I was wondering if the military ever made an M16A2 with a 1:9 barrel or heavy barrel?

1:9 was the twist rate of the early prototypes in the development program.  Later on they tried 1:8 and then 1:7 due to accuracy issues with the M856 tracer.

Early prototypes also used a heavier profile barrel, which was changed to the light profile under the handguards so that the M203s already in inventory would not have to be modified.

I don't think an A2 had an HBAR.  BUT, I'm not sure about that version Colt came out with that was a "sniper" version with a 3x9 scope and that cheek riser.  The Delta or whatever it was called.  That might have used an HBAR.  But I'm not thinking the military every adopted that set up.  Not sure though.

I would be very interested in learning more about that version.. .for sure.
Are you talking about the one in this picture?  I think these are Delta Elites?

Yep, that's the one.

I think someone in the pic thread posted one he owned and something tells me it WAS an HBAR.  But I don't recall for sure.  I would guess if somebody googled it they could find out.  Or maybe not.  Hmmmm....

Damn, now I am getting ideas My A2 has an HBAR. I need a scope like that to go on it

Where can one find a cheek rest like that?  Or a knock off obviously.

Better off to use a flattop upper if you're going to use an optic.

I would be building it for the retro historical point of it....

I agree with gamma as always. You might as well just build a MK 12.

Right, because they must be completely useless like that.  Nobody in the military ever did that.  


You guys, this is the A2 forum.  If we were wanting get a flat top every time an optic was even thought about, we'd go somewhere else.  

First off I don't agree.  You can comment on how you have a chin weld and all this crap, but the fact is, I've shot some respectable groups with optics mounted on the carry handle.   And for some of us, it isn't all that awkward.  In fact, I find it sometimes a little bit awkward trying to jam my face down on the stock of an AR.  If you use a bolt action rifle, or M1A/M14 etc etc, they all have a much more "loose" cheek weld than an AR and a person can be very accurate with them.  What YOU think is the best way, isn't always the case for everyone else.  

Secondly, this forum is dedicated to rifles with carry handles and even if it WASN'T the most optimum way to mount an optic, it HAS been done by God knows how many people going all the way back to vietnam and dare I say to some success.  So there are many people on here who just want to build and shoot rifles for fun and to replicate something that was done at some point.  Is that not frickin obvious?  

This is the problem with hanging around here too long.  You get these guys that if it's not "their" way, it's stupid.  So everyone should be runnin a Block II with a T1 and the Costa grip while shooting off hand and if you don't have a G19 as your sidearm you're gonna die.  Because all other choices are just dumb.  Yeah, ok, whatever.  

Alright, I'm a bit miffed because you already were giving VMPGlenn a hard time for oh my frickin God mounting a compact ACOG on a detachable carry handle.  When you totally miss the fact that the point is you can have both at the same time and it still works.  But you're all like, well you can take the carry handle off and mount the ACOG.  That is an extra step that takes time and maybe he doesn't want to.  You think he doesn't know he can mount a frickin optic on his flat top?  My goodness, what would the rest of us do without people like you to point out the obvious.  ????  

I'm going to regret saying all this because I don't like starting fights.  I'm sure you are a very nice person and I'm probably being dumb and anal or something.  But really, there's nothing wrong with mounting an optic on a carry handle.  Even if you think there is.  But being the "flat top police" is just annoying.

Military went from the 1x12 twist  to 1x7 twist, the 1x9 twist was an intermediate twist made for civialian AR15's to shoot both 55 and 62 grain ammo after it was passed over by the .mil. With ammo going up into the 77grain region they also produced many SS match barrels for civilians in 1x8 twist. The Colt Delta HBAR is the rifle in the above picture, it had a heavy barrel and was setup for benchrest shooting.

I will admit that it is not my favorite way to mount glass.   But back before flat tops, they didn't have a choice.  So, it's kind of neat to see what it was like.  However, for me, I think the ultimate height is somewhere smack dab in the middle between normal height and this height.  Like how sometimes people put their eotechs on a riser.  And Larue makes that 1.93 high mount.  And those smaller ACOG's have a bit lower profile than a scope on top of a rail and would be really close to ideal, IMHO.  Not everyone has to agree with that, but we don't all have to agree with you either.  

It sounds like he's almost got all the parts he needs for a build like this.  A Mk12 would be a whole new direction costing a LOT more money.  Although I do like the Mk12's too.  They're sweet.

I will keep my carry handle uppers, A1, A2, and I am happy. I changed a flat top to a A2, cause I didn't want the flat top. I did buy one tho, I am gonna drill holes thru it and make a fixture out of it.

Damn dude you must be pretty upset to type up an essay. I tell you what, you show me a pic of a military M16A2 with that cheek riser, just 1 legitimate pic, and I will apologize to you for saying you should build a mark 12.

LOL,  I know, I need to calm down.  Geeeez.  But there is some truth in what I'm saying.  Plus your retort makes no sense.  I wasn't talking about that stupid cheek riser.  But actually I think there was one floating around but I just lost my other computer.  I'll see if I can find it.  It was I believe in Panama and a guy had what looked like a weaver K-4 mounted on an A2 and I think he actually had that cheek riser.  

Just thinking to myself, could it be panama?  I'm not sure of the timeline of things.  He was on the roof of a building.  Woodland camo with a hat, not a helmet.  If my memory serves me correctly.  

Regardless, there are plenty of pics of military guys with optics on their carry handle.  If are you saying you've never seen that, I can show you some.  

No doubt a Mk12 is a super nice rifle.  But you're in the A2 forum.  I suppose if the op has never heard of one, there's no fault in bringing it up.  But he did state he was more into the build for historical reasons.  

Pretty sure that guy right in front has some kind of cheek riser on his carbine stock.  

Oh you werent even the guy me and gamma were talking to! Why were you upset in the first place? Lol it's all good man. I'm sorry anyways if something I said bothered you. But no the M16A2 was never fielded with the cheek riser that said guy we were talking to wanted, so for clones sake that would make it "clone incorrect" but by all means if that's what he wants he can build it, it's just not optimal to mount a scope on a carry handle and has no clone value in itself with that cheek riser.

vietnam era



Whaaaaaaat?  That can't be.  

I was asking because I did not know if the cheek riser was a military item or not.  But even so....I will still prefer to build an A1 or A2 HBAR with a carry handle mounted scope.  I am familiar with an M4 that has an A4 flat top upper....I use and qualify with one.... at work.  But only a reflex scope and some BUIS.

However,  I enjoy the historical side of things and was seeking advice on a Military A2 HBAR and what was used on them.

Thanks JJREA for your advice and pictures....thanks to the rest of you as well.  I do appreciate whatever knowledge you may have to share with me.

Sorry to get your thread kinda messed up up there, wasn't the intent in the least bit, I guess I made some random dude upset by telling you i'd just build a mark 12 lol. Anyways, the cheek riser you were referring to earlier isn't historically correct, but if you would benefit from it, then buy that muhfugga.

Hey....nothing to be sorry for.  It's all good....thanks for your input.

He got a lot of good pics posted in his thread.    But also MILSPEC556, I still think there is a pic of that very cheek riser in use, but I can't find it right yet.  Whatcha gonna give me if you have to eat your words?  LOL.  The general point of the whole thing I've been trying to say is:  A flat top is not essential for optic shooting.  There's no doubt it gives you a better cheek weld, but it's not a necessity.  And there have been plenty of dudes that neither one of us would want to mess with, that utilized an optic on a carry handle at some point in time.

And you're welcome VaHessian.  Can't wait to see yours when it's done.  Range report too!!  LOL.  Gosh I gotta get out there and shoot my A2 again.  I have a 3x9 mounted on the carry handle rail too.  LOL.  I might have to strap it on and see how she does.  But my recce is calling my name too.

I'm really grooovin'  on that M4A2 fixed butt custom.  Never say never....I warned ya  ! !

I never said it was essential, I said it is not optimal. Which it is not. You're going to be hard pressed finding a picture of that exact cheek riser on a M16A2 in a soldiers hands tho. But I wish you luck anyways!

http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=476

http://www.galatiinternational.com/product/MD108.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/761080/john-masen-cheek-rest-ar-15-a2-buttstock-synthetic-black

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=486783  Sixth post down

Oh,
I am certainly not unfamiliar with a scope mounted to a fixed carry handle.  I just traded for this very sweet scope!
I have mounted it on my friends M16A1 clone (Mine is not built yet )  

But I love it!

Perhaps I should forget the whole scope thing............and try to use my A2 heavy barrel with this model!
I bet trying to find the bi pod is close to impossible!  I wonder if there are any reproductions out there?

Thank you 44Echo10 for looking these up and posting them for me.
Though, after thinking about it more...........they do just look like crap to be putting on a nice M16A2 platform.  LOL

Thanks

M16A1 - 1:12
M16A2 - 1:7
skinny under the Handgards for the M-203, like Gamma said

It's all right here...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Rifle-Retrospective-Military/dp/0889351155

Yes........Derek45........your correct.  I do need that book.

I believe that this is the scope mount your looking for, it's an ARMS 02 mount,
.
Sorry for the crappy cell phone pic's.  I was lucky to find this mount at my LGS's junk bin for $15 OTD one day, and decided I had to have it.

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The Bottom Pic- the engraving reads:  ARMS-M16A1A2

That is very nice.........indeed.  Especially with the Colt markings.  Nice find!

It's really worth the $60, lots of cool prototype stuff

http://www.scribd.com/doc/108495432/Black-Rifle-I


http://www.scribd.com/doc/108526806/Black-Rifle-II


You can find a reproduction of the M2 bipod, intended for the M14, very easily by doing a search with Google. The M60's bipod is hard to find and quite expensive.

Contact John Thomas, a Retro Forum regular,http://retroarmsworks.com/Home/About about doing a Colt H-Bar replica. He has built a few and has pics in his gallery section.

Thank you 44echo10.  I thought I had that pic in my stuff somewhere, but I couldn't find it.  Now I redownloaded it thanks to you.  

I wonder what kind of scope that really is.  It's been a while since I looked at the lines of a weaver K-4.  My step Dad has one on his deer rifle though.

Also, that scope you got could go on an A2.  Although the one I have is real sloppy.  But for some reason isn't on other carry handles I've tried.  But the arms 2 mount is nice and snug.  



IMHO, it's not that bad of a cheek weld.  Certainly not "chin weld" like so many pontificate.

FWIW, I never wore those oakleys in seriousness.  I don't really like them and they didn't fit.  Plus they weren't oakleys.  Just look like them.  I forget why we had them.  But because I had a beard at the time I just had to....

once again..........thanks for posting the information.  Yes, I want to build one of these..........this is what I want to build with my 20 inch HBAR.........instead of the Delta model.  
But I am sure trying to find that bipod set up is going to be near impossible!  

LOL.........yea.........I dont find it too difficult or uncomfortable on the A1 either.
I have even thought, that down the road once I get some retros built.........and I get around to building myself an M4........I am going to put a carry handle on it anyway.......it just would not feel right to me without a carry handle.  I love the A1 and A2!  I have given some thought about how to eventually mount a reflex sight to an M4 with a carry handle.  I thought I would give the goose neck a shot and see if I like that set up.



Or even something like this hottie is using........lol.  )



Sorry, now I am getting way off topic.  

OP I know 3-4 guys selling the M60 bipod adapted for a M16 barrel. IM/Email MrM1A, he has them for sale. real deal M60 bipods to boot.

Guys the late 80's early 90's was full of carry handle mouted optics and HOMEBREW cheek risers, I put an older Aimpoint and ARMS carryhandle mount on my 727 clone. This was a time period where all your current aftermarket accessory dealers looked back on to see how the Spec Ops was modding their equipment and how could they improve the bicycle innertube wrapped HG's with flashliight and forward mounted pistol grips on the bottom HG, etc.

IMHO, having used carry handle mounted optics before with and without risers, I think that there are more disadvantages than advantages to using a riser.

Once the riser is installed, you can't use really use the iron sights anymore.  

Honestly, I think for reflex style sights, a low carry handle mount is not a bad option at all - it allows you to keep a "heads up" orientation, and the "trend" has been towards raising the AR's sights little by little anyways, with the "lower 1/3" height, etc. - it will probably never go all the way back to the same sight line as being carry handle mounted, but I don't mind my sights sitting a little higher.  

It is a little less comfortable with magnified sights, but it's still not that bad.

I hate cantilevered optics on carry handles.  Never seen a one that will stay still and stay stable, regardless of how many clamps you put on it, plus it makes things unnecessarily front heavy without gaining much from it.  As a matter of fact, the only thing I would consider it on would be a subcompact length carbine (13"-10" barrel) since they're so light in the nose.  

~Augee

The old Colt 3x and compact ACOGs are a good choice for carry handle mounting because they are so tiny. Putt a 3-9x40 on a riser and it's a whole different deal.

Agreed

A real low profile mount for a T1 on top of a carry handle would be really sweet too.

Thanks!
I will send him a message and see what he has.  


Thanks to all of you for sharing with me and discussing my questions.

Again,

Thanks to everyone who has posted here.......helping me out with advice and information.  I really do appreciate it greatly.

I have decided to use my Heavy Barrel and build a Model 741- M16A2 HBAR clone as close as i can get it.

I have found a set of M60 bipod's (Thanks for the suggestion HipSh0T!) and will use my 1:9 heavy barrel.  I know it should be 1:7 twist, but I think I will just use what I have.

I have decided to start a separate post and ask for further advice.  Since this one was really about the scope mount use as well.

Thanks again.

Great... Very good to findout your going through with it was your idea, all I did was find you the correct bipod

People are always posting about trying to build a "correct" clone... Look at that gat. M4 barrel, standard (not M4) carbine hand guards, A2 upper, A2 stock..

Might be an A1 stock though.