft lbs
Special K 147 gr Sub: 977.50 fps with 288.78 ft lbs
Independence 115gr: 1147.6 fps with 336.38 ft lbs (broke the sound barrier and was LOUD)

Shooting 115gr ammo in the Talon/Trinity system defeats the purpose of a suppressor as the supersonic crack is loud. I only did this for comparison. As you can see the shooting subsonic ammo in the LRM (while quieter than shooting 115 grain stuff) takes too much off of the ammo for it to do its job. However, when you shoot the 115 grain stuff in the LRM it delivers about the same ft lbs as the subsonic ammo out of the Talon/Trinity.

Which one is louder/quieter? The quietest possible configuration between the two is the LRM shooting Special K. The LRM has a first round pop, but its not as loud as the Trinity’s first round pop. The Trinity is 1.25 inches outside diameter by 6.5 inches long. The LRM is 1.5 inches outside diameter by 12.75 inches long so this can account for the difference in first round pop. The LRM can eat more gas than the smaller, lighter Trinity can.

Now I have included videos for everyone to see and to make thier own minds up about what is louder/quieter/better. At the end of the LRM videos, I shoot full auto with a slow fire buffer and I shoot the Talon with the faster fire buffer. The videos are quicktime. They are rather large and are around 30 seconds each. I had the camera about 25 yards to the left and forward of me shooting so as to help get a better picture of what the suppressors sound like. This is not perfect and does not represent EXACTLY what they sound like. This is merely a casual test done in my backyard on a Sunday afternoon. The wind was blowing a bit too. However, I think that this is a reasonable group of videos to show some differences. I included a suppressed 10/22 and a suppressed M16 for comparison. The best way to compare videos is to save them to your hard drive, open two at a time side by side and alternate using the slider control and go by that. I have no video editing software so I am sorry about that. If you don't compare them side by side, you wont hear a huge difference, but its there.

LRM upper shooting 115 grain Independence 9mm ammo
LRM upper shooting 147 grain "Special K"
Talon/Trinity upper shooting 147 grain "Special K"
Talon/Trinity upper shooting 140 grain S&B Subsonic
Talon/Trinity upper shooting 115 grain Independence 9mm ammo (supersonic)


Now the other two videos:
Norrell's 10/22 suppressed rifle
M16 with Gemtech M496D suppressor 14.5 inch barrel with SS109


That's a GREAT suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
RenegadeX
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Posted: 10/30/2005 6:32:46 PM
Nice report, thanks.
1928A1
I shoot my suppressor wet and yes its OK.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 6:54:17 PM
Your welcome. Glad you like it.

That's a GREAT suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
Irishfly
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Posted: 10/30/2005 7:12:58 PM
Nice report. It sounded like the LRM setup with 115gr was transonic too. It seemed alot louder than the 147gr stuff. Probably just starting to break barrier but not as much as on the Gemtech setup. Thanks for the report. I wish I could find a FFHG that was 2" or bigger ID so that I could make my AWC Mk9 fit up under the guards. Stuck at 10 1/2" right now.


Debo
1928A1
I shoot my suppressor wet and yes its OK.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 7:50:33 PM

Originally Posted By Irishfly:
Nice report. It sounded like the LRM setup with 115gr was transonic too. It seemed alot louder than the 147gr stuff. Probably just starting to break barrier but not as much as on the Gemtech setup. Thanks for the report. I wish I could find a FFHG that was 2" or bigger ID so that I could make my AWC Mk9 fit up under the guards. Stuck at 10 1/2" right now.


Debo



The LRM was not transsonic. It would have been way louder if it was. The LRM with 115 grain is going to be louder than subsonic out of the same upper because there is more powder to burn.

Glad you liked the report.
That's a GREAT suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
SOT_II
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Posted: 10/30/2005 8:14:16 PM
You had me at "I bought". Great report and nice pictures and video...prolly one of the best reports I've ever seen.
1928A1
I shoot my suppressor wet and yes its OK.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 8:43:31 PM

Originally Posted By SOT_II:
You had me at "I bought". Great report and nice pictures and video...prolly one of the best reports I've ever seen.



Thanks
That's a GREAT suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
David_Hineline
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Posted: 10/30/2005 9:03:40 PM
Special K is weak and loaded as such to try and make things quieter, I would jack the 147s up to closer the sound barrier like the 115ns are.

Regarding the volume difference of the two cans, I tried my Evolution 9mm on my M16-9mm and I felt it was too low a volume for FA fire, I got a lot of smoke back through the action into the face, did you notice a difference in smoke face between the Gemtech and the LRM uppers?
Class 3 shooters blow thier load faster and with just one pull on the trigger
1928A1
I shoot my suppressor wet and yes its OK.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 9:41:22 PM

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:did you notice a difference in smoke face between the Gemtech and the LRM uppers?


No, I have not noticed anything signficant so far. The Gemtech is new, and will take some time, so I may have to revise that later. The LRM has not offered any real problems like that. The smoke that you see on the videos is leaving the ejection port under force, partially being deflected by that large rubber bullet deflector on the side. It was windy, so that helped push the smoke away even faster. I will keep this in mind in the future and post back on it.

If you uploaded 147 grain ammo to around 1040 or so, the ft lbs would be over 350, that would be pretty good. You would get more recoil and faster rpms too. Tradeoffs. I guess it all depends on what you are shooting at.

That's a GREAT suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
Gunbert
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:16:31 PM

Originally Posted By Irishfly:
Nice report. It sounded like the LRM setup with 115gr was transonic too. It seemed alot louder than the 147gr stuff. Probably just starting to break barrier but not as much as on the Gemtech setup. Thanks for the report. I wish I could find a FFHG that was 2" or bigger ID so that I could make my AWC Mk9 fit up under the guards. Stuck at 10 1/2" right now.


Debo



I'm doing the same thing with my MK9. Kurts Kustom firearms makes an oversize handgard that will accept a 2"OD suppressor. He used to advertize here, but I haven't seen him lately.
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Irishfly
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:33:30 PM

Kurts Kustom firearms makes an oversize handgard that will accept a 2"OD suppressor



You just made my day.

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Dan0341
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Posted: 10/30/2005 11:47:10 PM
1928A1, pics look great!


Originally Posted By Irishfly:

Kurts Kustom firearms makes an oversize handgard that will accept a 2"OD suppressor


You just made my day.

Debo



I have an AWC MK9 and use a 2 inch handguard with the suppressor. This has worked extremely well. Maybe another alternative? For more info and pics, click on my link: home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/id4.html

Dan
tony_k
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Posted: 10/30/2005 11:54:00 PM
1928A1, thanks for the very detailed report. Wish we had more such comparisons.

I'm a BIG fan on Gemtech products, and at one point had an old-style TalonSD on order (I cancelled it and moved the funds to my deposit on the Shrike, which says a lot about my own decision-making abilities).

But since right now my only integrally suppressed 9mm M16 upper is an M169, I found the most useful comparison the one used in the real-world: 115-gr in the M169 vs. Special K in the Talon/Trinity. From your videos, the sound signature was close enough to be identical. The energy was equally close: 277.21 foot-pounds vs. 288.78 foot pounds. And as you said, the M169 is cheaper to buy, and from my experience Special K runs about 50% higher in cost than quality 115-gr. supersonic.

The Talon/Trinity wins the size contest, hands down. It also has more flexibility (though in my case, since I have four other 9mm subgun suppressors, that's not an issue). The M169 appears to win the cost contest both initially and for "ammo volume" shooters.

BTW, glad to see those EOTech's. IMHO, they are a perfect match for these uppers, and I've tried a lot of other big-name optics.

Again, thanks for taking the time and effort to put this review together!
This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
1928A1
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Posted: 10/31/2005 12:19:59 AM
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 12:20:28 AM by 1928A1]

Originally Posted By tony_k:
1928A1, thanks for the very detailed report. Wish we had more such comparisons.

I'm a BIG fan on Gemtech products, and at one point had an old-style TalonSD on order (I cancelled it and moved the funds to my deposit on the Shrike, which says a lot about my own decision-making abilities).

But since right now my only integrally suppressed 9mm M16 upper is an M169, I found the most useful comparison the one used in the real-world: 115-gr in the M169 vs. Special K in the Talon/Trinity. From your videos, the sound signature was close enough to be identical. The energy was equally close: 277.21 foot-pounds vs. 288.78 foot pounds. And as you said, the M169 is cheaper to buy, and from my experience Special K runs about 50% higher in cost than quality 115-gr. supersonic.

The Talon/Trinity wins the size contest, hands down. It also has more flexibility (though in my case, since I have four other 9mm subgun suppressors, that's not an issue). The M169 appears to win the cost contest both initially and for "ammo volume" shooters.

BTW, glad to see those EOTech's. IMHO, they are a perfect match for these uppers, and I've tried a lot of other big-name optics.

Again, thanks for taking the time and effort to put this review together!



And thank you Tony (and Dan) for the kind comments. It was you that helped push me over the edge when I got started in all of this towards the LRM upper. As you noted, each unit has its decided advantages over the other. I am glad I have both.

As for the EOTech's, there was never another viable choice for what I do with them. (I really use the night vision button.)

That's a GREAT 22 suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
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Posted: 10/31/2005 1:21:54 AM
That answers a lot of my questions.
TZLVredmist
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:47:57 AM
Dan0341 Were you a tube stroker?



Great write up man!!
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Posted: 10/31/2005 9:30:13 AM
Very detailed post and definately gives some good information.

Dan0341
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Posted: 10/31/2005 9:37:53 AM

Originally Posted By TZLVredmist:
Dan0341 Were you a tube stroker?



Great write up man!!



Hey, that's Mr. tube stroker to you!
1928A1
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Posted: 10/31/2005 10:20:33 AM

Originally Posted By JohnHollister:
Very detailed post and definately gives some good information.




Thanks!
That's a GREAT 22 suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
RenegadeX
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Posted: 10/31/2005 10:40:51 AM

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Special K is weak and loaded as such to try and make things quieter, I would jack the 147s up to closer the sound barrier like the 115ns are.



I have chrono'd it out of a variety of 9mm barrels. It runs around 1000 fps, which is about 50 fps slower than Winchester White Box, but faster than Federal and some others.
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Posted: 11/2/2005 9:48:51 AM
I second the LRM M-169. I know Lee personally and shoot with him all the time, and those things are amazing. Quiet, totally reliable, and what I like best is that they use normal 115 gn. ball ammo. Or, Lee can make them as 147 gn. only guns, or even adjustable where the bleedoff ports can be covered up with a threaded nut over the threaded barrel.

Ted
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Posted: 11/3/2005 9:01:10 AM
Hopefully in the next two months I will be able to post something similar for the LRM in .40 cal. My local dealer took me out to shoot it when it got his shop. Fired it side by side with an MP5 sd--the LRM was as quite or quiter with standard velocity ammo. Can't wait much longer....
Mrrogers1
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Posted: 11/3/2005 6:42:09 PM

Originally Posted By cade:
Hopefully in the next two months I will be able to post something similar for the LRM in .40 cal. My local dealer took me out to shoot it when it got his shop. Fired it side by side with an MP5 sd--the LRM was as quite or quieter with standard velocity ammo. Can't wait much longer....



I'd really like to see some of the ballistics on this setup. I don't plan on using my standard LRM for anything but paper and popper punching but I bet the .40cal version would be a great performer in the ballistic category....... but still lose in the cost efficiency category.
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SHIVAN
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Posted: 11/20/2005 4:03:32 PM
Great Review...
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Posted: 11/21/2005 4:07:38 PM
Maybe I miseed it, but if you could ONLY buy one of them, which would you buy?
When the world's a cold place, better pack your own heat.
1928A1
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Posted: 11/21/2005 9:31:35 PM

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Maybe I miseed it, but if you could ONLY buy one of them, which would you buy?



Both have strong points and weak points. The reason for the review was for the fine readers of this site to use the information to decide for yourself. I bought them both because I wanted to use them both for different reasons.
That's a GREAT 22 suppressor, but can you take it apart to clean it?
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