Hello,

I have some questions about the differences between an Early M16A2 and a later M16A2.

So, after doing some reading in the stickies above, it seems that these are characteristics of an Early M16A2 rifle.
- Grey finish
- Big head forward assist on the upper
- A1 style lower

But if these are all correct........I still have some questions.

1. Was there a difference in the appearance of the A2 grip and hand guards on the early ones?  Was the early PG's and Handguards shiny as opposed to dull/matt?

2. What version of the rear stock was found on early A2's?  I have two different A2 stocks......Here are some pictures of the two I have.

The one of the right is grey and the one of the left is black.


Both stocks have all plastic butt plates.  But as you can see the grey one on the right has a diamond pattern on the door and plate.......the black one on the left only has the diamond pattern on the door.


There are some slight differences on the receiver end.  I dont have a buffer tube or spacer for the grey one.......I need to find one to finish it.


Both stocks are the same length. but the grey one on the right has a sharp square butt plate........the black one on the left is more rounded.



So any ideas which one if either one of these rear stocks would work best on an early M16A2.

Is there a better reference for the differences between an Early A2 and a later A2?

Thanks for any advice or information.

I'm no expert, and maybe Augee or someone will come behind me and correct me.  But what I THINK is going on with your question is you're mixing up commercial Colt AR15A2's with M16A2's.  My guess is that the reason you've seen A1 lowers on A2 uppers, which I've also seen on commercial Colt AR15A2's, is that they were using up inventory for their commercial offerings.  Which might be why you saw teardrop FA's on an A2 upper.  

I don't think the same can be said for military M16A2's other than the ones that were given new uppers.  I think I remember seeing a picture of an M16A2 with an A1 lower, but the A1 engraving x'd out and restamped A2.  Which I think meant they converted the trigger group to burst instead of FA also.  And whatever else they might've done to the lower to bring it up to A2 spec.  (grip and stock)

Your stock on the left looks like it has a later A1 butt plate.  But maybe they were using them up, as I said before.  And obviously it's an A2 stock if it needs a spacer.  

I don't know when Colt switched the color.  I do not see all that many A2's that AREN'T grey in pics.  Mine is grey.  Built in 94.  I would actually be surprised to see a Colt A2, whether it be M16 or AR15 in the darker black color.  Not saying they didn't make them, I just don't recall seeing them.  Now I've seen Bushmaster's that were the darker color with an A2 upper.  And then FN made A2's and still might also.  But I also remember seeing them be grey.  And there were a couple of other makers too, I believe, for the military.



As far as the handguards go, it does seem like earlier models had a shiny look to them.  My buttstock is smoother looking than that newer, textury look, but not nearly as shiny as the old handguards.

I believe all M16A2 rifles delivered to the DOD complete had A2 lowers. The earlier ones were gray; black came later. Early ones (1985-1990?) had the "big" round forward assist with the relief flat cut on the inboard side. I cannot comment on the handguards. I don't think the buttstocks changed, other than switching from metal to plastic trapdoors around 2002. They were always fully checkered.

I don't know the answer to your questions, but the butt plate on the black one is A1 not A2.

But its all plastic and not metal?
I have a type D and a type E that I know came off an A1 and E1.  
I know it looks like the type E, but the trap door is plastic and not metal like my older Type E?
I thought all the doors on the Type E stock were metal?  The stock is also longer then my other Type E.

But I am asking for help...

Again mil or not mil, whos definition are you going by? Some say an A2 is the sights, others my self included, say the only A2 criteria that mattered was the switch to a 1/7 barrel for the new ammo and tracers. Its the only part you will see on 100% of A2s.

On the mil side you had new rifles and A1s rearsenaled into A2s so you potentially would see a mix match there with lowers. And when it comes to commercial models, colt and whoever else, used whatever they had around so there are all kinds of mix matches. Several colt a2 ads posted here previously all came with A1 uppers.... Like i said it was the barrel that mattered.

As for the stock, the one on the right looks like the real deal. The other does not. That doesnt guarantee its the proper material, but its a good start.

I bought a nice set of early glass glossy handguards for my a1/a2 transition build from a gent on (just off?) a base that may or may not have been liberated... Who knows where they came from, but they are too nice to be commercial (cheap). So it is my belief and then using that as well to say yes, the early handguards were. At least some seem to have to have been. Who knows if it was all. They are much more expensive on the ee... So....take that as you will.

The A2 butt plate was probably replaced with the A1, & the trap door could be original to the A2 stock or replaced by someone along the line too? Hard telling unless you bought the stock new on a rifle. Just know that it is a A1 butt plate on a A2 stock.

Thanks to all of you that have posted and given me some information and advice.  
I think I have decided to use the stock on the right with my "early" M16A2 build.  
I will be looking for an A2 style butt plate eventually to replace the A1 style currently on the left stock.

Thanks

However,

There is still some questions I would like to get some of the experts opinions on.......

If I am going for an Early Military M16A2 build.  Can I use a grey A2 upper/ A1 lower with an "uncut" big head round forward assist button?
Or is it more correct to use an A2 lower (In which case, I will not be able to use my "uncut" big head round forward assist button) and try to find a "cut" big head round forward assist button.  I was just going to use those features on my early build.......

For my later military M16A2 build...........I was planning on using a black A2 upper/A2 lower with a regular sized round forward assist button.  Was just trying to use and show the variations.  But I want to do what is correct........for sure.

That might be better answered by Augee, but it would be like the ones mentioned in th military that were like upgraded to a2.  Not sure about the fa but I do recall seeing pics of a2 uppers on a1 lowers in the military.  And I've seen commercial ones like this.  So I would think it would be a close replica of something that you might have seen at one time or another.

Augee is the expert. However, I think both of these scenarios is fine. They converted A1s to A2s. All those had A1 lowers. I know the big FA was used at some point as Ive seen pics of them. Was it in production? Or a prototype? Etc.. that's an augee question, but I can say it's valid. Also, having black or gray in A2/A2 is gtg as well. I think your totally in the clear if all you want is.. did the mil somewhere use this.

But ultimately I would stress, it's your weapon, build what you want. Clones don't have to be perfect if they make you happy. They typically tend to be cheaper that way as well.

When the U.S. military converted from the M16A1 as standard to the M16A2, the Marine Corps was the first to purchase them and tried to more or less outfit "everyone" at once with the new rifle.  

The Marine Corps also purchased their M16A2s as complete rifles.  

On the other hand, the Army, Navy, and Air Force - all much larger services with more weapons to replace and/or other line items that the bean counters were more interested in purchasing chose to replace their weapons more slowly, and chose a dual path strategy, much like the way the M4A1 PIP is supposed to be -

Some brand new complete weapons were purchased, but conversion kits for existing weapons were also purchased to convert M16A1 and earlier weapons to M16A2 standard - the only difference "spec wise" would be the lack of the A2 reinforcements for the lowers.  Conversion kits were manufactured by several different companies, including EMCO.

Because of this, in the Army, Navy, and AF, there remain to this day many M16A2s in the inventory that are converted M16A1s, or particularly in the case of the Air Force R601 and R602 lowers that have been converted.  These are much more rare in Marine Corps use.  

As far as the anodizing color - most M16A2s, both converted and factory should be some shade or combination of grey, whether it's the "Sporter/Preban" bluish grey, purplish-grey, or, for very late production dark charcoal grey.  The "true" deep, flat black that most current anodizing is doesn't really "appear" until the 2000s, while the M16A4 was adopted in 1996, though the dark charcoal is "nearly" flat black.  Then again - during re-arsenalling and refurbishing, many rifles received new paint jobs that were a "pure" flat black - and even many M16A1s ended up this color, as did M16A2s.  

IMHO, and essentially - you'd be more likely to find a flat black M16A2 in an earlier configuration (more likely to have been refurbished) than to find a later M16A2 in "black/black."  Then again, aesthetically, just personally, a black M16A2 doesn't look "right" to me.  



This famous photo from Operation Gothic Serpent in 1993 clearly documents the use of the "large button" round forward assist on U.S. military service weapons as well (lower right corner), though it is difficult to discern whether it's relieved or not, and it's hard to tell what profile the lower receiver is.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a complete, large button forward assist with an A1 profile lower, however.  

Another thing to note is that most M16A2s will have their compensators timed with peel washers, not crush washers, as once again, these have come into use relatively recently, since the M16A4 superceded the A2.  Certainly some of have been fitted with crush washers during repair and refurbishment, but for the vast majority out there, they should be using peel washers.  

Finally - regarding the color/sheen of the furniture on the M16A2 - older weapons definitely "appear" to have shinier, and sometimes "blacker" furniture than some modern production parts - however, it's difficult to tell for certain if older parts really did look different "originally," because the modern parts, when used, and exposed to oils and solvents eventually darken and become shinier as well - however few people use A2 handguards, stocks, and even pistol grips quite as much as military weapons used to be.  At the same time, I have seen newer production A2 handguards and other polymer parts that seem to be a little bit "grainier" and feel a little bit more flexible than older A2 handguards, but I'm not 100% certain I've seen these on U.S. military weapons versus commercial/aftermarket parts.  

Grey stocks will turn much darker, ranging into black when coated with CLP - and after a period of some years and several users, and US military "cleaning parties" and solvent tanks, it's not unreasonable to conceive that factory stocks did not stay grey for long.

~Augee

FWIW.....Back in '85, SOF did a prolonged test of the "new"  M16A2.  Pete's test rifle came from Colt new with a gray butt, and a rather light shade at that.  Now about four years later I got a Bushie A2 stock new, which was jet black and satin finished.   Seen zillions of gray stocks over the years, but the pure black ones seem to be hard to find...unless they've been painted.  

@Augee    -    Thank you very much for the information and sharing the picture.  You have answered all my questions very clearly.  I think I will go forward with my intended Early A2 build as such:
         
- A2 upper receiver grey
- A1 lower receiver grey (prob NDS)
- big head (uncut) forward assist
- shiny round hand guards
- shiny A2 grip
- grey rear stock

I will post some pictures of my parts up to this point in a few days.  Maybe keep this build posted as time goes on.  I still need to find some parts like a barrel and prob wont have a NDS lower for quite some time.


@ jaygee    -    Thanks as well.  I have this grey rear stock.....on the right in the pictures above....I will be using it on my Early A2 build.  Thanks for sharing.


This is a wonderful forum full of great information!  Thanks to all who have responded and helped me!

S

No problem -

If you want to get the A2 stock looking a little less "chalky," you might consider just getting a large zip-lock bag, and putting some CLP in it, and "swishing" the stock around in the CLP like a bag of Shake 'n Bake to get it nice and coated, and let it soak for twenty-four hours or so.  

Then you can pull it out, wipe it down, and let it dry - it should be a good bit darker after that.  

If you want to get super-realistic with it, you could always wipe parts of it down with some lard or other animal fat... you know, to simulate sweat and skin oils.  

~Augee

Awesome idea.  I will do it this evening and let it soak some.  )

I wonder if I should use an early A1 style ejection door or use a later one........hmmmm

My vote would be A2 ejection poor cover.

~Augee

It shall be then......Thanks

Black/black a2s were still being made by FN ad we had plenty of them in Iraq 06-08. Interesting note was that some of the a2 serial's were in with our a4 serial range.  

With an A1 lower I think it will be more of a " converted" to A2 build than a true early A2.  The real early first true A2's ( like the first ones purchased by the USMC) had true A2 lowers that started in the 6 million serial number range.  Also some of the features that  we associate as being A2 features really began to take shape on A1 rifles ( round handguards and large round forward assists come to mind), You could do a burst marking over a crossed out auto marking on that a1 lower and have a bada$$  early convert A2.

I like your idea.........a lot!  I will do this if all works out correct.
Thanks!

The first USMC A2s were 6 million serials...FN A2/A4s started with 10 million.

Do an army conversion and stamp ANAD (Anniston Army Depot) month/year on the right side of the magwell. That shows the rebuild armory and date converted.


 

Funny thing.... I live exactly 10 miles from Anniston Army Depot.  Much of my family worked there for years,

That sounds very neat....
any pictures of what that would look like?

The first A2 I was assigned after coming back in the Army Guard in '99 after a long break was a new FN, s/n 7262xxx. Not sure how we lucked out (small REMF detachment) as the line units had a lot of conversions.





My current A2 clone is mostly FN with a LRB lower, but I'm thinking about having an 80% engraved by braceman to match my original.




 
 

Couple of pics in this thread in the retro forum archives.










 
 

Please write a book on the M16A1, A2, A3,A4, and M4A1 buddy. I know I tell you this pretty much daily but the amount of AR platform information in your head is fucking astounding.

My issued weapon at Fort Bragg from 1995-1998 was a Colt M-16A2.

S/N: 6213499. It had the large forward assist, was grey in color, and the stock was more of a grey. The Colt Sporter Target that I had was good match.

As for the shiny vs non shiny handguards, that seems to be a result of bug juice reacting to the plastic. The NOS USGI "replacement" M-16A2 handguards I have are matte, similar to Colt.

My unit was about 50/50 Colt M-16A2s, and ANAD rebuilds from A1 lowers. I remember the lowers on those were more of a semi gloss black, like some sort of paint. The uppers were a darker grey. I don't remember the forge codes, but guessing they were not Colt.

I was issued my M16A2 in March 87 in USMC boot camp.  They were near new.  I specifically remember the shiny,(like new)hand guards with the silver heat shield showing through the vent holes, black stock,and gray finish to the receivers.  I believe it had the large round forward assist. Every A2 issued to me until 91 looked similar. I have seen many Army personnel with A2 uppers on A1 lower receivers as recently as 2 years ago.

Awesome.  Thanks for posting the picture.  I will do my best to try and duplicate this rearsenal stamping....and make my build a "converted" to A2 build.  Neat!

You've got to get that purple finish too.










 
 

This is an old (as in before digital cameras existed) picture of an A2 I built in 1986.  Disregard the lower receiver, as it is an A1 (Ordco).  However, the upper assembly was put together from new, unissued Colt parts, as is the buttstock.  Note the finish/color.  Still have the rifle.

isplice you gotta post that picture in the vintage a2 thread, that thing is sweeeet.

Very nice A2.........Thanks for sharing!

OK, glad to be back to this thread. Here's some pics for reference. Pic 1 has the early glass "shiny" A2 handguards. They are not the same, which can clearly be seen in Pic 2, which is my 2009 Colt 6601. Which some say is about as close off the shelf to a mil A2 as you can get, and this one is, because I swapped the HBAR for a FN M16 barrel. Should be good to gauge your handgard and stock questions.