Will a Piston Upper work well for 3 gun with a Geissele SD-3G Trigger?
That is to say, will the Piston system with stand the rapid fire capability that the trigger offers, or will it damage the piston, rod or bolt?

Thanks.

It won't damage anything but piston guns aren't as smooth shooting as a good DI rifle.

I use a PWS Mk116 and Adams Arms Evo Ultralight in 3-gun and run them fast... No problems.

You're not going to break anything.

I ran a Adams Arms piston in 3 gun , it lasted about 5 minutes before it took a shit.  

I went back to DI and haven't had any problems.

Chances are You won't be shooting enough to see any damage (provided you have a good rifle)


You will notice that the piston will not be as smooth

Unless you already have a piston ar, get a mildly decent "DI" ar go from there

I'm going to try it and if it doesn't work well, I'll switch it to a DI.

Thanks

     Tag for how your piston gun does.  I have an Adam Arms but I will never put it to the test like you guys and eager to hear your experience with it.

I could not find a SD-3G at the Gun Show today.
I ordered one online and it should be here by 1 Aug.

What piston system are you going to use?

Define "took a shit", in detail please.

I've run the snot out of AA's with a 20k plus rounds down range, as have many others, without issue.

I'll be using an Adams Arms Upper and a Rock River Lower with the SD-3G.
If it doesn't work very well, I'll switch it to a DI Upper.

More to follow.

I have a range day set up on 50 acres of land on the 15 of Aug.  

It should be fun.

Yeah I'm curious as well.  Everything I own I've put AA in and they're all sewing machines.  Now if you screw up a retrofit install then don't test BEFORE a match I'm thinking the system failure was the nut behind the trigger.

You should be fine. Pistons Ar's are pretty good from my experience. I have a SBR 300 blackout with a Syrac Ordnance piston that has been run in a few 3gun matches. Everything worked great except for user error, which was me putting the piston cap on wrong after cleaning the night before the match. So far I have over a 1K through my piston 300 gun and its great. Its been through a lot in training classes too

Considering the deafening silence, I'm guessing this whole event never happened.

Greg Jordan took out the 3 Gun Nation Championship last year with a PWS Mk118.....

Look up Eric Eckhart on 3 Gun Nation, he is a Adams Arms Team member running exclusively Adams Arms guns, you could say he is doing fairly well.

As far as recoil Piston guns 10 years ago you could say had more recoil now modern ones just as smooth as any DI gun. Set one up with a Comp you cannot tell the difference.

Quick video below my competition rifle see if you notice any recoil:

AA in all rifle match  

THERE seems to be a few  "tricks' to obtain ultra smooth piston competition guns:
1) Rifle length gas barrel. Specifically the Voodoo Innovations 16.5" Rifle length gas which is designed from the ground up for competition and ultra light weight

2) Some kind of fine gas adjustment. AA has finally gotten a LITTLE better with 4 or 5 settings now. I recommend the new EIGHTEEN position Sryrac ultra light weight tiny piston retro fit kit on the Voodoo barrel. This will be my next build. I am convince the barrel is crucial for smoothness whether you are DI or piston. You MUST have the capability of regulation the gas.

3) A good muzzle brake. Please do not purchase any  large boat anchor weight giant lead sinker characteristics of most big brakes on the market today, The PWS TTO (Tod's Tiny One) is the smallest, lightest, most effective brake I have found after testing over 20 brakes. The TTO seems to be made for that Voodoo barrel.

4) If you are a large enough shooter, go for the fixed rifle length buffer tube, buffer and spring.

5) Hydraulic buffers are much better designed today than the leaky ones of days past. Kynshot has a million round warranty. Having run several thousand rounds with one, I am optimistic. They have been around for several years and have a flawless reputation. Mine has no quirks. I dont notice any differences ither than smooooth shooting.
Using the charging handle has a  100% normal feel.

6) Chrome Silicon buffer spring.  Dont go too strong. Normal strength is actually preferred. You do NOT need heavy springs unless going full auto. The Kynshot loves full auto BTW if you have a RDIAS.

7) low mass bolt carrier. The AA COR comes with a low mass carrier. I used a full mass carrier. Either one will work. Go for the low mass if its an option, Syrac only offers a full mass carrier. That is not a deal breaker. Just use theor full mass with the Voodoo barrel. Syrac does have plans someday for a low mass carrier, BYTW.

Each and every member of the Adams Arms competition team runs the AA C.O.R. rifle which is a low profile piston based around the Voodoo ultra lightweight 16.5" barrel. Shooting this barrel with a non adjustable block is a really Bad idea. Like any other AR15 barrel of any gas length is is inherently over gassed by almost 40%. Just like all my top brand name mid length and carbine length barrels.  Watch the link in the post before mine. Those barrels dont even flinch. It is quite something to shoot a tuned Voodoo 16.5" rifle length gas barrel. Every person that shoots mine cant believe it is really shooting .223. No, it is not like a .22. Anyone who says that about their rifle is lying/exaggerating. More like a .22 magnum or a .17 caliber which is still VERY soft and almost zero muzzle flip. These things are more important to the competition shooter than the plinker. I happen to tune my plinkers the same as my highly tuned comp guns. They are all 100% reliable and morr fun to shoot IMO.
It takes about 10 minutes to tune a barrel for life using an adjustable gas system like Syrac DI clamp on (never, ever a set screw version)



In ALL the barrels I ever owned, only a single one (BCM), needed a very slight gas port enlargement since it was out of spec. All my other barrels needed significant gas reduction to obtain the optimum pulse and dwell resulting in a 4 o clock casing ejection and the lowest recoil and muzzle flip. Your speed and scores and plain old shooting fun level will go up dramatically from a tuned gas block

You CAN run carbine buffers and tubes with a rifle length gas system just fine. Note that Kynshot makes a carbine length buffer too.

I tune my gas for PMC Bronze (a weak ammo) which will cycle ALL the other ammos I shoot> Wolf, Tula, and Freedom Munitions. If i was a pro shooter , I would tune the gun specifically for the ammo I shoot in competition. To be honest, I shoot PMC or Freedom Munitions in comp and they do just fine.

I shoot a full mas WMD BCG but you can experiment with low mass carriers for even less recoil. AA finally has a really nice low mass carrier that comes stock in their COR rifle. Just saying.

James Yeager who likes AK's mostly, did an extensive eight part review on the unworldly smoothness of the AA COR rifle which uses this Voodoo 16.5" rifle length gas barrel.  There are videos pf them dinging steel easy peasy at 500 yards. Only VERY minor stringing after rapid NINETY round dumps. That stringing only shows up starting at 200 yards. It is more a shift in POI than actual stringing.  Groups shift poi at 200 yards by one inch. The groupings remain the same .75MOA to 1.25MOA depending on ammo. No one will have to do a 90 round mag dump in competition. I have not found any other barrel like this. It is smooth shooter with piston OR DI.

I will not use any other barrel now for my builds. Next build will be a PISTON build using the new 18 position Syrac kit

     Nice writeup.  How do you guys feel about a 10.5" piston gun with a can?  I picked up a .223 direct thread suppressor and am just waiting on a good deal on a 10.5" piston upper.

Just to add a little bit to what has already been said. I run an Adams COR 16.5" upper on a RRA lower for competitions. I haven't had problems with Timney, RRA or Aero triggers. I can slap my upper on a friend's lower with the Geissele SD-3G trigger to check, next match is the 10th. I haven't had any issues with premature wear on my upper. I haven't run it full auto but 40+ round courses of fire with plenty of doubles on paper haven't hurt anything.

As Stukas indicated, with modern compensators the's not nearly as much difference between recoil comparing piston and DI guns as you would think. Having said that, a lot of the more advanced comps have much lower concussion while still providing excellent  recoil reduction. You don't need to give your RO's a headache to reduce recoil anymore! The Adams low mass bolt carrier made a BIG difference for me as well compared to the full mass carrier I had been using.

Depending on your local 3-Gun matches, the 16.5" rifle length gas will get you out to 500 yards if you do your part. If your local matches only go out to 200 or are mostly bay style matches inside of 50 yards, you might even check out a 14.5" upper with a pinned comp. Word is that Adams is setting up a shorter package for 3GN Pro style stages using a 14.5" upper but using intermediate gas to get an even faster "go-fast" rifle for short courses.

The biggest advantage the piston gives me is after a 2 day competition, my bolt still has the same oil on it and very little carbon fouling. Cleaning is trivial due to their LifeCoat finish; it really does keep the little carbon that does get into the action from binding.

You want to avoid pre made  uppers like the bubonic plague, unless they have adjustable gas blocks or best yet, an adjustable piston system.
It is well known that SBR's especially running suppressors benefit greatly from running a variable gas piston system.
I recommend the Syrac piston with 18 different settings.

A non adjustable gas system on a any barrel of any length is just plain foolish. The level of stupidity (not having gas adjustment) increases as the barrel gets shorter.

I do not see much value for the really short SBR;s in .223 because of ridiculously poor ballistics.
300 Black out on the other hand is specifically designed to get a FULL powder burn in a 9" barrel attaining more than reasonable ballistics that don't increase exponentially as much as you would think with added barrel length.    A 9" 300 BO can get you out to 300 yards with reasonable accuracy and terminal punch.

I looked at the cost of some other 300 BO uppers and am sicked and appalled at the price and the poor design.

It is just exactly the same as ANY other upper except you use a 300 BO barrel. EVERYTHING else is the same. You can find 100% nitrided 9-10" barrels for VERY reasonable prices. A Sryac piston retro fit kit in pistol length will only run you about $100 EXTRA over a similar DI system. The total added weight is a whopping 1.4oz.

Come on. This is s total NO BRAINIER. Build it yourself. End up with a world class upper for half the price as a fancy name brand upper.
Please avoid these pre made uppers like a plague. Even if you need a friend to do the assembly, make them from scratch.      The pre built uppers I have seem for ANY price have been PURE CRAP.

Just find yourself a reasonable 9 inch 300 BO barrel and a Syrac piston kit and go from there. I recommend AP customs Gen 2 hand guards with top rail or plain with no dedicated top rail. Add in a Law Tactical folding mechanism and an SBR stamp and a suppressor and you have yourself a world class upper that you simply can no purchase since nobody makes one.

The nice thing about the AP customs handgun is that you can shroud as much of your 1.5" diameter (typical size) easily because the inside diameter of the guard is a full 2 inches!!!

The Syrac piston block will just squeak upper the AP customs too BTW. Its a win win. The weight savings are significant as well. The Carbon fiber forms a much better heat shield around a hot suppressor too!

.223 in a 10.5"? Thats fine as long as you have an adjustable piston system. How many clicks do you get? Even AA only has 3 to 4..maybe 5 adjustments. To get the most out of your SBR, you need a broader range of finer adjustments like with the Syrac piston kit.  But the new AA XLP block is not horrible. That would be the bare minimum I wold settle for.

Dont go more less than 10.5"  in .223.

You can easily do 8.5 to 9" in 300 Black out. Remember, you need a piston for all these SBR's for best function. DI has been used for years and I think it sucks for SBR's. I dont mind adjustable DI for 14.5" and longer. I build plenty of DI guns, but piston certainly have their place.
I may never go back to DI, however, since the introduction of the new Syrac kit. I see that as a game changer.

bosundave   Great points also I agree on the Kynshot Hydraulic buffers I have been running two a 5.56 and a 7.62 one for over a year now.

Now shorty guns using piston systems allows really any barrel length. I have a Adams Arms 7.5 from 2007, a AA 10.5 from 2007 and a current AA Tactical Elite 11.5 all have the AA three setting gas block (full gas, half gas, no gas). I have run the 11.5 suppressed.

11.5


10.5 on Sabre Upper


7.5

Trigger arrived and in place. Awaiting the big day with my friends. I have 2 uppers to test it with. 1 piston and 1 DI, so I'll see which works best for me.  Thanks.

Took the SD-3G to the private range with both uppers. I did notice that the DI upper seemed a bit smother.  However, my friend who has a bump fire stock and has experience with rapid fire and I could not get the performance out of the trigger we were looking for.  We went through about 200 rds of .223 and managed to obtain only about 3 or 4 nice multi-round (4 to 5) exchanges. We also had about 10 light strikes where we had to eject the round to re-cock the hammer.  I'll try the range a few more times to see what we may have done wrong, but if I cannot find something specific or something on line, then this was a serious waste of $263.00 IMHO.   For single fire it's nice, but that is not what I was wanting at this price.

Is .223 an issue?

What performance were you looking for?  Also, were you combining the bump fire stock with your trigger?  I would double check the hammer spring to make sure it isnt both installed upside down or under the trigger pin.

No the Bump Fire stock was on another weapon.
What I'm looking for is the performance I've seen on You Tube.
The ability to create small burst, one after another as in 3 Gun competition.

The Hammer spring is installed correctly.

Umm... You're not going to do this through bump fire.  Trigger control and controlled pairs is what you need.  You can do that with a stock, mil-spec trigger... It'll just be easier with higher quality triggers.

Oh my! You have some VERY nice SBR's here! Sweet. Yes, the Kynshot seems to have corrected the problems that Enendine had. I have not heard of any Kynshots leaking. They have a lifetime guarantee. Yet 99% of shooters are scared to death of them. Fine. It will be our secret then.

I had several range officers lined up waiting to shoot my self built AR because no one could believe how soft it shot.  Mind you, the Kynshot was just one of many things I did to get such a soft shooter. But it definitely plays a part.

My next build will be a 16 position adjustable Syrac piston kit on a 9" 300 BLK barrel, Omega suppressor, Aero Preciion Upper, AP Short throw lower, ACE fixed stock carbine length, Law Tactical folding device.

I want a LONG, 13" ultra lightweight hand guard that will clear my gas block and cover most of the 6.5" suppressor too. Any ideas? My usual AP Customs Carbon Fiber guard is about 1/10 of an inch to small in inner diameter. I need a rail that will clear the Syrac and cover a 1.5" suppressor too. The BMC rail is only 1.3" ID even though it has a top channel that will allow clearance for the Syrac. Any ideas anyone? I was really hoping the AP customs would fit. I may just cut out a window for the top of the gas block since that is the only clearance problem area with the AP Customs.