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Posted: 4/14/2017 4:13:13 PM EDT
I own a Sig 516 gen 2 and so far have found it to be an exceptional rifle. I found this recently released youtube video which discusses its development and how it in part was derived from the HK 416.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA5kVsPj6oA |
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Ive never had any issues with mine, great rifle. I think on of the reasons it never really took off was because of the hand guard. I don't have an issue with it, i like it actually, but aside from the carbon lancer, you are stuck with it. With the modularity of other rifles, this can be seen as an issue. Sig knocked it out of the park with the 516, IMO
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I agree with the handguard. It seems like a great rifle, but I think folks are really into keymod and mlok and they just don't like the picatinny. I'm still thinking of buying one of the sbr's however.
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There's some misinformation based on ignorance of the 416 series.
Once he got to the part discussing how none of the parts on a 416 are compatible with a standard DI gun, I turned it off. |
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I thought the issue was that SIG copied some of the piston parts, i.e. the bolt carrier, straight from the LWRC platform. SIG and LWRC bolt carriers are still interchangeable.
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The 516 is a great design. From what I understand the engineer was the guy or one of the guys who developed the HK416. Sig had a winner, but they chose not to continue further developement or refine it.
Sig has a reputation for putting out great rifle then just discontinue it. You see this with their 556 line. Now its their MCX. It seem like their focus is all over the map. I have a 522 that I love, but I fear its days are numbered. |
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If I were looking at a piston gun, LWRCI is hard to beat. The Sig 516 has real potential but it's dead IMO.
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I've never seen the desire for Sig.
There are those that love them, I'm glad they are happy. I just have no desire to own anything that is Sig |
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The 516 is a great design. From what I understand the engineer was the guy or one of the guys who developed the HK416. Sig had a winner, but they chose not to continue further developement or refine it. Sig has a reputation for putting out great rifle then just discontinue it. You see this with their 556 line. Now its their MCX. It seem like their focus is all over the map. I have a 522 that I love, but I fear its days are numbered. View Quote |
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LOL... that's not the SIG rep when it comes to long guns... View Quote |
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The lead for the 516 and MCX was (the lead?) Engineer on the 416.
People wanted a classic series rifle from SIG, but the costs to recreate them would make them unaffordable to the market. Much of the expensive stamping and welding equipment wasnt available and would need to be purchased. Then they made the 556 which basically sucked. Later they hired the 416 guy and his team built the 516. SIG was now producing 2 rifles. A piston AR and an outdated stamped metal rifle that needed constant revision. They started development on the 556 XI with the idea to modernize the 556 and make it more modern (multiple caliber, use serviceable barrel, ambi, etc...) except it didn't work even after dumping money into it. It was shelved. About that time, the 516 team was answering the call from the military for a small compact suppressed 300BLK rifle to be a contract alternative to the COTS proof of concept AAC Honeybadger. They built a short, dedicated gun called the MCX. At that point someone had an idea to make the MCX more marketable by making it a multicaliber rifle alternative to the HK416. More work was completed and the MCX project expanded and the development team and management realized the benefits of this rifle over the AR, 556n and 516 as SIGs flagship future rifle. Around the same time an engineer was hired to fix the 556XI to recoup development costs. The design was corrected and made a viable rifle. The world market wanted ARs, the military markets wanted the MCX, and the civilian market wanted classic SIGs like 552s, etc... The XI was destined to fail as it was an outdated rifle that competed directly with a newer more advanced rifle. The 516 and M400 continue to be produced because they're selling a lot of them. The MCX will continue to sell because there's a lot of interest from institutional purchasers and they're selling every one they make. The XI was a cool gun, but once it was shelved and the MCX transitioned from a dedicated 300BLK to an AR alternative it should have stayed shelved. The 556 had a long run, but it was outdated and difficult to build correctly. Market-wise it was an "also ran" but customers expect every rifle to hacer the same 50 years of development and standardization as the AR on day one. Which is unrealistic for any company. Hope this clears up some of the history of SIG rifles. |
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...and none of those are "great rifles." Why do you suppose they get discontinued? SIG would have been more than happy to make the sales on those rifles- the market rejected them, because they were junk. View Quote The 556 was discontinued after what, 12 years? It was discontinued in favor of the improved 556XI. The XI was a decent rifle, but it was discontinued because it directly competed (market and resource-wise) against the MCX which actually had a future. Resurrecting the XI was the big mistake business-wise inn their rifle lineup. (Making no mention of their habit of mass layoffs of experienced production employees then trying unsuccessfully to employ them as contractors resulting in a lack of competent assembly personnel) |
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Hahaha... oh, realllllly? And his name is: (Tell us!) View Quote http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=3707 Looks like he's with Carcal now. ETA: not sure why you feel the need to be condescending, it's not exactly uncommon knowledge. |
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The lead for the 516 and MCX was (the lead?) Engineer on the 416. People wanted a classic series rifle from SIG, but the costs to recreate them would make them unaffordable to the market. Much of the expensive stamping and welding equipment wasnt available and would need to be purchased. Then they made the 556 which basically sucked. Later they hired the 416 guy and his team built the 516. SIG was now producing 2 rifles. A piston AR and an outdated stamped metal rifle that needed constant revision. They started development on the 556 XI with the idea to modernize the 556 and make it more modern (multiple caliber, use serviceable barrel, ambi, etc...) except it didn't work even after dumping money into it. It was shelved. About that time, the 516 team was answering the call from the military for a small compact suppressed 300BLK rifle to be a contract alternative to the COTS proof of concept AAC Honeybadger. They built a short, dedicated gun called the MCX. At that point someone had an idea to make the MCX more marketable by making it a multicaliber rifle alternative to the HK416. More work was completed and the MCX project expanded and the development team and management realized the benefits of this rifle over the AR, 556n and 516 as SIGs flagship future rifle. Around the same time an engineer was hired to fix the 556XI to recoup development costs. The design was corrected and made a viable rifle. The world market wanted ARs, the military markets wanted the MCX, and the civilian market wanted classic SIGs like 552s, etc... The XI was destined to fail as it was an outdated rifle that competed directly with a newer more advanced rifle. The 516 and M400 continue to be produced because they're selling a lot of them. The MCX will continue to sell because there's a lot of interest from institutional purchasers and they're selling every one they make. The XI was a cool gun, but once it was shelved and the MCX transitioned from a dedicated 300BLK to an AR alternative it should have stayed shelved. The 556 had a long run, but it was outdated and difficult to build correctly. Market-wise it was an "also ran" but customers expect every rifle to hacer the same 50 years of development and standardization as the AR on day one. Which is unrealistic for any company. Hope this clears up some of the history of SIG rifles. View Quote They can import the SIG-553 while Swiss Arms still produces them and the collectors will have to pay the (sadly) high prices for them. My understanding is that they are likely going out of business soon anyways. |
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not a big fan of a piston rifle that still need maintenance like that. gas rings and cleaning of that op-rod, no thanks. that defeats half the reason to own a piston driven AR type and that is also the reason i dont own a SCAR 16 anymore, with its gas ring on the piston head to fail.
i had a POF piston upper and that stupid rotating gas plug would lock up when dirty..... oh wait....and so did the one on my SCAR. pain in the ass. i'd rather clean a DI gun that dick with these things. for those reasons alone, LWRC is the only one i'll own, although the PWS seems good too. |
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I have a gen 2 516. It is bullet proof. Every one that i know with the 516 and 716 have had zero issues with them. It is the most gun you can get for that money. The next competetor is a full $1000 more.
The coatings used cozt more than most homebuilders spend on parts. Throw in all the ninja alloys and enhancements and it is totally operator grade. |
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Thank you for your awesome insight. Lol. Why even post if it's just to shit in someone else's thread? View Quote My apologies if you were offended by my thoughts and post. Bashing the product or Sig was not my intent. The platform does have ties to HK, and that in its self is impressive. The platform was put out then left to rot and die. Sig does this regularly. They do not improve upon a design. They leave it to rot and move on to another....and repeat the process. It does not make it a bad rifle, its one that just does not get advanced. |
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The thread was geared towards the historical ties between the 516 and the 416.
NOT to bash SIG or the rifle. So i would agree with the above post. So to come to the thread and bash is just uncalled for. If you no likie, you no buyie. Simple. In SIGs defense, they are in no way bound to continue to upgrade or even continue to make any model they put out. I am thankful they made the rifle in the first place. When demand stops, so will they. Simple as that. Considering they sell em faster than they make em, it might be a while before they stop making them |
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The thread was geared towards the historical ties between the 516 and the 416. NOT to bash SIG or the rifle. So i would agree with the above post. So to come to the thread and bash is just uncalled for. If you no likie, you no buyie. Simple. In SIGs defense, they are in no way bound to continue to upgrade or even continue to make any model they put out. I am thankful they made the rifle in the first place. When demand stops, so will they. Simple as that. Considering they sell em faster than they make em, it might be a while before they stop making them View Quote The HK is having a bit of problems with it, as is the M4. Sig makes a darn robust bolt assembly, any ideas on durability and lifespan? |
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Considering their bolt materials are upgraded over the TDP equivalent, i douvt there will be any imore ssues than any other mfg.
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Robert Hirt http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=3707 Looks like he's with Carcal now. ETA: not sure why you feel the need to be condescending, it's not exactly uncommon knowledge. View Quote I like the MCX and 516. I hope the carcal model makes it here. |
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I agree with the handguard. It seems like a great rifle, but I think folks are really into keymod and mlok and they just don't like the picatinny. I'm still thinking of buying one of the sbr's however. View Quote Do you think the 516 would have done better if it had a KeyMod rail? Or even something more like the Knights Mod 1? Was it simply the pica tinny rail or the overall length that was the issue? |
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I own a Sig 516 gen 2 and so far have found it to be an exceptional rifle. I found this recently released youtube video which discusses its development and how it in part was derived from the HK 416. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA5kVsPj6oA View Quote Which channel's video was this? It has been removed. |
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The 516 is a great design. From what I understand the engineer was the guy or one of the guys who developed the HK416. Sig had a winner, but they chose not to continue further developement or refine it. Sig has a reputation for putting out great rifle then just discontinue it. You see this with their 556 line. Now its their MCX. It seem like their focus is all over the map. I have a 522 that I love, but I fear its days are numbered. View Quote Chris Sirois also worked on the 516, and the MCX. They both work for Caracal. |
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If I were looking at a piston gun, LWRCI is hard to beat. The Sig 516 has real potential but it's dead IMO. View Quote |
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Pretty sure Sig has abandoned the design in favor of the MCX. The 516 is a great gun, but too pricey for an AR15. The HK416 hasn't exactly taken off in the civilian market either, but HK has military contracts that keep the design profitable, so they don't really care about civilians.
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Pretty sure Sig has abandoned the design in favor of the MCX. The 516 is a great gun, but too pricey for an AR15. The HK416 hasn't exactly taken off in the civilian market either, but HK has military contracts that keep the design profitable, so they don't really care about civilians. View Quote |
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Gene Stoner designed the AR-18 after the AR-15 as a cheaper, easier to produce alternative that avoided patent infringement. Notwithstanding both the dubious claims that all modern piston ARs (and many other 5.56 piston guns) are derived from the AR-18 operating system and that the 516 may have edged into infringing on LWRC patents, the AR-18 itself when effectively nowhere, and few people believe the weapon itself (not its derivatives) to have been particularly successful.
If anything, the greatest contribution of that particular exercise were the lessons learned that were applied to other weapon systems to allow them to become more successful that could also be applied to the 516 and the MCX. ~Augee |
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If I were looking at a piston gun, LWRCI is hard to beat. The Sig 516 has real potential but it's dead IMO. Sig has brought a lot of great guns to market over the years...that they failed to support with parts, common access to them at normal stores, and unavailable barrel lengths, etc. With their selection for the US Military pistol...they are going to be flush with $$$ and have little time to do anything else. I expect them to suck at everything not related to that pistol for a couple of years. They should call it Colt Syndrome. |
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The HK416 hasn't exactly taken off in the civilian market either, but HK has military contracts that keep the design profitable, so they don't really care about civilians. View Quote However now, HK has only Oberndorf plant running and between lot of mil/le contracts they recently won and big volumes of VP9/40 they make for US market, they have a problem to meed demand on civilian market. |
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They are both workable designs IMO...but the future belongs to the one that shows up on the shelves of stores in quantity and at a price people will pay. Sig has brought a lot of great guns to market over the years...that they failed to support with parts, common access to them at normal stores, and unavailable barrel lengths, etc. With their selection for the US Military pistol...they are going to be flush with $$ and have little time to do anything else. I expect them to suck at everything not related to that pistol for a couple of years. They should call it Colt Syndrome. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
They are both workable designs IMO...but the future belongs to the one that shows up on the shelves of stores in quantity and at a price people will pay. Sig has brought a lot of great guns to market over the years...that they failed to support with parts, common access to them at normal stores, and unavailable barrel lengths, etc. With their selection for the US Military pistol...they are going to be flush with $$ and have little time to do anything else. I expect them to suck at everything not related to that pistol for a couple of years. They should call it Colt Syndrome. I've written quite a bit on the 556 series . It lasted 12 years before it was dropped; the XI should not have been in-shelved. It was originally developed in 2010 but they couldn't get it to run; so in 2013 they brought on an engineer to get it running which he did. By this time they had a second engineering group stood up to answer specific contracts in a fast and flexible manner. By the time XI was working, this second engineering group had answered a military contract and developed the MCX which was originally supposed to answer a specific contract, not be a general commercial project. Through it's development they figured out how to accomplish the goal as well as expand its capabilities as a general sales and use carbine. I liked and had a good amount of testing time on the 556XI, but I never would have bought one and advised against buying one. But if you are an "anything but an AR" guy, that's the risk you take. Best I can tell the 516 enjoys heavy sales both domestically and internationally, so I don't see them abandoning them anytime soon. However, the MCX is their "future" rifle and according to Coregon, in the short time it's been out it has sold significantly more units than the 556 did in it's entire sales run. With the number of units and the organizations who are adopting the MCX series I think the P320 and the MCX are the foreseeable future for SIG. SIG didn't set out to obsolete it's rifles, it's just something that sort of happened because of a contract request that came out that couldn't be satisfied by their existing product line. Quoted:
Actually HK cares about civilian market a lot. They are selling 4 variants of civi HK416 (MR223A3 in 11.5", 14.5", 16.5" and 20"), 5 civi variants of HK417 (MR308A3 in 13", 16,5" and 20" plus MR308A3-28 in 16.5" and 20") as well as civilian variant of G28 (designated G28Z - only difference from mil-spec model is using letter "Z" in designation). Also 2 variants of G36 (HK 234S SAR and 234S TAR). I would say, they have quite extensive offer of civilian variants of their military rifles. There is only one tiny detail that keeps them from offering those in USA - import ban. Going around this ban is difficult and expensive. Only real way is to actually manufacture stuff in US (as Polish FB Radom factory just learned hard way and closed FB Radom USA). HK will do that in new factory they are opening in USA to serve both mil/le and civilian market. However now, HK has only Oberndorf plant running and between lot of mil/le contracts they recently won and big volumes of VP9/40 they make for US market, they have a problem to meed demand on civilian market. If HK could get civilian 416s here sooner rather than later, that'd be great... While I'm sure they will provide the latest and greatest versions, I know many would like the legacy 10.5" guns as well. By all accounts they're great guns, but they aren't available to the largest firearms market in the world. |
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Quoted:By all accounts they're great guns, but they aren't available to the largest firearms market in the world. View Quote |
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Sig copied the LWRC design and LWRC sued and won a settlement against Sig. I have an LWRC REPR and M6-A3 DMR and both are very well built. But I wanted a 7.62 that was a little handier. Instead of getting a shorter upper from LWRC, for the same price, I picked up a Sig 716 Patrol. I only wish it had the side cocking handle. I also have an HK MR556A1 which is similar to the HK416 and the design appears to be different from the Sig/LWRC design.
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