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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:26:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Time for a bolt redesign.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:37:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Time for a bolt redesign. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:55:15 PM EDT
[#3]
IIRC that's one of the issues. They also had feeding issues but I believe that was largely solved with the gen 3 pmags. I think a bolt redesign would fix the issue. Maybe move to Aeromet like the LMT enhanced bolt.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 9:04:48 PM EDT
[#4]
so let me see if i have this right....855a1 penetrates armor and steel better than mk318 but 318 is better on general barriers.
is 855a1 capable of poking thru ceramic plates? if so, at what distance? |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:04:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so let me see if i have this right....855a1 penetrates armor and steel better than mk318 but 318 is better on general barriers. is 855a1 capable of poking thru ceramic plates? if so, at what distance? Should do well against dyneema type plates. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:19:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All level iv ceramic plates will stop it. Should do well against dyneema type plates. why is the army so hell bent on a round to penetrate armor? atleast that is what i thought i read. if thats not the case and its just a barrier issue, 318 should be fine and its not a parts breaker. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:23:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so what is this armor i keep hearing the bad guys have? IIRC quite a few eastern block countries were using dyneema based plates. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:42:33 PM EDT
[#8]
So the "end all, be all HK" is failing due to the ammo?
Wow, did NOT see this coming! 
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:54:00 PM EDT
[#9]
yup...
it would be funny if somebody asked the brass on capital hill why their M4's and M16A4 are not having this issue. its been almost 5 years now and HK has no clue how to handle 855A1. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:59:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yup... it would be funny if somebody asked the brass on capital hill why their M4's and M16A4 are not having this issue. its been almost 5 years now and HK has no clue how to handle 855A1. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 12:01:24 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yup... it would be funny if somebody asked the brass on capital hill why their M4's and M16A4 are not having this issue. its been almost 5 years now and HK has no clue how to handle 855A1. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 12:02:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isis seems to have quite a few technicals with random steel welded on. IIRC quite a few eastern block countries were using dyneema based plates. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 12:28:00 AM EDT
[#13]
tag
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Posted: 6/19/2017 1:48:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought M4's did have bolt breakage problems with 855a1...no? While I am not in any way saying that the HK is a bad weapon. the Marketing job that HK pulled with their 416 should be studied in all major business schools for the net hundred years. They should of just went with the LMT EBCG and called it a day. funny thing is that they decided it wasn't worth the extra money to buy the EBCG. Fast forword a couple years, everbody wants a gun that has a bolt that is 4 times as expensive with less bolt life firing DoD standard ammo its like a scene from space balls... |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 2:33:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They do, but at higher intervals than HK, i dont have the numbers off the top of my head but you could replace an m4 for close to what it cost to replace a HK bolt,lol. While I am not in any way saying that the HK is a bad weapon. the Marketing job that HK pulled with their 416 should be studied in all major business schools for the net hundred years. They should of just went with the LMT EBCG and called it a day. funny thing is that they decided it wasn't worth the extra money to buy the EBCG. Fast forword a couple years, everbody wants a gun that has a bolt that is 4 times as expensive with less bolt life firing DoD standard ammo its like a scene from space balls... No way is it breaking bolts before the M4. The M4 has a bolt life of 3,000-6,000 rounds according to Crane. A basic M4A1 costs $678 from FN, a 416 bolt costs the civilian $330 from hkparts which is a stupidly overpriced website. So you are making stuff up to sound important. Because I can buy 2 HK bolts from a place that purposely rips civilians a new one for the price the government pays for 500,000 M4A1s. If the government needed 500,000 416 bolts it likely would be a few dollars more than a standard bolt. @m4hk33 |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 4:08:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The HK bolt uses higher quality steel than C158. No way is it breaking bolts before the M4. The M4 has a bolt life of 3,000-6,000 rounds according to Crane. A basic M4A1 costs $678 from FN, a 416 bolt costs the civilian $330 from hkparts which is a stupidly overpriced website. So you are making stuff up to sound important. Because I can buy 2 HK bolts from a place that purposely rips civilians a new one for the price the government pays for 500,000 M4A1s. If the government needed 500,000 416 bolts it likely would be a few dollars more than a standard bolt. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 4:13:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What steel is the M27 using? |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:00:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The HK bolt uses higher quality steel than C158. No way is it breaking bolts before the M4. The M4 has a bolt life of 3,000-6,000 rounds according to Crane. A basic M4A1 costs $678 from FN, a 416 bolt costs the civilian $330 from hkparts which is a stupidly overpriced website. So you are making stuff up to sound important. Because I can buy 2 HK bolts from a place that purposely rips civilians a new one for the price the government pays for 500,000 M4A1s. If the government needed 500,000 416 bolts it likely would be a few dollars more than a standard bolt. Here is one such report. And here is more of an opinion piece that touches base on the numerous new issues we are experiencing, when combining M855A1 and the M27. ETA: OP already touched base on the first article. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:45:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There actually have been reports of M27 bolts breaking before the conventional M4 bolts, when using M855A1. Seems the M27 is shearing lugs at a higher rate, due to the M855A1 being a hotter round. Here is one such report. And here is more of an opinion piece that touches base on the numerous new issues we are experiencing, when combining M855A1 and the M27. ETA: OP already touched base on the first article. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:52:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it may be related to the piston impulse and pressure curve of the powder. Opening the bolt while still under heavy loading may be causing issues with the lugs. It that's the case (and the issue hasn't already been solved by the newer lower pressure powder loads), it's possible a different gas port/buffer combination could help solve the problem. It also has a 8lb action spring and 5.3oz buffer. To small of a gas port and it won't overcome the heavy buffer spring, to heavy of a buffer spring and it won't have enough gas to cycle. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:58:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How small of a gas port can the 416 run? It's already using a .061" gas port. It also has a 8lb action spring and 5.3oz buffer. To small of a gas port and it won't overcome the heavy buffer spring, to heavy of a buffer spring and it won't have enough gas to cycle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think it may be related to the piston impulse and pressure curve of the powder. Opening the bolt while still under heavy loading may be causing issues with the lugs. It that's the case (and the issue hasn't already been solved by the newer lower pressure powder loads), it's possible a different gas port/buffer combination could help solve the problem. It also has a 8lb action spring and 5.3oz buffer. To small of a gas port and it won't overcome the heavy buffer spring, to heavy of a buffer spring and it won't have enough gas to cycle. The standard M4 is being beaten a bit, by the new round, but it still is lasting longer than the M27 at this point (While using M855A1). With the M855A1 being the new reality for the Marines, it might be time for them to ditch the M27 and field either product improvements on the standard M4 or grab an off the shelf upgrade with a KAC setup of some sort. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 7:08:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How small of a gas port can the 416 run? It's already using a .061" gas port. It also has a 8lb action spring and 5.3oz buffer. To small of a gas port and it won't overcome the heavy buffer spring, to heavy of a buffer spring and it won't have enough gas to cycle. Other alternatives include bolt material changes and cam pin channel changes. I'm interested in seeing what the final fix is. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 7:41:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those are questions for engineers to answer. My guess is you could go to an 8oz buffer on the current gas port and it would cycle just fine with the M855A1 that was breaking bolts. The only time it might be an issue is in extreme cold. Other alternatives include bolt material changes and cam pin channel changes. I'm interested in seeing what the final fix is. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 7:51:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like it's time to fix the issues and replace the M4. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:10:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only thing we know publically is it comes from Aubert & Duvall. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What steel is the M27 using? Buh dum tsssss! |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:44:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've got no problem replacing the M4, even at increased cost. I would prefer to be issued an M27. That said, it needs to be compatible with M855A1. If it's the chamber face just do away with the OTB chamber face and problem solved. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 2:05:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M4 has a bolt life of 3,000-6,000 rounds according to Crane. cuz.....i've got AR15's with way more than that but not any with full auto use...so guessing that is a factor too? |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 2:28:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All level iv ceramic plates will stop it. Should do well against dyneema type plates. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so let me see if i have this right....855a1 penetrates armor and steel better than mk318 but 318 is better on general barriers. is 855a1 capable of poking thru ceramic plates? if so, at what distance? Should do well against dyneema type plates. Also I think the powder in M855A1 was designed specifically for DI, so it could potentially be a problem in any piston gun. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 2:31:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is that a realistic number? are guys with military issued weapons actually breaking bolts at that rate? cuz.....i've got AR15's with way more than that but not any with full auto use...so guessing that is a factor too? |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 2:50:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is that a realistic number? are guys with military issued weapons actually breaking bolts at that rate? cuz.....i've got AR15's with way more than that but not any with full auto use...so guessing that is a factor too? |
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Posted: 7/8/2017 8:35:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so let me see if i have this right....855a1 penetrates armor and steel better than mk318 but 318 is better on general barriers. is 855a1 capable of poking thru ceramic plates? if so, at what distance? |
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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:28:56 AM EDT
[#32]
The problem is the ammo not the weapons. According to TM 43-0001-27, the chamber pressure for M855A1 is 59,000 PSI, M855 is 54,000 PSI and M193 is 52,000 PSI. All of the firearms listed in the previous post were designed before M855A1 was fielded.
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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:51:55 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem is the ammo not the weapons. According to TM 43-0001-27, the chamber pressure for M855A1 is 59,000 PSI, M855 is 54,000 PSI and M193 is 52,000 PSI. All of the firearms listed in the previous post were designed before M855A1 was fielded. and redesigning weapons isn't a bad thing. considering we've been using the same basic technology for about a century-and-a-half, I'd welcome any research and development |
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Posted: 7/26/2017 2:56:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem is the ammo not the weapons. According to TM 43-0001-27, the chamber pressure for M855A1 is 59,000 PSI, M855 is 54,000 PSI and M193 is 52,000 PSI. All of the firearms listed in the previous post were designed before M855A1 was fielded. Even with these new numbers the M27 struggles with the round. |
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