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Posted: 3/26/2015 1:44:16 PM EDT
[#1]
I think that the acceptance of the A2 being a retro is still up in the air. Even though the A2 platform has been around for over thirty years now, some still do not want to group it with the earlier models. Models like the 723s, 727s, and the civilian Colt AR-15A2 Sporters are still lumped in with the retros because of some of the earlier features. These were, for the most part, transitional models. I would think that the M16A2 should also fall into the retro category now, but many would say to the contrary. I do consider the A2 "old school" now.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 1:57:03 PM EDT
[#2]
My feelings also. I guess I consider the 80s stuff retro. I mean the main difference is the back sight and furniture.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 5:18:41 PM EDT
[#3]
"Retro" infers a period during the Vietnam War.
It's not like the term "antique" whereas you get to become an antique after xxx number of years. Was it made about while the Vietnam War was being fought? Then it's retro. XM4s have a retro look to them. 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 6:53:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Well, the term retro could apply to many things but that ny opinion. Anything early that has progressed over time to me could be retro. The word is not exclusive to Vietnam era.
I'm going off of the definition: "Involving, relating to, or reminiscent of an earlier time" |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 6:59:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Retro [ 'retro ]
ADJECTIVE imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past: Typically, the "Retro Black Rifles" are the AR15 / M16 rifles that were in production and used up to the mid 1980's. There is nothing to say that the A2 cannot be added and the definition of "Retro Black Rifles" cannot be changed. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:46:36 PM EDT
[#6]
...i still think a2's are some of the nicest shooting ar's, especially for people with gorilla arms like myself.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:52:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...i still think a2's are some of the nicest shooting ar's, especially for people with gorilla arms like myself. Gov profile especially |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:56:03 PM EDT
[#8]
I think one aspect of "retro" that frequently gets overlooked is the barrel twist. While not readily visible, this is a major factor in what era the weapon belongs in. If your piece is a 1/12 - M193 product.....I'd call it retro for sure. The A2 marks a clean break with the past here. M855, and other contemporaries are certainly part of the 1/7 twist generation. This was true from Colt's marketing strategies as well. I observed an A2 Colt Commando at OGCA Columbus back in 1986, and it didn't have a single A2 anything on it except the 1/7 barrel and the box label ! AFAIC, the A2 rifle is going to stay top kit regardless of Uncle's position on same !
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Posted: 3/26/2015 8:22:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Here in Los Angeles, there is a radio station called K-earth 101.
They have been playing 60's oldies for ever. All the nam era music you could think of * Now 80's is oldies! Retro like the type of female you might be attracted too, is a moving target ;) There are some smokng hot women in their late 40's early 50's that are just wonderful (to me) I would say anything that was factory Grey and or 30 years old qualifies as vintage or retro. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 8:41:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Double tap, sorry. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 8:41:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here in Los Angeles, there is a radio station called K-earth 101. They have been playing 60's oldies for ever. All the nam era music you could think of * Now 80's is oldies! Retro like the type of female you might be attracted too, is a moving target ;) There are some smokng hot women in their late 40's early 50's that are just wonderful (to me) I would say anything that was factory Grey and or 30 years old qualifies as vintage or retro. Amen tiger, good comparison. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 9:58:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Retro like the type of female you might be attracted too, is a moving target ;) There are some smokng hot women in their late 40's early 50's that are just wonderful (to me) I would say anything that was factory Grey and or 30 years old qualifies as vintage or retro. Well said Tiger and I don't care if the Retro crowd will ever accept A2's as Retro, but I love 'em 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 10:09:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say anything that was factory Grey and or 30 years old qualifies as vintage or retro. I'll have to do a hands-on inspection to check on the factory gray ( ), but she's over now over 50 as is the song. Retro? |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 9:48:58 AM EDT
[#14]
Here we go again, let's dig up that horse and whomp it a few more times. No, the A2 is a great rifle but it isn't classified as retro. We've been down this road just a few years ago and that's what lead to the development of the A2 forum. Seems to be a perennial topic for some reason.
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Posted: 3/27/2015 10:22:12 AM EDT
[#15]
It's hopefully constructive discussion. Of course, everyone is different and there will always be two sides. There's plenty other topics that gets pounded to death on here.
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Posted: 3/27/2015 10:25:05 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here we go again, let's dig up that horse and whomp it a few more times. No, the A2 is a great rifle but it isn't classified as retro. We've been down this road just a few years ago and that's what lead to the development of the A2 forum. Seems to be a perennial topic for some reason. I agree, here we go again. YEP! we have some self appointed gate keepers..................................... 
I am kind of new with the Retro rifle thing, ( maybe only 50+ years), but what group or person gets to decide what is or is not Retro? 
What are the names of these people?
How does this person or group of people decide what is retro or not?
Is this some kind of political issue some people have?
I just don't know why it would even matter to most of us, if I wanted to call the A1/C7 , A2, A3, a Retro. 
So! As of today I am calling the A1/C7, A2, A3, all retro.
Any thing built more than 25 years ago and one day is now officially Retro.
As a self imposed non-retro expert, I declare this to be. Anyone that disagrees, Well! It is OK. fill free to appoint yourself as a Retro decider and go for it.
This was posted in jest. Many (maybe most) of us don't really give a rats ass one way or another. Have a nice day! Ron |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 11:16:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, here we go again. YEP! we have some self appointed gate keepers.....................................
I am kind of new with the Retro rifle thing, ( maybe only 50+ years), but what group or person gets to decide what is or is not Retro?
What are the names of these people?
How does this person or group of people decide what is retro or not?
Is this some kind of political issue some people have?
I just don't know why it would even matter to most of us, if I wanted to call the A1/C7 , A2, A3, a Retro.
So! As of today I am calling the A1/C7, A2, A3, all retro.
Any thing built more than 25 years ago and one day is now officially Retro.
As a self imposed non-retro expert, I declare this to be. Anyone that disagrees, Well! It is OK. fill free to appoint yourself as a Retro decider and go for it.
This was posted in jest. Many (maybe most) of us don't really give a rats ass one way or another. Have a nice day! Ron Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here we go again, let's dig up that horse and whomp it a few more times. No, the A2 is a great rifle but it isn't classified as retro. We've been down this road just a few years ago and that's what lead to the development of the A2 forum. Seems to be a perennial topic for some reason. I agree, here we go again. YEP! we have some self appointed gate keepers.....................................
I am kind of new with the Retro rifle thing, ( maybe only 50+ years), but what group or person gets to decide what is or is not Retro?
What are the names of these people?
How does this person or group of people decide what is retro or not?
Is this some kind of political issue some people have?
I just don't know why it would even matter to most of us, if I wanted to call the A1/C7 , A2, A3, a Retro.
So! As of today I am calling the A1/C7, A2, A3, all retro.
Any thing built more than 25 years ago and one day is now officially Retro.
As a self imposed non-retro expert, I declare this to be. Anyone that disagrees, Well! It is OK. fill free to appoint yourself as a Retro decider and go for it.
This was posted in jest. Many (maybe most) of us don't really give a rats ass one way or another. Have a nice day! Ron What he said, to each his own....I will say I like the old stuff, called retro or not. By old, I mean early 90s and back |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 11:30:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here we go again, let's dig up that horse and whomp it a few more times. No, the A2 is a great rifle but it isn't classified as retro. We've been down this road just a few years ago and that's what lead to the development of the A2 forum. Seems to be a perennial topic for some reason. There is no official documentation saying what is retro and what is not. Several years ago, someone came up with the idea of what is retro and what is not. This has been the consensus for many years. In the case of the A2, it is much older now and is more than capable of being included as a retro. If some individuals want to consider it as such, that is up to them. If others want to say it is not, that is up to them as well. Who is to say who is right and who is not? The answer, nobody. I have numerous retro ARs and I do consider my A2 as being a part of my retro AR collection. It goes right along side of my 727. |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 11:39:57 AM EDT
[#19]
I built an early to mid 80s type a2 Hbar, that I'm hoping someday I'll get to change the barrel to a government profile.
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Posted: 3/27/2015 6:29:19 PM EDT
[#20]
So retro is what we want it to be. Cool! I got an M-4gery that is a clone of the one I carried in Afghanistan in 2008 and because it has the Knights rail system rather than something like an M-lock and older M68 Aimnpoint, it's not the latest and greatest and therefor retro! Don't judge me, monkey!!
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Posted: 3/28/2015 9:26:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think one aspect of "retro" that frequently gets overlooked is the barrel twist. While not readily visible, this is a major factor in what era the weapon belongs in. If your piece is a 1/12 - M193 product.....I'd call it retro for sure. The A2 marks a clean break with the past here. M855, and other contemporaries are certainly part of the 1/7 twist generation. This was true from Colt's marketing strategies as well. I observed an A2 Colt Commando at OGCA Columbus back in 1986, and it didn't have a single A2 anything on it except the 1/7 barrel and the box label ! AFAIC, the A2 rifle is going to stay top kit regardless of Uncle's position on same ! I would say the A2 is the clean break from the M16 retro era. The A2 represents too many distinctive changes from the former era. However, there are interesting "transition" models, like as described above, that only carried over the rifling twist change, or the barrel profile, or the A2 furniture, etc. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 9:34:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Compared to todays stuff I would say yes they are retro.
The guys in the retro forum would burn me at the stake for saying that. They are crazy about their stuff.
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Posted: 3/28/2015 9:44:49 AM EDT
[#23]
That's why I myself call it retro. It's far different from the bells and whistles stuff.
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Posted: 4/1/2015 10:41:24 AM EDT
[#24]
i have a colt sp a2 that i bought new in the in the box back in the 80s it has a slab side lower and a A1 no brass deflector upper . the only thing A2 about it is the barrel and shiney round hand guards.. it even has a no tic selector
just the furniture and barrel are A2. i have a factory Mutt.. lol maybe they should be called A1 1/2 lol or half retro.. lol also.. there is no telling how long this rifle sat on the gun store shelf before i bought it. (because this was way before AR frenzy hit) it could have been in the gun shop for a year or more till i bought it, then i tried to do a serial number look up through colt's data base and my serial according to the colt data base doesn't exsist. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 8:03:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i have a colt sp a2 that i bought new in the in the box back in the 80s it has a slab side lower and a A1 no brass deflector upper . the only thing A2 about it is the barrel and shiney round hand guards.. it even has a no tic selector just the furniture and barrel are A2. i have a factory Mutt.. lol maybe they should be called A1 1/2 lol or half retro.. lol also.. there is no telling how long this rifle sat on the gun store shelf before i bought it. (because this was way before AR frenzy hit) it could have been in the gun shop for a year or more till i bought it, then i tried to do a serial number look up through colt's data base and my serial according to the colt data base doesn't exsist. Sounds like a cool gun. Let us know date and such when you find out. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 9:18:13 AM EDT
[#26]
KYGun, I'll be at Knob Creek looking for A2 parts.
If you find me, I'll buy ya a beer.
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Posted: 4/2/2015 9:35:36 AM EDT
[#27]
I'd be there but I'll be taking in the NRA convention.
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Posted: 4/2/2015 10:23:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would say the A2 is the clean break from the M16 retro era. The A2 represents too many distinctive changes from the former era. However, there are interesting "transition" models, like as described above, that only carried over the rifling twist change, or the barrel profile, or the A2 furniture, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think one aspect of "retro" that frequently gets overlooked is the barrel twist. While not readily visible, this is a major factor in what era the weapon belongs in. If your piece is a 1/12 - M193 product.....I'd call it retro for sure. The A2 marks a clean break with the past here. M855, and other contemporaries are certainly part of the 1/7 twist generation. This was true from Colt's marketing strategies as well. I observed an A2 Colt Commando at OGCA Columbus back in 1986, and it didn't have a single A2 anything on it except the 1/7 barrel and the box label ! AFAIC, the A2 rifle is going to stay top kit regardless of Uncle's position on same ! I would say the A2 is the clean break from the M16 retro era. The A2 represents too many distinctive changes from the former era. However, there are interesting "transition" models, like as described above, that only carried over the rifling twist change, or the barrel profile, or the A2 furniture, etc. While this makes a great deal of sense, one of the most popular threads in the retro forum is about the 727 BHD carbine (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html) , which at best the only retro characteristic it has is an A1 style lower. In a sense the retro forum was really about the development of the AR platform, and the people with that knowledge now need to hang out in the retro and A2 forum to exchange that information - and look at how we took up M4 development in this forum, which is not A2 related in a strict sense ..... |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 11:37:21 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While this makes a great deal of sense, one of the most popular threads in the retro forum is about the 727 BHD carbine (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html) , which at best the only retro characteristic it has is an A1 style lower. In a sense the retro forum was really about the development of the AR platform, and the people with that knowledge now need to hang out in the retro and A2 forum to exchange that information - and look at how we took up M4 development in this forum, which is not A2 related in a strict sense ..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think one aspect of "retro" that frequently gets overlooked is the barrel twist. While not readily visible, this is a major factor in what era the weapon belongs in. If your piece is a 1/12 - M193 product.....I'd call it retro for sure. The A2 marks a clean break with the past here. M855, and other contemporaries are certainly part of the 1/7 twist generation. This was true from Colt's marketing strategies as well. I observed an A2 Colt Commando at OGCA Columbus back in 1986, and it didn't have a single A2 anything on it except the 1/7 barrel and the box label ! AFAIC, the A2 rifle is going to stay top kit regardless of Uncle's position on same ! I would say the A2 is the clean break from the M16 retro era. The A2 represents too many distinctive changes from the former era. However, there are interesting "transition" models, like as described above, that only carried over the rifling twist change, or the barrel profile, or the A2 furniture, etc. While this makes a great deal of sense, one of the most popular threads in the retro forum is about the 727 BHD carbine (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html) , which at best the only retro characteristic it has is an A1 style lower. In a sense the retro forum was really about the development of the AR platform, and the people with that knowledge now need to hang out in the retro and A2 forum to exchange that information - and look at how we took up M4 development in this forum, which is not A2 related in a strict sense ..... That thread was also started long before the A2 forum started. Should probably be moved over here, would bring more traffic to this section too. I agree with coldblue that the A2 is a "clean break" so to speak. A2 lower forgings, 1/7 twist, improved FH, new PG, etc all became the new "standard". |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 1:32:48 PM EDT
[#30]
I've had my say about this many times, and I'll just say a few things again.
I think people are being a little anal when they decided they can't be bothered to allow posts about A2 guns in the "retro" forum. As some have pointed out, Retro is a very general term and only here on arfcom, since some have deemed it so, does retro mean "Vietnam Era". But having said that, I'll never claim I'm not anal about about some things too. So..... I like the description of the break between different barrel twists, it makes sense. But I still think it wouldn't have made a whole heck of a lot of difference if us A2 people posted in the retro forum. This forum has not had a lot of traffic for a long while. Although that has changed as of somewhat recently, so...... For all you people that said piss off and stay out of here, I'm not a fan. But I'll try to be understanding. 
I guess in the end if we have a lot of posts in here, then it's all good. But I think we went about it backwards. If the A2 posts grew to the point that it was overtaking the Vietnam talk, then I would see the need to have separate forums. But there were so few posts in the beginning that I didn't see the need. But everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just my thoughts.. |
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Posted: 4/3/2015 12:48:53 PM EDT
[#31]
How about "vintage" for the A2 series? The A1, triangle handguard, no-bump grip, bird-cage FH, 1:12" guys have retro. Why can't the A2, brunton bump, drop compensator, bump grip, round handguard. 1:7", no dust signature FH, guys have a cool name too?
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Posted: 4/11/2015 11:32:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like a cool gun. Let us know date and such when you find out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
i have a colt sp a2 that i bought new in the in the box back in the 80s it has a slab side lower and a A1 no brass deflector upper . the only thing A2 about it is the barrel and shiney round hand guards.. it even has a no tic selector just the furniture and barrel are A2. i have a factory Mutt.. lol maybe they should be called A1 1/2 lol or half retro.. lol also.. there is no telling how long this rifle sat on the gun store shelf before i bought it. (because this was way before AR frenzy hit) it could have been in the gun shop for a year or more till i bought it, then i tried to do a serial number look up through colt's data base and my serial according to the colt data base doesn't exsist. Sounds like a cool gun. Let us know date and such when you find out. i have the original owners manual that came with the rifle. it was printed in 81. the rifle even has a tear drop FA. i never noticed any of this stuff till i started to be infected with "retroitius" i belong to the Gun Boards forum also (same user name) i asked the guys in the semi auto section about my rifle about a year ago. there were lots of theory's. but one fellow member said back in the early 80's there were labor disputes at the colt factory. and my rifle could have been built out of left over parts just to fill sales. he also said that is probably the reason my serial number doesn't show up in the data base. i didn't research it any further. oh and by the way. that rifle cost me $350.00 brand new out the door back then... lmaoooo Ahh the good ole days..  also used to buy 20rnd boxes of American egale ammo for 3 dolllars a box..
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Posted: 4/13/2015 10:12:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've had my say about this many times, and I'll just say a few things again. I think people are being a little anal when they decided they can't be bothered to allow posts about A2 guns in the "retro" forum. As some have pointed out, Retro is a very general term and only here on arfcom, since some have deemed it so, does retro mean "Vietnam Era". But having said that, I'll never claim I'm not anal about about some things too. So..... I like the description of the break between different barrel twists, it makes sense. But I still think it wouldn't have made a whole heck of a lot of difference if us A2 people posted in the retro forum. This forum has not had a lot of traffic for a long while. Although that has changed as of somewhat recently, so...... For all you people that said piss off and stay out of here, I'm not a fan. But I'll try to be understanding.
I guess in the end if we have a lot of posts in here, then it's all good. But I think we went about it backwards. If the A2 posts grew to the point that it was overtaking the Vietnam talk, then I would see the need to have separate forums. But there were so few posts in the beginning that I didn't see the need. But everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just my thoughts.. I totally agree with this. And in an effort to be entertaining, here is a look at an early A2 upper. A couple of interesting points - (A) tear drop FA - I assume the big button had not yet had the flat side solution, so the rear tear drop was the quick fix (B) Colt proof marks like the A1s forward of the port door area - have never seen that on any other A2 upper. 
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Posted: 4/13/2015 11:42:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Check the "USGI M16A2 UPPER VARIATIONS GUIDE (above). There is a picture of another CM upper with the colt proof marks. Also, I have a C AF grey A4 upper that has the proof marks. Not common, but not unheard of also.
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