Hey guys, new here. Been viewing the forum off and on for years. Just decided to join.

I do have a question about a Colt AR value and some options on returning it back to original.. I recently purchased a Colt AR-15 A2 Sporter II. The gentleman I purchased it from, bought it new in 1988 and ( I have the original manual and sales receipt) he said about 7 - 10 years ago decided he wanted a flat top. He purchased a Colt M4 upper (C, AF, and M4 stamps) and replaced the original upper ( He sold the original upper to fund the new one). Looks like its a small hole upper, with an big hole / small hole adapter pin being used. The rifle is in descent shape, shows some wear and needs a good cleaning. I know the value would be more if it was original, but what do you all think the value would be as is.

Also, I looked through the swap shop here and saw some A1 uppers, but no A2 big hole uppers. Any advise on finding a original big hole A2 upper.

I have heard the hammer or trigger pin on these are a different size as well. Is that true?

Thanks in advance..


http://s1182.photobucket.com/user/helodrvr/library/Colt

Nice project. I would look for big hole c7/a1 upper with a 1/7 gov. Profle barrel.hammer and trigger pins should be .154.

Big hole A2 uppers are out there, it just takes some searching. I think I remember seeing one on the EE awhile back. As far as the value, that will mainly be in the lower since the upper is not original, even if it is a Colt.
Near the top of the Retro Forum is a thread for posting questions about the value of retro items.

Thanks HKiller. I was hoping to take it back to as original as possible. I found that these came with the A1, A1E and A2 uppers on them with a A1 barrel profile. Any way I could tell from the serial number what exactly it came with. What is the difference in a government profile barrel?

Strela, any ideas on places to search. I know some of the more common places like EE, gunbroker etc., but is there any other good resources of older parts? Thanks for the input.

with the variations in them, i don't think colt even kept track of what they shipped.

The Colt AR15A2 Sporter II was my first AR15 in the 1980's.

It had an A1 upper with Forward Assist, and A2 furniture.  There were several different manifestations of it, until it evolved into A2-style uppers and heavy fore ends as Colt filtered in more A2 parts.

Sporter2's were a total hodgepodge of parts. The good news is you can't go wrong.

Kalahnikid, I like that thinking..

Topic Moved

I've never seen one there, but I'd look at APEX once in awhile, although they'd be more likely to have a GI upper with the small pivot pin. I found mine on a gun show table. it was mixed in with a bunch of standard A2 uppers.

A lot of people on Arfcom are down on gun shows, but I still find some good stuff. I picked up a slickside 9MM flattop upper recently for about a third of the going rate.

Interesting.  I can't believe they used that lower in 88.   I was thinking it would be a 20" er, but I guess not.  Although I do wonder if that's how it started life and the guy put a CAR stock on after getting a different upper.  I'm not a Colt expert though.  You can call Colt and confirm date of manufacture and what it was originally.  

It is kind of a perfect lower for a retro build though.  FWIW.  But whatever floats your boat.

Colt will give u date but thats it. The configuration is not something they kept track of.

Oh.  Ooops.  I guess I never really asked that particular question....

On the topic of restoring an original Colt AR Sporter II... I happen to own one and while it is is great shape it has a few nicks in the lower and upper receivers that have been touched up with what looks like black paint (I'm the second owner).  Also, the color of the upper receiver finish is definitely darker than the lower receiver.  The lower is more like a parkerized grey rather than the more modern black you commonly see.  The upper is darker but still not a match to any new upper/lower receiver.  My understanding is that this color mismatch is not unusual for Colts built around this time (slick slide lower just like the photos linked above).

So I'm thinking of tearing it down and having the upper and lower refinished to match each other.  I'd also send a second upper in to be finished at the same time so I can have another color matching upper to swap onto the lower.  What is the best way to refinish an original Colt Sporter II to maintain its value??  Initially I was considering Ceracoat for a good color match and durable finish, but that would not be original.  Would that negatively affect the value?

Looking forward to input.

To the OP, NoDak Spud makes both a pure "slick side upper"  (NDS-604) which lacks both the FA and case deflector and an NDS-603 which like mine has the FA but not the case deflector.  These are meant for building a clone early M16, unfortunately the pivot pin / takedown pin holes are the common M16 (milspec) small size and not the larger Colt AR size (see below for size diff).  

Does anyone know if a small pivot hole upper can be drilled out to work with a large hole lower?  I know they make adapters, but if I'm building a new upper I may as well make it fit like the original.  The adapter is offset which tells me you cannot just enlarge the small upper pivot hole without changing where it is centered.


Pivot / Takedown Pins sizes : .250" (or Colt .315")
Trigger / Hammer Pin sizes :  .154” (or Colt .171”)

#304791 was my first AR15 - and aside from a V-22 .22, my last

It went to Switzerland to a museum in Bern, but the staff member it was mailed to "took it home...." so it's not on display in the museum like they promised!

Great rifles - hope you get yours back to original spec. before too long

I'd suggest keeping an eye on the Used-Upper Receiver, checking GunBroker, and also posting a WTB ad in the Want To Buy - AR Related forum. I've seen a few large pivot pin uppers for sale recently, both A1 and A2 configuration. You may have to buy a complete upper with barrel, but then you'll have some different options on how you configure your rifle or you can sell your current upper.



Welcome to the forum and good luck.

US Anodizing does good work, I definitely wouldn't cerakote/duracote anything that you want to keep any collector value

Who cares if the color is different?  

I'd leave that lower finish alone.  But that's just me.  You could find an A1 or A2 upper to match it.

Thanks Strela

To be honest, I dont know JJREA.  The previous owner was the original owner. When I purchased it, he provided the manual and the original sales receipt (from a local gun shop) which showed a purchase date of 1988. Said the lower was as he bought it, which  would make me believe it was the carbine model. The rifle could have sat in the store a couple of years, so it could be a little older than 88.

Yeah, I don't really know the names of the Colt models.  But if you google Colt Sporter I think 20"ers showed up for me.  But I guess they could've used that term for carbines too.  One thing to note is that stock, I need to look at the stock again.  But is it the rubber coated aluminum?  If it is and it's a real colt, that thing is worth a fortune.  And very sweet.  And if it IS an actual Colt stock, then it's a good chance it WAS a carbine.  Unless whoever put it on there cared to keep it all Colt.

OK, just looked at the pics again.  I think for sure it's polymer stock, eh?  I think the genuine Colt's are supposed to be marked "N1" somewhere?  Possibly?   You could check that.  The castle nut is the older style, which makes sense.  But he obviously put the different plate on there.  How many positions on the buffer tube?  Just 2?

I noticed the same thing. A fiberlite stock is correct for this model. It should have "N1" embossed somewhere if it is the original Colt stock. Some of the early Sporter IIs may have had the vinyl acetate aluminum stock. I am curious about the buffer tube as well. It should be a 2-position.

The markings would be on the stock body underneath the lever on the right side. Nice pic of the N on this thread from the archives. The 1 would be toward the back of the stock.







 

It is a two position buffer tube. I will have to look when I get home to see if it is marked N1.  From my research, this riffle came with either the A1, A1E or A2 upper with a A1 barrel. My quandry is deciding which upper to use to bring it back to original configuration.

It is a 2 position buffer. The stock (it is polymer) does not have a "N" or a "1" stamped any where on it that I can tell.  I was doing all this research, pulling my hair out trying to find out which upper this one came with (they supposedly came with A1, A1E or A2's) and wouldn't you know it, the manual actually states which upper it came with. It s shows only the Sporter H-Bar with an A2 upper at the time and all others with an A1. So that's what I am looking for now.

As for the barrel, it is suppose to be the A1 profile barrel. Is that the pencil barrel?

Thanks to all for the help.

Yeah, an A1 barrel would be a pencil barrel I'm assuming  .625.  I'm also assuming you're talking 16", right?    I actually didn't know they made a 16" Hbar.........  Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?  It sounded like you said the manual said it was an HBar but then later said it was supposed to be an A1........

OK, I think I got it.  The Hbar was only with an A2 upper and the A1 uppers had a LW barrel.  That makes sense.  I still didn't know they made 16" Hbars though.

The manual was for several variants. The HBAR mentioned in the manual was a 20inch with an A2 upper.  The Sporter II carbine was a 16 inch A1 profile barrel. Sorry to confuse...

So any body want to take a guess at what the value may be as it sits? What would the big hole complete lower by worth by itself?

As far as value, the only real value is in the lower and that would be to mostly those in a pre-ban state. In my opinion, the lower (including the internals and the buffer tube) could be worth from $300 up to around $700. For those not in pre-ban states, the lower is not that valuable as it would not be in enough of a demand. For those in pre-ban states, they are worth quite a bit because of their restrictions on what they can own. As for the upper, not knowing what the specifics are on it. it could be as little as $300 and maybe up to $400. If it is a Colt upper and barrel, then you can add about another $100 to it. The stock, being that it is not N 1 marked, is most likely a reproduction, therefore have very little value at all. All this said, value is only what someone else is willing to pay. As far as what this Colt was originally, I suggest calling Colt customer service and have then run the serial number to see if they can shed some light on what it was when it left the factory.

Thanks jrs93accord. Yes I believe it is a complete Colt upper (upper is stamped "C", "AF", and M4 ) and (Barrel is stamped  "C" "MP" 5.56 NATO 1/9) and (Bolt carrier stamped "C").

Just an update on what this is. Talked with Colt. They couldn't confirm the actual production date, but did give a ship date of May 1987. It is a Model 6420, Colt AR15 A2 Sporter II Carbine. Came with an A1 rear sight. Unsure whether it came with a brass deflector or not. This narrows down my search to an A1 upper, with 16 inch pencil barrel with 1/7 twist. Thanks all for the help.

That'll make a really nice carbine.

Yes it should..

I have both the Colt AR-15A2, SPII rifle and carbine myself and as mentioned these were the transition ARs from the AR-15, SPI to the AR-15A2, Govt/Hbar models that came out around 1989, which came out with the updated A2 rearsights.

Since these were transitional ARs, they came with either the A1 upper receiver with the or the C7 upper receiver with the A2 brass deflector.

I've seen a few used SPII rifles with the slick-sided SPI upper receiver, but I'm not sure if that's how they left the Colt factory like that, "but" it wouldn't surprise me if Colt didn't empty their parts bins all their old SPI uppers...  "I" preferred the SPII Colts with the C7 uppers since to me, that truly a more correct "transition" model.  As for the carbine model, I don't remember seeing any with the older alloy SPI collapsible stocks, but clearly remember seeing them with the newer fiber-lite stocks around 1986/87...  I was in the Army at that time and most of the junior NCOs were selling their older Colt AR-15s for the newer AR-15A2 rifles....  Around the same time, selling off their Colt 1911s for the "new" Beretta 92 pistols... I Kept my Colt 1911, but sold off my Springfield Armory G.I. model to fund the Beretta purchase.

There are no direct sources for an original Colt A1 or C7 upper receivers with the large front T/D pin hole, but keep yours open since they do pop up on the EE board here, as well as on Gunbroker...  I'm pretty sure members here might have one in their spare parts bin AND I'm sure that somebody has already reached out to you by now... At least, I hope so!!  

If you want to keeps its "modest" value (In today's market), I wouldn't use an aftermarket upper receiver or have it "painted" with a duracoat type product since that would devalue it and only leave the lower receiver with any type of real value.  I expect that their values will increase in time, but the Colt AR-15 SPI and the Colt AR-15A2 Govt/Hbar are still selling for several hundreds more than a SPII models at this point.

I'm a "semi" Colt fan, and all my Colt ARs are keepers since they're Colts!!  

Good luck in finding all the parts you need and enjoy her!!

Thanks bergunx for the info.

I found a complete Colt slab-side large-hole upper with a 1/7 twist barrel for sale on EE and sent OP an IM to give him a heads-up.  But it looks like upper is now SPF  It would have been a nice upper to go with OP's lower.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_159/1473675_Vintage_Complete_Colt_Slab_Side_Lightweight_Carbine_Sporter_Upper.html

Yes it was a nice upper, and I thank you for doing that. I just think that upper is a little early in production for this lower. I was going to try and turn it back to as original as possible, but have since decided to go a different route and sell the lower. Thanks again.

Keep an eye on the EE, they do come up for sale. I just sold one on there a couple of months ago.

I'm sure those uppers are out there, but come to think of it, I haven't seen one in ages.

Like another posted said, a C7 upper should be correct.

Goodluck with it, I would love to have an old Colt sporter.

Thanks

And after responding to your ad, I find this thread!  :)
I live in a "free" state (WA), so my interest is your lower is because I prefer Colt parts where relevant, have a slabside build in mind, and have a slickside large takedown pin upper.  :)  :)

If you change your mind, there's a seller on Gunbroker with four 6420 uppers listed. No BCG but otherwise complete.



Search for "Sporter II AR15 carbine upper".