Right, I was just pointing out to those saying that the AR180 was the next step in the evolution and was superior to the AR15 that it was a step in a different direction, not the next step for the AR15.
In my opinion, the AR15 was superior and a more fitting weapon system for a first world nation.

I see that notion a lot, of it being the "next step". It clearly was not, based on the material construction/design.

It is interesting though, that the AR18 design has been more "influential" in other designs. I'd love a modern AR180, made from billet/forgings, as it would be a fun system to experiment with. I will always maintain my ownership of my DI and gas piston AR15s though.

ETA: Sorry for assisting in the derail of the topic. I'll return it back to Gas piston AR15 design vs DI.

Cuz that topic has not been talked about enough......  

There are two type of "success" in arms design:  Success of the design itself, and Success of the weapon.

Two examples:

1) The tilting bolt lock of the M1896 Lee Straight Pull, as refined by Browning in the M1898 Machine Gun
2) The turnbolt design of the Lee-Medford/Lee-Enfield.

While the Lee Straight-Pull (the first small caliber military rifle, by the way) was short-lived and the Colt M1898 is largely forgotten, the tilting bolt design was recycled and reused uncountable times over the 120 years since its introduction, in almost every country that had an indigenous weapon design in pistols, rifles and machine guns.

The Lee turn bolt design enjoyed great success in  Great Britain and served their armed forces for almost 100 years in one form or another, but nobody every felt the design had enough merit, or its drawbacks out-weighed its virtues, to copy any of its principles.  These evolutionary cul de sac litter the gun world.

The SVT/G43 short-stroke gas piston is quite successful, and has enjoyed many years of flattery from gun designers.

L

You're exactly correct; and ArmaLite's first use of the SVT/G43 short-stroke tappet gas piston system was on their AR-12 prototype, reportedly because they had transferred the DI patent rights to Colt's. The AR-12 prototype appears to have first been DI, then the gas tube hole in the carrier was plugged and the SVT/G43 type piston integrated into the design to avoid patent infringement. The AR-12 and most of the ArmaLite prototypes now reside at KAC's museum in Titusville, FL.

This image from Small Arms Review magazine shows some of the path that ArmaLite took in rifle development and is an interesting read, if not somewhat off base with crediting all of ArmaLite's products to Stoner himself.



Link to AR-12/AR-16/AR-18 thread on arfcom

Am I the only one looking at that, but feeling this?

Probably the 2nd most produced piston-gun in history, and certainly the most widely adopted.  LOVE mine...

Another GREAT example!

Great post, thanks.

A strong third behind the AK and SKS.

While adopted by many countries, most of those countries didn't buy/build millions of them.  The Soviets tended to use SKSs and AKs as a form of foreign aid currency.

FN Hestal made 2 million, say the British/Commonwealth made another 2 million, and say all the licensed producers together made another 4 million, that's 8 million, still shy if the approximately 15 million SKS production.

I was referrng to the number of countries that adopted by choice.  Close to 100.  Didn't get its nickname of the "right arm of the western world" for nothing.  You are correct on all counts though.  West generally expected you to PAY for their stuff, while the reds were happy to have the influence over you for the cost of something they could build for seemingly pennies on their influence ruble.  Priorties, priorties...