My current build is going to be motivated by the CAR-15 used by special forces in somalia in 92/93. i'm calling it my black hawk down carbine. i now have it down to needing era appropriate accessories.

i need..
1. flashlight & barrel mount
2. A2 carry handle mount & red dot
3. sling
4. car cheek piece

is there a way i can find out which contractors produced these items back in the early 90's?

It's been a while since we've discussed BHD builds here. The subject used to come up here quite often. I'm not sure if you will be able to check out these threads because they are from the archives but, give it a shot.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=304726

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=351924

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=360898

Doc

they just show the OP but the 3rd one had a pretty accurate photo minus the m203 notch in the bbl but i got some correct model numbers and brand names. thanks docmike!!!!!

I wonder how close the ones in the movies were to what was really used? I have no idea myself. Might try looking at the many pictures published in some books to see if they are the same. Just a thought.

In Memory and Honor of all of the Brothers who put it on the line.


"Let us never forget those who have come before us and paid the ultimate price."
"Let us never forget the flesh, blood, and spirit that has carried the black rifle into harms way"



Operation Gothic Serpent - Task Force Ranger

1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta - "De Oppresso Liber"

SSG Daniel Busch
SFC Earl Fillmore
MSG Gary Gordon
MSG Tim Martin
SFC Randy Shughart

Bravo Co / 3rd Battalion / 75th Ranger Regiment - "Sua Sponte"

SPC James Cavaco
SGT Casey Joyce
PFC Richard Kowalewski
SGT Dominick Pilla
SGT Lorenzo Ruiz
CPL Jamie Smith

160th Special Ops Aviation Regiment - "Nightstalkers Never Quit"

CWO Donovan Briley
SSG William Cleveland
SSG Thomas Field
CWO Raymond Frank
CWO Clifton Wolcott

10th Mountain Division - "Climb to Glory"

SGT Cornell Houston
PFC James Martin




DELTA











RANGERS















USAF Spec Ops



The previous threads pretty much cover it, but as always if anyone can add anything else please do.

Best of Luck,
Capt Richardson

Is that a suppressed Barrett?
That would be a pretty cool thing to have.
Although it is pretty cool to hear the boom echo through the hills when I shoot my 50BMG.

http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=110&parents=89

is this a current manuf. ring that is close to the older Surefire rings of the time. Large coin slot tension wheel. Two allen head upper ring attachment  with clip type bail on e the other.

+1 I'd go by actual pics of the period.

If you pay attention to the movie and you can spot dummy M-16's and 37mm launchers being used instead of M203's.

I can just see someone going around trying to fabricate a set of mounts for their M203 so they can have theirs hang as low as

the 'elusive low-slung' M203's seen in a couple shots in the movie.

The darn carbine with the scope on it keeps on tempting me...

I don't know if I should go with the Aimpoint 5000 I finally got or use the 2-7 leupold rifleman scope I have...? Any tips?

AWESOME POSTING!!!!! and love the memorium section at top. I will probably catch some hell from you guys but its because of the 92/93 operations in somolia i am going national guard in november. I know BHD is just a movie but its because of the men who took part in that specific battle that motivate me to join. its not the "honor" or "country" thing but the "for the man next to you" that gives me a warm feeling. as i see it, i can continue to deliver windshields for the rest of my life or i can take part in helping the man next to me. sorry about the heart to heart with you guys but when i see the names and faces of the men who have fought and died there it just opens me up. anyways, thanks for the pics

A buddy of mine had a picture of himself in Somalia in 93. he was with the 160th. He had an A1 carbine with the handle milled off and a weaver rail bolted in place ala 1980s AR hunting rigs. The sight was some kind of pre CompM aimpoint but it looked pretty close to a CompM2 to my eyes. The mount appeard to be just a tall 30mm scope ring. I asked but he did not remember many specifics.

forgot to mention, a couple years ago i stumbled onto a website that had a where are they now theme and quite a few of them posted comments unfortunatly if i remember correctly the last post was dated 1997. i can't find the site, i tried for hours. i guess its was closed or lost or whater happens to older sites.

also, i don't know if there was any truth to it but .. i was watching the rock of love and brett michaels mentioned big john was a sniper in somolia.

it would be an honor to meet anyone of those guys. hell i'd buy dinner lol

http://www.bhd93.com/invision/

I hate to even post the link, but if you have a legit reason to go there then please use it.

Needless to say if you are looking to have an "Airsoft Operation Gothic Serpent" don't even think about it!

Reality is, many Operators have little knowledge of "what they are carrying" in terms on the minutia / very fine details. Without a doubt they know inside and out how it operates, but they don't care who made what. That was very true in the 80s-90s, but it has changed to a certain extent these days.

Once again, please document your time in service, for your sake and everyone else!

Best of Luck,
Capt Richardson

Excellent post Captain

That 3rd link has the old Surefire barrel mount I was looking for a couple of weeks ago (and apparently no one knew about). Any idea where to find that kind? Surefire currently has a universal mount (inlcuding light) but it is upwards of $300!

Mine was graciously donated to me by a fellow member, but I recall talking about the mounts with Calvin of BrightFlashlights and he said he could them.

**Make sure you get the M16 mount - it can mount either on the barrel or around the FSB

I found the mount and light NIB on e-bay a year or so ago for about $120.

Member JoeScuba posted some info on the BHD incident a year or two back. Not sure if he ever came out and said what unit he was with, but he had lots of first person knowledge on Delta weapons.

USAF EOD had a M82A1 with a suppressor at the Silver Flag Exercise site at Tyndall AFB, FL. I fired it in the 2001-2002 time frame. We had to use a reduced distance range that had overhead cover so the can was used to keep the bast down a bit.  IIRC it was mounted on a tripod in a soft mount.

As for the mount, I think this is the one discussed above.  Surefire Model M16.  with maybe a 6P Light.
Sling I would guess would be the all black silent sling.

I think you can have quite a bit of leeway building a clone of a carbine from this time period - 723, 727, or 733 SBR, lw barrel or M4 profile, A1, A1/C7 or A2 upper, A1 or A2 grip...  I didn't set out to build a BHD clone, just a 723, but it's evolved.  I just think of it as my old skool carbine:



I think the mount I have is Ultramax or something - it was very inexepensive.

nice!

I have to ask all of you running the light so close to the muzzle -
are you getting any abuse of the light/lens?

I might get a cover for mine, but if nothing is really happening, I'll probably skip it...

I haven't shot mine since I added the light - I'm in Afghanistan now (home in less than two weeks though!)  The reason mine is in that position ow is because (not having fired it) having the light any farther back makes a big shadow because of the muzzle.

It's a good question, I'll let you know after I have a chance to get to the range at home.

My HK51 (V51P SBR) with a SureFire handguard is even closer to the muzzle.
The light actually touches the flash hider.
As you can see the flashlight has some scaring, but it still works fine.
The scaring is where the paint has been burned off in a couple of places. ("narrow" and "wide" beam)

Well if that doesn't hurt the light - mine certainly won't.

A very fine weapon you have there!

Seeing as this is near the top, I found this link a few years ago

Black Hawk Down

Info from the book/movie, interviews with the author and Delta/Rangers as well as actual video and audio clips

GI 2 qt canteen straps and the "original" homemade "V-tac" was also common.  It's made from the lower part of of an ALICE pack strap and a M3 grease gun sling.  The first one I saw was during ODS.  I made one using the silent sling that worked OK but later found the M3 grease gun sling to be ideal.  I know of at least 3 guys who used these slings in Somalia. Here is a pic of the sling I used in Bosnia back in 95.

excellent pics CaptRichardson..thanks for posting!!

Great info! Can you explain more how the homemade Vtac sling was deployed? There's also a thread here about what LBE was being used in Somalia - love to hear your .02

Are these the two position stocks on the CAR15s?  When did the four and six position stocks come on scene?

I think most current stocks were 4 pos in the early 90s, and that 6 came with the revised M4 stock after 2001.

The four position stock was not introduced as a production item until the M4 Carbine was introduced and type classified in 1994.  Sometime during R653 and RO723 production, the vinyl acetate coated aluminium "XM" stock was discontinued in favor of the fiberlite "CAR" stock, on a two position tube with an early lock ring rather than the castle nut.  The fiberlite stock continued into M4 production until about 2002 IIRC when it was superseded by the "M4" or "Waffle" style stock.  

The three, five, and six position receiver extensions are an aftermarket and/or commercial development, new production Colt M4 Carbines and other Colt carbines receive a four position tube.  

An accurate Gothic Serpent era carbine would have the two position fiberlite stock assembly.  The most well documented appear to me to be RO727 carbines (there was quite a long discussion on the proper nomenclature a while back that I won't try to rehash, suffice to say, some believe that they were RO720s, RO725s, or XM4s) in use by members of the 75th Ranger Regiment, with A1 lowers, S-1-F FCGs, two position fiberlite stocks, A2 pistol grips, and A2 uppers with the "700 series" .750 dia notched barrel.  There's some evidence of suppressed 733s.  Optics options would be mostly Aimpoint 3000 or 5000 models mounted on carry handles, or in a few well documented photos, a Leupold Mk. 4 with Harris 9-13" bipod mounted to the handguards.  Light would be an older Surefire 6P and bezel design in the Surefire M16 barrel mount, used on both carbines and M16A2s.  

The Delta weapons are a little bit more difficult to pin down, but they seem to be mostly RO723s with both .625 and .750 barrel profiles.  Those also seem to have the Aimpoints and Surefires.  It does make me wonder, however, given the supposed reports of failures to stop with the M855 round during the incident, if they were perhaps still using some R653s with 1/12 barrels and trying to shoot M855 out of them contributing to the reported poor performance?  

HTH,
~Augee

I'll try to answer a few questions best I can.  First off I went back to the 82nd 3 months prior to the deployment so I was not there.   Many of my friends were but I can't say I've ever had a conversation regarding gear with any of them since.  The sling pictured above was used by attaching the loop through the FSB or sling swivel same as on the pack frame.  The back was attached to a CAR stock in the normal fashion or the A2 stock with para cord and green or black fabric gaffers tape.  It's like duck tape only not shinny and leaves no residue when removed.  Much more useful than duck/100 mile/hr tape for may apps.   LBE/LBE at the time was ALICE and 1st generation woodland LBV for the most part.  There were some vests but I couldn't tell you the makes.  Armor in use was the PASGT and RBA they also had a woodland camo plate carrier that was made so you could use plates with the PASGT (Kevlar) vest.  I do not know what was sent over- never asked, just what was available.  Helmets were the PASGT and should have had the AB liner upgrade kit but many would not.  Mine had a partial upgrade. I had an M16a2 till 2000.  What we here are calling 653s and 723s were called M16a1 and M16a2 carbines- that's what was stamped on the lower so that's what they were called. Some M16a2 carbines had A1 type sights and M16a1 carbines has A2 type sights.  True M16a1 rifles or carbines were never supposed to go on deployment but who knows.  I would assume the uppers had been changed out to 1/7.  I don't even remember twist being discussed in those days- too much other junk going on, at least for me. The M16a1 marked carbines would have all been auto and I think the M16a2 carbines were a mix of auto and burst.  I highly doubt any M193 was sent over as the only ammo I ever saw was green tip on deployments before and after. I do know the "plastic" (what we called them) stocks were on some of the carbines and not well liked until it got cold. .......in the states that is.   What I can tell you is that Surefire's were not that common with Dorcys and mag-lights being the common flashlights.

So what scopes were used on the carbines at the time?

Augee's post up few covers that.  I didn't have one and there were not very may around INCONUS in those days.  I don't think there were all that many there either.    I remember some of the cool guys had some sort of red dot and I had a good friend who had a Nikon 3-9 x 40 his dad bought him- spent a few days trying to find a way to mount it.  Things are so much easier since the internet (thank you Al Gore )  Even a few years later in Bosnia there were very few guys running optics.  My first was an M68 in 2004.

The weapons we were issued during that time frame were as follows:
lower- vintage A1 lowers
upper- A2, fixed carry handles
barrell- 14.5" with M203 groove, small diameter under handguards- NOT the current heavy profile, A2 front sight post (sometimes changed to a night sight by user) and EITHER A1 or A2 flash hider- depending on who put it together at Anniston
handguards- single heat shield, small diameter
buttstock- 3 position, either plastic or coated metal (aluminum?)
pistol grip- sometimes A1, sometimes A2
Optic- aimpoint 5000, mounted on carry handle, the lower nut was discarded and replaced with a home depot nylock nut so it wouldn't fall out
tac light- surefire 6p w/ pressure switch. A butler creek scope cap (dont ask me what size) was attatched to guard against premature light ADs. The light was mounted either with surefires "sideways" mount that attached to the front sight post (preferred) or the shitty under the barrel mount that used 4 allen screws. The swith was normally attched to the handguard with either green army issued velcro or a section of inner tube.
Slings were generally improvised by the user. Mine was made from green tubular nylon webbing.
I just about cried when I had to turn mine in for the new M4 just before Haiti.
Hope this helps, this is the best of my recollection.

Great information, thanks for posting it. It sounds like you have some first hand experience?

Doc

ETA: I just went to Aimpoints web site to see exactly what the Aimpoint 5000 looks like and it says that the 5000 came out in 1997. Everything I see on the subject says that it would have been the Aimpoint 1000 used in Mogadishu.

Here you go dudes! Actual real deal Mogadishu D-boy setup from the JKF Special Warfare Museum.
The car15 seems to be airsoft and not an actual weapon but the sight on it is definitely an Aimpoint 3000

The JFK Museum is hardly known for their historically accurate displays.

Here is their Son Tay display

Hello. I'm FAR from an expert, but I took some photos of the lights and sight that I purchased form the early 90's. Again, I'm not certain if these were ever used by the military, just purchased from that time-frame. The sight is an Aimpoint 3000 - it looks a bit different from the sight shown on the museum display. Maybe the military was issued a different version.



A pair of lights. The top is an infrared light and can only be seen through night vision. The bottom is just a standard light. I'm not certain if these are 6P's - there are no markings on the body and the shape of the bezel is a bit different (it doesn't have those edges). They are marked "Surefire" but the markings on the tail caps are different from 6P's - they have "Fountain Valley, CA, Laser Products, Sure-Fire".





Hope this helps.

Laser products = Surefire from back in the day.

that Aimpoint is a 5000  variant... Aimpoint's dates on their website are screwed up for the 5000 and I think the Comp. the CompM was intro'd in 1998, so it makes sense that the Comp came before that rather than the 5000. the 3000 came in 1989.

I stand corrected, it is fatter than a 3000. Good call!

Well, I may have been mistaken on the aimpoint. I have a old 5000 in a box of stuff and I thought that was the same thing from back then, but it may have been a different model that looks alot like it. I haven't used any type of aimpoint in years, so its very possible I'm f'd up- won't be the first time!

No problem, I'm sure there are quite a few things that aren't quite as we remember them.  I "right click"  "saved" all your information that you posted. It's nice to have it all in one place.

Doc

Well, it's official, I'm collecting parts for a BHD build. I picked up this just a couple of days ago off Gunbroker.



Now I've got to start looking for a flashlight and mount.

Doc

Here's the real deal original BHD era 6p barrel mount.  He'll post another one soon.  His auction is for the complete mount, NIW, at less than half where you can find it anywhere else.  This is the Laser Products, Fountain Valley marked mount.  Not my auction.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144816152
Hal

Hal, thanks for the heads up!!!! I'll be watching for the next one.

Doc

No worries.  He's good to go too.

I usually don't speak on this, but it's been 16 yrs. ...


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isaiah 6:8

Sgt. First Class Randy Shughart, 35, Newville, PA. Delta Sniper killed defending the crew of Super Six 4, the Medal of Honor.

Master Sgt. Gary Gordon, 33, Lincoln, Maine. Delta Sniper killed defending the crew of Super Six 4, the Medal of Honor.

Master Sgt. Tim "Griz" Martin, 38, Aurora, IN. Delta soldier killed on the Lost Convoy, Delta Force.

Sgt. First Class Earl Fillmore, 28, Blairsville, PA. Delta soldier killed moving to the first crash site, Delta Force.

Staff Sgt. Daniel Busch, 25, Portage, WI. crashed on Super Six 1 and was killed defending the downed crew, the Silver Star, Delta Force.

CWO Clifton Wolcott, 36, Cuba, NY. pilot of Super Six 1 and died in crash, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star Medal, and the Air Medal with Valor Device, Night Stalkers.

CWO Donovan Briley, 33, Little Rock, AK. copilot of Super Six 1 and died in crash, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star and Air Medal with Valor Device, Night Stalkers.

CWO Raymond Frank, 45, Monrovia, CA. copilot of Super Six 4, Silver Star, Air Medal with Valor Device, Night Stalkers.

Staff Sgt. William Cleveland, Peoria, AZ. a crew chief on Super Six 4, Silver Star, Bronze Star and Air Medal with Valor Device, Night Stalkers.

Staff Sgt. Thomas Field, 25, Lisbon, Maine. a crew chief on Super Six 4, Silver Star, Bronze Star and Air Medal with Valor Device, Night Stalkers.

SGT Casey Joyce, 24, Denton, TX. who was killed on the Lost Convoy, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

SPC James Cavaco, 26, Forestdale, MA. who was killed on the Lost Convoy, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

CPL Jamie Smith, 21, Long Valley, NJ. who bled to death with the pinned-down force around crash site one, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

SGT Dominick Pilla, 21, Vineland, NJ. who was killed on the convoy rescuing Pfc. Todd Blackburn, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

PFC Richard Kowalewski, 20, Crucible, PA. who was killed on the Lost Convoy, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

SGT Lorenzo Ruiz, 27, El Passo, TX. who was killed on the Lost Convoy, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, 75th Ranger Regiment.

SGT Cornell Houston, 31, Compton, CA. who was killed fighting on the rescue convoy, the Bronze Star with Valor Device, De Fleury medal, 10th Mountain Division.

PFC James Martin, 23, Collinsville, IL. who was killed on the rescue convoy, 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry, 10th Mountain Division.

SGT Matt Rierson, 33, Nevada, IA. who was killed on Oct. 6 by a mortar which landed just outside the hangar, Delta Force.

The nineteen men who perished in the Battle of Mogadishu left fifteen surviving children. At the time of their fathers' deaths, the children's ages ranged from one month to seventeen years; the median age was about five years.


Sua Sponte (of their own accord)
Strength and Honor,