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Posted: 3/13/2017 9:42:19 PM EDT
Hey guys, inaugural post.  
 
I’m about to buy my first AR and looking for some help.  A few yrs ago, I decided I needed more for SHTF than handguns.  I decided at the time, an AK was the way to go--for me. Then… I shot a buddies AR.  That changed things.  It’s just plain more fun to shoot—again, for me personally, not knocking the AK.  There’s just something about the black rifle...
 
In other words, I’m taking a step (maybe a leap) onto a slippery slope (AR polygamy IS legal, right? ).  The priorities for this gun:
1.      Self-defense (home, SHTF, cqb…how can you watch the news and not be concerned??)—so the AK eventually becomes a backup gun  
2.      Range fun/practice for #1
The budget is around $800, tho for a good enuf reason, I’d consider stretching to ~$1100 (see below). I considered building; talked to that same buddy who built the AR I shot….and felt like I should buy a complete rifle for the first one, learn the platform, what I like, what i don’t.  THEN build the zombie blaster.
 
I’ve spent an embarrassing amount of time on youtube, this forum, and elsewhere researching.  I came away from that thinking what I’d probably like best is a mid length gas system, 16” barrel, collapsible stock, probably not a fancy pimped out rail (provisions to add an optic and a light would be nice w/o upgrading immediately).  Given priority 1 above, it has to be reliable, tho hopefully it’s never needed for that. 
 
What seemed to be in the sweet spot for me was Spikes, their entry level gun.  Nearly everything I read was favorable for quality/reliability. Street price around $800.  Spikes ST-15 16' Mid LE
 
But.  Couldn’t help but notice BCM was mentioned, a lot.  For sure it’s more popular.  Their entry level is going for around $1120.  BCM MID-16 MOD0    As you already know, It’s definitely touted as a quality, battle rifle that’s dependable and durable.  A few places said QC is second to none.  What I couldn’t decide, or glean from the research:    is the extra ~$300 worth it?  (Actually, ~$300 plus a BUIS, which the Spikes comes w/…an optic will be later on).  They both seem like quality rifles and I (a newbie) can’t find a lot of difference in them, beyond price and popularity.  The extra $300 would sting (heck the 800 will)…but I believe in the ‘buy once, cry once’ mantra.  (And not a big deal, but I do like the furniture better on the BCM….and for sure “BCM” beats a spider logo.)
 
I know similar "what should I get" questions are asked ad nauseum here.  Sorry.  I did search the entire forum and found good advice, but not enuf to help me tip the scales. This forum has a wealth of knowledge and experience, and in the end, THAT means more to me than specs on paper or hearsay.  So………  I’d appreciate any thoughts, opinions and especially any experience that might help.   Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 9:57:49 PM EDT
[#1]
Spikes has a good reputation and on the cheaper guns I'd say they are one of the better choices. If you are buying this as your one and only ar I'd personally buy the bcm. They have been beat to hell by various companies running carbine courses and have held up. Even if you don't want to build I'd say consider buying the upper and lower separate. That way you can spread the cost out some if needbe and if you want to upgrade the upper some(say a rail) you can once funds will allow.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:03:27 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm a big Midwest industries fan but most of their guns are a little more than 1100 except they do offer a Base model gun for a bit less. Anyway I also love bcm rifles.  If you haven't already,  google bcm filthy fourteen!
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:10:33 PM EDT
[#3]
BCM because I can't stand Spikes logos...
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 11:29:47 PM EDT
[#4]
BCM. It's the only non-Colt AR I have been happy with.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 11:54:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Maybe look at Core15...
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:13:55 AM EDT
[#6]
thanks for the feedback guys!  since BCM is getting a lot of love, i'd like to ask if you've seen this post from another forum:  BCM is overrated  ?
it does not seem consistent w/ the praise i've seen elsewhere.  ("horrid" accuracy, QC issues???) but he doesn't seem like your run of the mill troll either.  honestly, since i'm new to ARs and never built one, i don't understand or the get the significance of many of his points.  can someone help put  this in perspective; does he have any valid points i need to be concerned about?  
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 2:26:20 AM EDT
[#7]
1. The other thread you cite is not on Arfcom, so it's not real (never heard of that website actually).
2. There will always be haters, for everything.
3. The thread only lasted for 20 posts, including comments in support of BCM, so it really doesn't go anywhere.

Have never had any issues with any BCM products, ever.  The crew at BCM are stand up people.  No problem with Spikes, I have Spikes stuff, but not my preference.  

There was a thread in GD recently about BCM hooking up a police department with temporary ARs when the PD's ARs were taken as evidence in an investigation (can't find thread now).  Never heard anything like that about Spikes.  You can do your own search here on Arfcom about BCM for threads on issues or praise, mostly positive results.  This one stood out for me when I did the search.  Spikes, not as many threads, but I also didn't see negative ones jumping out.  

While the quality of the equipment is obviously first and foremost in my mind, I like knowing I am buying from a company that stands behind their products.  My vote, BCM.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 5:35:51 AM EDT
[#8]
BCM:  far from overrated.

Underrated if anything.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 8:21:03 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
BCM:  far from overrated.
Underrated if anything.
View Quote


This. I have several BCM uppers (I'm a fan of their 16" lightweight middys) and would not hesitate to buy more. If stretching your dollars, you might consider buying the BCM upper of your choice and then a complete blem BCM lower (or complete lower from another company).
Either way, purchasing your upper & lower separately will save you the Fed excise tax on new guns.

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:27:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Love my BCM Recce.  Thinking of building one and would likely use the BCM upper - so light and just feels right.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:30:01 AM EDT
[#11]
BCM
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:34:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Agree on getting the BCM upper and even building a lower.  You can build a decent milspec lower for $200 with an Aero Precision/Sionics/Sons of Liberty Gun Works/Spikes lower.  Even cheaper would be $130 for a PSA daily deal complete blem lower.  I have one with no issues
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:41:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
BCM
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:01:36 AM EDT
[#14]
I don't own a Spikes, but do own a BCM RECCE 14 and a few BCM lowers; one of which is about to be SBR'd.  Great quality from a great company.  Either would probably be fine but I'd go BCM and check the Equipment Exchange to piece together a BCM lower & upper.  Should be able to put together a complete BCM for a good price that way.  

All that said, I want to add a Spikes Dissipator to my collection.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:42:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
thanks for the feedback guys!  since BCM is getting a lot of love, i'd like to ask if you've seen this post from another forum:  BCM is overrated  ?
it does not seem consistent w/ the praise i've seen elsewhere.  ("horrid" accuracy, QC issues???) but he doesn't seem like your run of the mill troll either.  honestly, since i'm new to ARs and never built one, i don't understand or the get the significance of many of his points.  can someone help put  this in perspective; does he have any valid points i need to be concerned about?  
View Quote


He's a troll or an idiot.

As far as pinning gas blocks go it is preferred but I haven't seen one of their non-pinned ones move. Really if you dimple a barrel and install a screw on gas block you are fine(use thread locker on the screws). You can always go head and stake the screws if you want.

I personally haven't had issues removing a barrel.

2 to 4 moa is what the specs call for. Most ar-15's will not shoot moa groups. I'd wager most shoot between 1.5 and 2ish but I'm sure others with more experience can say.

I will say while it is possible both psa and bcm source some components from the same vendors I'm not buying it for everything he listed. I know my experiences with psa's lower parts kits has been less than ideal. Things like the takedown pins just don't feel as smooth and kits from bcm and companies like sionics. It is also worth saying you will find far more complaints about PSA's qc over BCM's.


This isn't to say BCM is perfect, they are not. BCM doesn't have the best rep for finish on their guns. They might show some basic dings and scratches. For the record colt and kac are the same way. All three care about it working to spec, not if it is super pretty. You do pay a bit of a premium for the bcm rifle over some others. Personally I think it is worth it. As far as upper to lower fitment I haven't seen it as an issue but they don't have the retention pin that some others have(it doesn't matter for function but I'd prefer no rattle too).

Accuracy from my experience isn't bad but isn't amazing either. I'm not sure if it is due to looser specs on purpose(to enhance reliability) or something else. The key is that they are accurate with what "mil-spec" calls for. The 3 bcm rifles I have are not free floated but I haven't personally had issues(I have a mk12 upper too but haven't shot it enough to really say how accurate it is). Now I will say I've seen some pretty accurate colt barrels before.

Someone on here or the other ar site had a few threads on barrel accuracy. I seem to remember the bcm's doing fine.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 4:22:11 PM EDT
[#16]
As to BCM's "finish":  most of my BCMs were sold by BCM as blems of some sort...and I think I found the cause of the blem on one of them (a small, barely perceptible scratch)...can't find anything wrong with any of the 10 or so others.

And I forgot to mention "Filthy 14".
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 7:36:52 PM EDT
[#17]
I have a spikes and a bcm.


If I could only choose one I would take the bcm every single time.

I don't know what voodoo magic they sprinkled on their parts but the bcm just feels like it shoots better in every possible situation.

They both have geissele ssa-e triggers and trijicon accupower 1-4 scopes but when doing drills or just having fun the bcm always feels better.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:37:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a spikes and a bcm.


If I could only choose one I would take the bcm every single time.

I don't know what voodoo magic they sprinkled on their parts but the bcm just feels like it shoots better in every possible situation.

They both have geissele ssa-e triggers and trijicon accupower 1-4 scopes but when doing drills or just having fun the bcm always feels better.
View Quote
this is one thing i was hoping for in the feedback...head to head personal experience.  thanks for the input!
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:48:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


He's a troll or an idiot.

As far as pinning gas blocks go it is preferred but I haven't seen one of their non-pinned ones move. Really if you dimple a barrel and install a screw on gas block you are fine(use thread locker on the screws). You can always go head and stake the screws if you want.

I personally haven't had issues removing a barrel.

2 to 4 moa is what the specs call for. Most ar-15's will not shoot moa groups. I'd wager most shoot between 1.5 and 2ish but I'm sure others with more experience can say.

I will say while it is possible both psa and bcm source some components from the same vendors I'm not buying it for everything he listed. I know my experiences with psa's lower parts kits has been less than ideal. Things like the takedown pins just don't feel as smooth and kits from bcm and companies like sionics. It is also worth saying you will find far more complaints about PSA's qc over BCM's.


This isn't to say BCM is perfect, they are not. BCM doesn't have the best rep for finish on their guns. They might show some basic dings and scratches. For the record colt and kac are the same way. All three care about it working to spec, not if it is super pretty. You do pay a bit of a premium for the bcm rifle over some others. Personally I think it is worth it. As far as upper to lower fitment I haven't seen it as an issue but they don't have the retention pin that some others have(it doesn't matter for function but I'd prefer no rattle too).

Accuracy from my experience isn't bad but isn't amazing either. I'm not sure if it is due to looser specs on purpose(to enhance reliability) or something else. The key is that they are accurate with what "mil-spec" calls for. The 3 bcm rifles I have are not free floated but I haven't personally had issues(I have a mk12 upper too but haven't shot it enough to really say how accurate it is). Now I will say I've seen some pretty accurate colt barrels before.

Someone on here or the other ar site had a few threads on barrel accuracy. I seem to remember the bcm's doing fine.
View Quote
thanks for taking a look at that negative post and breaking it down.  and maybe i'm looking at it wrong, but even if the accuracy is 4 moa......that's 1" at 25 yds, right?  since my first priority was self defense/cqb....that seems more than good enuf...for sure, i can't shoot anywhere near that good at 25 yds, on the run w/ moving targets.  but 4 moa still lets me have fun at the range.  and it sounds like their accuracy is better than that.  BCM keeps coming out on top, for my price range.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:57:34 PM EDT
[#20]
I love both. So get both and

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:04:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This. I have several BCM uppers (I'm a fan of their 16" lightweight middys) and would not hesitate to buy more. If stretching your dollars, you might consider buying the BCM upper of your choice and then a complete blem BCM lower (or complete lower from another company).
Either way, purchasing your upper & lower separately will save you the Fed excise tax on new guns.

Tomac
View Quote
so help me understand this option--remembering i'm new to ARs.  can i buy a 'complete' upper, and a 'complete' lower....have the lower sent to my ffl.....then all i have to do is assemble them--'assemble' meaning just put the two pins in and so, really no different than what you do to reassemble after cleaning?  and i can do this and avoid the 11% excise tax?  i looked on a few sites...i think i saw complete lowers (no more assembly needed), and the bcm site has numerous uppers and let's you configure however and add the bcg, etc.  looks like i'd only have to install the handguard, as far as, any real assembly.  am i close as to how this option would work?  someone else suggested getting the upper and lower from EE.
(btw, i personally believe choice #3, on your signature, is correct....and that changes everything....)
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:15:40 PM EDT
[#22]
YES.

Welcome to the darkside.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:16:15 PM EDT
[#23]
thanks guys, for all the feedback and help so far.  a couple of new trails suggested  i still need to look at.  but so far, it's looking like Team Bravo.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#24]
I'd say watch nutnfancy on youtube and check out his ar-15 reviews. They are long but you can try and skip to the accuracy sections.

Molon on here(and the other ar-15 forum site) has done some good accuracy testing as well on a few uppers.

I will say BCM isn't the end all be all. Most people will never run a gun hard enough to see where it and guns like colt or lmt will shine. For them the cheap gun will be great. Spikes deserves props as well as they got called out a few years ago and released their documentation showing that their stuff was getting tested like they claimed it was. I don't believe I've seen others be pushed to do that. I personally just hate their logo.

In your range I'd say the spikes should be good from what I've read about them. I'd also say look at a colt 6920 which may not have the best fit between the upper and lower or finish but should run out of the box about as hard as you could run one. That gun is around a grand. The smith and wesson moe is in your range and has a 5r barrel which should be a little more accurate and they build a good gun. I'd also say LMT but they are going to be a little higher in cost than the colt and honestly I don't think it is a better gun. It will come with the sopmod stock and a nicer rear sight(if you wanted a red dot) as it is an a2 carry handle with the handle missing. You have some new companies like sionics that look good but they haven't been tested as far as companies like bcm, colt, and lmt.

Most of the hate on BCM that I've seen is their cost vs the low end options like psa or dpms. For shooting paper it will not really matter. People on here like them as they are an end of the world type gun, something that will hold up to abuse. This is even though many will never shoot them at anything other than paper. Unless you took a carbine course or something else that will push it you would never notice the difference. For me I'd rather spend the extra cash and get the better gun even if it will not matter. Same way I don't go to harbor freight to buy tools, I'll go buy something better even though in most cases I wouldn't wear out the chinese crap.

For the record my end of the world gun would probability be my 10.5 inch lmt, not my bcm guns. I have beaten the shit out of that rifle and it just laughs at me, dripping what looks like black death because it goes so far between cleanings it isn't funny. The gun just gets oil sprayed in it from time to time(and it is shot suppressed).
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 3:52:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
thanks for taking a look at that negative post and breaking it down.  and maybe i'm looking at it wrong, but even if the accuracy is 4 moa......that's 1" at 25 yds, right?  since my first priority was self defense/cqb....that seems more than good enuf...for sure, i can't shoot anywhere near that good at 25 yds, on the run w/ moving targets.  but 4 moa still lets me have fun at the range.  and it sounds like their accuracy is better than that.  BCM keeps coming out on top, for my price range.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


He's a troll or an idiot.

As far as pinning gas blocks go it is preferred but I haven't seen one of their non-pinned ones move. Really if you dimple a barrel and install a screw on gas block you are fine(use thread locker on the screws). You can always go head and stake the screws if you want.

I personally haven't had issues removing a barrel.

2 to 4 moa is what the specs call for. Most ar-15's will not shoot moa groups. I'd wager most shoot between 1.5 and 2ish but I'm sure others with more experience can say.

I will say while it is possible both psa and bcm source some components from the same vendors I'm not buying it for everything he listed. I know my experiences with psa's lower parts kits has been less than ideal. Things like the takedown pins just don't feel as smooth and kits from bcm and companies like sionics. It is also worth saying you will find far more complaints about PSA's qc over BCM's.


This isn't to say BCM is perfect, they are not. BCM doesn't have the best rep for finish on their guns. They might show some basic dings and scratches. For the record colt and kac are the same way. All three care about it working to spec, not if it is super pretty. You do pay a bit of a premium for the bcm rifle over some others. Personally I think it is worth it. As far as upper to lower fitment I haven't seen it as an issue but they don't have the retention pin that some others have(it doesn't matter for function but I'd prefer no rattle too).

Accuracy from my experience isn't bad but isn't amazing either. I'm not sure if it is due to looser specs on purpose(to enhance reliability) or something else. The key is that they are accurate with what "mil-spec" calls for. The 3 bcm rifles I have are not free floated but I haven't personally had issues(I have a mk12 upper too but haven't shot it enough to really say how accurate it is). Now I will say I've seen some pretty accurate colt barrels before.

Someone on here or the other ar site had a few threads on barrel accuracy. I seem to remember the bcm's doing fine.
thanks for taking a look at that negative post and breaking it down.  and maybe i'm looking at it wrong, but even if the accuracy is 4 moa......that's 1" at 25 yds, right?  since my first priority was self defense/cqb....that seems more than good enuf...for sure, i can't shoot anywhere near that good at 25 yds, on the run w/ moving targets.  but 4 moa still lets me have fun at the range.  and it sounds like their accuracy is better than that.  BCM keeps coming out on top, for my price range.


Mil surplus ammo (like M193 & 855) is 4 MOA.

If you want the gun to do better than that, you'll have to use ammo that is better than that (Mk262, 318, etc.).
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 6:45:19 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so help me understand this option--remembering i'm new to ARs.  can i buy a 'complete' upper, and a 'complete' lower....have the lower sent to my ffl.....then all i have to do is assemble them--'assemble' meaning just put the two pins in and so, really no different than what you do to reassemble after cleaning?  and i can do this and avoid the 11% excise tax?  i looked on a few sites...i think i saw complete lowers (no more assembly needed), and the bcm site has numerous uppers and let's you configure however and add the bcg, etc.  looks like i'd only have to install the handguard, as far as, any real assembly.  am i close as to how this option would work?  someone else suggested getting the upper and lower from EE.
(btw, i personally believe choice #3, on your signature, is correct....and that changes everything....)
View Quote


Yes, that is correct. Purchase a complete upper, complete lower, charging handle & bolt carrier group and assemble like you would after cleaning and thus avoid the 11% excise tax.
If money is tight, you could purchase the BCM upper of your choice and a complete PSA lower (I have a couple of their complete lowers, and so far they've been 100%) and still have a decent rifle.
If money is very tight, PSA has decent uppers (although their Premium/CHF uppers would be my first choice), I have one of these and so far it's been gtg: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-1-7-melonite-pencil-profile-freedom-upper-w-out-bcg-or-ch.html

There are lots of options out there (too many?), hard part is deciding what best fits your needs and pocketbook.
HTH...

Tomac

ETA: Glad you like my sig line!
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 7:08:30 AM EDT
[#27]
BCM
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 3:41:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yes, that is correct. Purchase a complete upper, complete lower, charging handle & bolt carrier group and assemble like you would after cleaning and thus avoid the 11% excise tax.
If money is tight, you could purchase the BCM upper of your choice and a complete PSA lower (I have a couple of their complete lowers, and so far they've been 100%) and still have a decent rifle.
If money is very tight, PSA has decent uppers (although their Premium/CHF uppers would be my first choice), I have one of these and so far it's been gtg: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-1-7-melonite-pencil-profile-freedom-upper-w-out-bcg-or-ch.html

There are lots of options out there (too many?), hard part is deciding what best fits your needs and pocketbook.
HTH...

Tomac

ETA: Glad you like my sig line!
View Quote
+1
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 8:31:50 PM EDT
[#29]
I have never owned a complete Spikes rifle, but I have used their parts, and they are GTG. I do own two BCM complete rifles, and another BCM upper on a Stag lower, and the BCM stuff is top-notch. I'm just a paper puncher at the range, but if TS ever DID HTF, I would want a rugged and dependable rifle, and that is why I have the BCMs. I don't think Spikes is a bad rifle at all, (from what I have read) but I would give the edge to the BCM, given the choice between them.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 8:36:57 PM EDT
[#30]
I want to add one more thing, and I know it is beating a dead horse. I realize you said you were looking for a mid-length, but  before I'd spend the $ on a BCM (which I love) or a Spikes, (which I'm sure is a fine rifle) I would just get a Colt 6920 OEM1 and leave it at that. I saw one today on here in the EE for $699. They may even get cheaper, who knows? But that is a fine rifle at a GREAT price. It is a carbine gas system insted of a mid-length, but I would give one serious consideration. I'm not a huge Colt fanboy, because they aren't the prettiest rifles in the world, but they are reliable and accurate. And unless you are really concerned about appearance, they make one of the best rifles around.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 9:36:36 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
I want to add one more thing, and I know it is beating a dead horse. I realize you said you were looking for a mid-length, but  before I'd spend the $ on a BCM (which I love) or a Spikes, (which I'm sure is a fine rifle) I would just get a Colt 6920 OEM1 and leave it at that. I saw one today on here in the EE for $699. They may even get cheaper, who knows? But that is a fine rifle at a GREAT price. It is a carbine gas system insted of a mid-length, but I would give one serious consideration. I'm not a huge Colt fanboy, because they aren't the prettiest rifles in the world, but they are reliable and accurate. And unless you are really concerned about appearance, they make one of the best rifles around.
View Quote
thanks for the input!  honestly the 6920 is where i started w/ all this.  it is the rifle that is compared to most--used as a benchmark--for other rifles in my price range, even above.  my FFL pushed it.  but what concerns me...unfounded our not...is what happened recently to the company:  Losing the gov. contract, filing bankruptcy, and the layoffs.  i think i heard they were re-awarded a split contract in 2015 along w/ FN, but apparently they are in a lot of debt.  so?  i'm just concerned  their recent quality has taken a hit from all that. but yeah, i'm open to that rifle otherwise, just look at the history alone--literally battle tested (the m16 and m4s anyway). i don't care about the cosmetics  (not totally true...has a cool logo....NOT spikes IMHO).  have you heard anything about recent  quality (last yr or two), for the 6920?  even tho $700 is pretty incredible for the oem1, like most of us, gotta be careful about where i invest hard earned $.  just being prudent, but i'm open; i'd love to hear some experience from recent buyers.

and the oem1.....it looks like all i need to add is a stock, handguard, and a rear BUIS...is that correct?
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 9:48:08 PM EDT
[#32]
BCM Recce is an amazing value
Link Posted: 3/16/2017 12:08:19 AM EDT
[#33]
By most accounts BCM makes a solid rifle. As does Spikes. As do many others. The whole mantra that only a small set of ARs can handle aggressive use is largely overblown.

Of the two proposed choices I'd go with Spikes. Not the biggest fan of their standard logo, but the crusader is cool. I'm sure BCM makes a good rifle, but I don't foresee buying one anytime soon. Personally, I just can't stand the behavior of one of their dealers (who happens to be banned here on ARF) that is pretty active in a competing forum. So, it'd be hard for me to support a company that associates themselves with such an arrogant, condescending, loudmouth. Some will likely know who I'm referring to. And I'm not trying to name and shame. Just like to put it out there for any manufacturers watching that the conduct of their employees and business partners matters to some consumers.

Others mention Colt, and they too make good rifles. But, kind of like BCM, I avoid them. They pretty much wrote off the public for decades, assuming the military contract would always be there. At times they even seemed hostile towards consumers. Again, with all the other solid choices out there, I'll spend my money elsewhere.
Link Posted: 3/16/2017 9:08:02 AM EDT
[#34]
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thanks for the input!  honestly the 6920 is where i started w/ all this.  it is the rifle that is compared to most--used as a benchmark--for other rifles in my price range, even above.  my FFL pushed it.  but what concerns me...unfounded our not...is what happened recently to the company:  Losing the gov. contract, filing bankruptcy, and the layoffs.  i think i heard they were re-awarded a split contract in 2015 along w/ FN, but apparently they are in a lot of debt.  so?  i'm just concerned  their recent quality has taken a hit from all that. but yeah, i'm open to that rifle otherwise, just look at the history alone--literally battle tested (the m16 and m4s anyway). i don't care about the cosmetics  (not totally true...has a cool logo....NOT spikes IMHO).  have you heard anything about recent  quality (last yr or two), for the 6920?  even tho $700 is pretty incredible for the oem1, like most of us, gotta be careful about where i invest hard earned $.  just being prudent, but i'm open; i'd love to hear some experience from recent buyers.

and the oem1.....it looks like all i need to add is a stock, handguard, and a rear BUIS...is that correct?
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I want to add one more thing, and I know it is beating a dead horse. I realize you said you were looking for a mid-length, but  before I'd spend the $ on a BCM (which I love) or a Spikes, (which I'm sure is a fine rifle) I would just get a Colt 6920 OEM1 and leave it at that. I saw one today on here in the EE for $699. They may even get cheaper, who knows? But that is a fine rifle at a GREAT price. It is a carbine gas system insted of a mid-length, but I would give one serious consideration. I'm not a huge Colt fanboy, because they aren't the prettiest rifles in the world, but they are reliable and accurate. And unless you are really concerned about appearance, they make one of the best rifles around.
thanks for the input!  honestly the 6920 is where i started w/ all this.  it is the rifle that is compared to most--used as a benchmark--for other rifles in my price range, even above.  my FFL pushed it.  but what concerns me...unfounded our not...is what happened recently to the company:  Losing the gov. contract, filing bankruptcy, and the layoffs.  i think i heard they were re-awarded a split contract in 2015 along w/ FN, but apparently they are in a lot of debt.  so?  i'm just concerned  their recent quality has taken a hit from all that. but yeah, i'm open to that rifle otherwise, just look at the history alone--literally battle tested (the m16 and m4s anyway). i don't care about the cosmetics  (not totally true...has a cool logo....NOT spikes IMHO).  have you heard anything about recent  quality (last yr or two), for the 6920?  even tho $700 is pretty incredible for the oem1, like most of us, gotta be careful about where i invest hard earned $.  just being prudent, but i'm open; i'd love to hear some experience from recent buyers.

and the oem1.....it looks like all i need to add is a stock, handguard, and a rear BUIS...is that correct?


I understand your concerns, but I haven't heard of any real QC issues with Colt in recent times. You will need a buttstock, trigger guard, sight of your choice and a forend hanguard to make the OEM1 usable.
Link Posted: 3/16/2017 11:14:10 AM EDT
[#35]
I am one of the minority here that actually prefers a carbine length gas system. I don't hang a lot of stuff on one, and the carbine just looks less cluttered. I'm no expert, but I have read that the carbine gas system will cycle low-powered ammo better than a mid-length if you are using a pinned 14.5" barrel, of which I have several. I actually sold a 16" barreled BCM upper that I had. I didn't have any problems with it; I just prefer the carbine.
Link Posted: 3/18/2017 10:57:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Bcm

Best around
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 10:38:53 PM EDT
[#37]
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I am one of the minority here that actually prefers a carbine length gas system. I don't hang a lot of stuff on one, and the carbine just looks less cluttered. I'm no expert, but I have read that the carbine gas system will cycle low-powered ammo better than a mid-length if you are using a pinned 14.5" barrel, of which I have several. I actually sold a 16" barreled BCM upper that I had. I didn't have any problems with it; I just prefer the carbine.
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It's true, but I have rarely heard a middy having issues shooting any type of decent ammo
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 10:53:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Both are fine rifles. I wouldn't hesitate to use either for personal defense.
The spikes gives you some wiggle room for an optic, as far as $$ goes.
If money is not a concern, go BCM.
I have a spikes 14.5" middy upper and it is awesome.
It is my go to rifle, should some crazy shtf scenario happen.
Just shop within your comfortable budget.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 11:05:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Wait for the summer sales and get a Daniel Defense.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 3:54:17 PM EDT
[#40]
The BCM might cost more but you can never go wrong with it, I have a 16" recce and out of all the ar's me and my friends have (daniel m4's, wilson recon, colts, S&W's, LWRC, stag) they're all jealous after shooting my BCM because it handles so well. The BCM might cost a little more than a spikes but 100% worth the extra cost.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 11:08:57 PM EDT
[#41]
I only have one piece of advice - you'll never appreciate a Mercedes until you've driven a Ford.

I would go with the Spikes first and upgrade later when money allows it. It will be fun and go bang every time.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:49:42 PM EDT
[#42]
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The BCM might cost more but you can never go wrong with it, I have a 16" recce and out of all the ar's me and my friends have (daniel m4's, wilson recon, colts, S&W's, LWRC, stag) they're all jealous after shooting my BCM because it handles so well. The BCM might cost a little more than a spikes but 100% worth the extra cost.
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I couldn't agree more with his statement. BCM All the way! I purchased a Recce 16 KMR and like he stated, BCM knocked it out of the park with this one.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 4:50:47 PM EDT
[#43]
 
What seemed to be in the sweet spot for me was Spikes, their entry level gun.  Nearly everything I read was favorable for quality/reliability. Street price around $800.  Spikes ST-15 16' Mid LE
 
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I have owned numerous ar's from budget to high end and this would be my choice. I currently own one of these and would not hesitate to buy another. If I could keep only one of my ar's, it would be a spikes.

Just a note on the accuracy results. That can vary from one rifle to another. Even from the same manufacturer. Each barrel could like something a little different. I have seen some ar's shoot sub 2" with wolf and surplus ammo. Even if it only shoots 6" groups, that would still be acceptable combat accuracy. Unless you have a super accurate match barrel, don't waste money on expensive ammo.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 9:24:08 PM EDT
[#44]
BCM, quality rifle, quality company.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 12:09:38 AM EDT
[#45]
Lots of love for BCM.  a couple of questions.
  • the Recce model  has been recommended a few times.  sootch and mrgunsngear sure like it.  what's the real difference compared to their entry model  BCM® MID-16 Mod 0 ?  i get the recce has the sexy free float rail, maybe a better buttstock.  but is the barrel, bcg, etc, what makes it go bang everytime, is that the same?  i'm asking cuz
    the recce is a few hundred more (16").
  • flip up sights.  what are the suggestions for good buis?  i see magpul mbus and troy recommended a lot.  also saw where the troy bent in a drop test.  eventually i'll 
    add a red dot most likely--so a backup at that point.


Link Posted: 3/31/2017 5:22:02 PM EDT
[#46]
I like the magpul PRO. They are strong and very low profile
Link Posted: 4/1/2017 1:48:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Lots of love for BCM.  a couple of questions.
  • the Recce model  has been recommended a few times.  sootch and mrgunsngear sure like it.  what's the real difference compared to their entry model  BCM® MID-16 Mod 0 ?  i get the recce has the sexy free float rail, maybe a better buttstock.  but is the barrel, bcg, etc, what makes it go bang everytime, is that the same?  i'm asking cuz
    the recce is a few hundred more (16").
  • flip up sights.  what are the suggestions for good buis?  i see magpul mbus and troy recommended a lot.  also saw where the troy bent in a drop test.  eventually i'll 
    add a red dot most likely--so a backup at that point.


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100% go for bcm
Quote from BCM themselves to answer your first question:

"Middy is the type of gas system (ie: between rifle and carbine length)
And RECCE is a term we use to describe our configuration that uses a low profile gas block with an handguard that extends over and past the gas block.

So a upper/rifle could be a Middy & a RECCE. "

I would recommend getting the recce, I have the 16" recce and it feels like pure butter, best rifle I've ever had in my hands and I've basically shot most of the competitors out there.

As for iron sights, I prefer the magpul mbus because they're cheap: less than $80 for the set, and they do just as good a job as MBUS PRO/troy battlesights. (although I would still prefer mbus PRO's over them because they're a big tougher and a lot smaller) If you're getting a red dot soon then I would go for the regular mbus unless you have the extra 100 bucks and really want the other sights.
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