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Page AR-15 » AR Piston Systems
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 3/15/2015 7:25:50 PM EDT
I was talking to a vendor at the show and asked about a free floating rail, and was told he did not carry any piston AR products.  Asked if it was because the gas impingement AR's were the majority.  He said no, that he did not want to handle them because of a reliability issue with the piston rod breaking of the BCG key off.
 I had not heard this before, has anyone out there had this problem?  He did not say the key got loose, broke is what he said.
Link Posted: 3/15/2015 7:28:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Well, yeah, pretty sure a piston system is not designed to run with a standard gas key.
Link Posted: 3/15/2015 7:47:58 PM EDT
[#2]
This vendor BCG for a piston set up.  I mentioned that my Adams Arms carrier key was not bolted in, it was all one piece.  He said they still have a breaking problem.
Link Posted: 3/15/2015 7:54:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 3/15/2015 9:10:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Thanks, that may be his reason for saying that.
Link Posted: 3/15/2015 11:56:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Just because he is a vendor doesn't mean he knows everything. He might just have a chip on his shoulder or doesn't carry them.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 1:22:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just because he is a vendor doesn't mean he knows everything. He might just have a chip on his shoulder or doesn't carry them.
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I can attest to this, having been in the gun business for the last 10 years. Some guys refuse to change their viewpoints (the older you get, the less you want to learn...................so says my 60-year-old father) and some just plain push what makes them money. The "new fangled" gas-piston AR platform is here to stay. The impingement "purist" had better learn to deal with it!
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 10:01:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 10:17:56 AM EDT
[#8]
OP, you have learned the simple fact of what happens when ignorance is considered knowledge by someone who is stupid.

You see, ignorance is not knowing something; a good thing to admit as it prompts one to seek knowledge (as the OP has shown in posting here)

Stupidity is believing your ignorance is actually knowledge when it is only a sign that says "I'm a dumb ass"

At 65 I am proud of my ignorance and constantly seek answers to it. I am one who feels you are never too old to learn new things

5 years ago being ignorant of AR pistons I came here and asked for advice and received a bunch of good council on pistons
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 10:57:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just because he is a vendor doesn't mean he knows everything. He might just have a chip on his shoulder or doesn't carry them.
View Quote


This
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 11:57:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks, I am happy with my AA AR and looking at the solid carrier key, I had a hard time believing it would break off.  Another forum member mentioned that the early piston guns used a bolted rod key, and even posted a picture of a kit.  All it GTG.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 1:48:45 PM EDT
[#11]
And ironically, the same blowhards that insist that the AK is more reliable than the AR will tell you AR piston kits are useless crap.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 2:59:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Thats news to us... We have never received one of our carriers back that was broken, nor have we had that issue in any testing. Some of our demo guns have in excess of 50K rounds through them and the carriers are still going strong
View Quote


About a week ago I had my Adams Arms 7.62X39 apart for cleaning and noticed the carrier key looked bent/crooked. Upon further inspection I found the rear carrier key screw was loose and in fact it was actually sheared off. I only have around 200 rounds through it. I have an extra AA carrier key but I can not get the sheared off screw out. It is really hard to try and drill and I doubt an easy out would even work since it is red loctited in.  The reason I have this older AA setup is because when I bought my AR 15 Performance "super bolt" there was a warning it would not work in an AA carrier.

Link Posted: 3/16/2015 5:50:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Hit that red loctite with a propane torch for a few minutes and it will break down.  The best bet is a left handed drill bit.  Fastenal sells some good ones by Norseman Tool and even has some kits if I remember correctly, MSC Direct and McMaster-Carr are good sources as well.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 7:31:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Not quite. The left-handed thing you're referring to is NOT a drill bit, it's a screw extractor, AKA an EZ-out:
http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Tools-53545-Spiral-Extractors/dp/B001D1FXDE/ref=sr_1_10

You need to drill a hole in the broken screw first. You'll probably need a carbide bit to drill the hole because the screws are hardened. A 1/8 ball end mill should work:
http://www.amazon.com/Kodiak-Made-Diameter-Ball-Carbide/dp/B0070YYQZO/ref=sr_1_3

Once you get the hole drilled in the broken screw, you can screw the extractor in turning it counter-clockwise. Apply heat while turning the extractor, and the screw should come out fairly readily.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 8:30:35 PM EDT
[#15]
No, I am referring to a left handed drill bit.  I sold this product and other machine tools for quite a while, including the carbide end mill you recommended.  Unlike a ball-nose end mill, which will require specific equipment to use properly, a drill bit can be used in the low setting on a drill (ideally, a drill press).  The reason a left handed drill bit is the best solution:  because it is twisting in the counter clockwise motion it is both removing material AND loosening the screw simultaneously.  Heat with a torch to break down the loctite and go to town.
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 1:55:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


About a week ago I had my Adams Arms 7.62X39 apart for cleaning and noticed the carrier key looked bent/crooked. Upon further inspection I found the rear carrier key screw was loose and in fact it was actually sheared off. I only have around 200 rounds through it. I have an extra AA carrier key but I can not get the sheared off screw out. It is really hard to try and drill and I doubt an easy out would even work since it is red loctited in.  The reason I have this older AA setup is because when I bought my AR 15 Performance "super bolt" there was a warning it would not work in an AA carrier.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/35spline/Guns/IMG_2442_zpscyot9x9v.jpg
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thats news to us... We have never received one of our carriers back that was broken, nor have we had that issue in any testing. Some of our demo guns have in excess of 50K rounds through them and the carriers are still going strong


About a week ago I had my Adams Arms 7.62X39 apart for cleaning and noticed the carrier key looked bent/crooked. Upon further inspection I found the rear carrier key screw was loose and in fact it was actually sheared off. I only have around 200 rounds through it. I have an extra AA carrier key but I can not get the sheared off screw out. It is really hard to try and drill and I doubt an easy out would even work since it is red loctited in.  The reason I have this older AA setup is because when I bought my AR 15 Performance "super bolt" there was a warning it would not work in an AA carrier.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/35spline/Guns/IMG_2442_zpscyot9x9v.jpg


My ARP "Superbolt", 7.62x39 works fine with my AA solid bolt carrier.  I don't believe it is an issue now.
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 8:14:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Carrier key bolts shearing off is not exclusive to piston guns. I've seen it happen to DI guns as well. The screws are a weak point, although failures are pretty rare.

Regarding tools, using a left-handed twist drill bit is of limited value because the drill isn't going to apply enough torque to budge the screw while drilling. And trying to use it to extract the screw is a bad idea, the bit is likely to snap off.

A ballnose end mill can be used in a standard drill or drill press if all you're trying to do is drill a hole. The round tip keeps the thing centered in the hole, just the same way the point on a standard drill does. Carbide will chew through the hardened steel of the broken screw better than a standard drill bit.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 8:44:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


About a week ago I had my Adams Arms 7.62X39 apart for cleaning and noticed the carrier key looked bent/crooked. Upon further inspection I found the rear carrier key screw was loose and in fact it was actually sheared off. I only have around 200 rounds through it. I have an extra AA carrier key but I can not get the sheared off screw out. It is really hard to try and drill and I doubt an easy out would even work since it is red loctited in.  The reason I have this older AA setup is because when I bought my AR 15 Performance "super bolt" there was a warning it would not work in an AA carrier.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/35spline/Guns/IMG_2442_zpscyot9x9v.jpg
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thats news to us... We have never received one of our carriers back that was broken, nor have we had that issue in any testing. Some of our demo guns have in excess of 50K rounds through them and the carriers are still going strong


About a week ago I had my Adams Arms 7.62X39 apart for cleaning and noticed the carrier key looked bent/crooked. Upon further inspection I found the rear carrier key screw was loose and in fact it was actually sheared off. I only have around 200 rounds through it. I have an extra AA carrier key but I can not get the sheared off screw out. It is really hard to try and drill and I doubt an easy out would even work since it is red loctited in.  The reason I have this older AA setup is because when I bought my AR 15 Performance "super bolt" there was a warning it would not work in an AA carrier.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/35spline/Guns/IMG_2442_zpscyot9x9v.jpg



Quoted:
Quoted:
This vendor BCG for a piston set up.  I mentioned that my Adams Arms carrier key was not bolted in, it was all one piece.  He said they still have a breaking problem.



Thats news to us... We have never received one of our carriers back that was broken, nor have we had that issue in any testing. Some of our demo guns have in excess of 50K rounds through them and the carriers are still going strong.



This post was in reference to our 1 piece bolt carriers, the older system does have issues with breakage that's the main reason we design and build our own carriers now.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 11:10:19 AM EDT
[#19]
This post was in reference to our 1 piece bolt carriers, the older system does have issues with breakage that's the main reason we design and build our own carriers now.
View Quote


I think I should just migrate to the new carrier especially since Jonwienke reports the ARP superbolt will work. Is there any warranty left on my older AA system?
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 11:12:20 AM EDT
[#20]
I have cracked one and loosened another , both on gas guns.

Never had an issue with a piston gun.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 11:56:42 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think I should just migrate to the new carrier especially since Jonwienke reports the ARP superbolt will work. Is there any warranty left on my older AA system?
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I concur with getting a 1-piece carrier, but I didn't say anything about Superbolt compatibility. But as long as the cam pin hole is the same diameter & location and the body of the bolt is the same max diameter, it should work.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 6:36:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Sorry it was Assh that said.

My ARP "Superbolt", 7.62x39 works fine with my AA solid bolt carrier. I don't believe it is an issue now.
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 7:53:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I was talking to a vendor at the show and asked about a free floating rail, and was told he did not carry any piston AR products.  Asked if it was because the gas impingement AR's were the majority.  He said no, that he did not want to handle them because of a reliability issue with the piston rod breaking of the BCG key off.
 I had not heard this before, has anyone out there had this problem?  He did not say the key got loose, broke is what he said.
View Quote


Do they have AR15's in California?? Looks like the have not only banned evil guns, but they have succeeded in banning knowledge about them as well !!!!
mbell556
Link Posted: 3/24/2015 1:23:57 PM EDT
[#24]
The Ares Defense / Bushmaster piston kits use a solid bolt carrier.  No broken keys here.

Link Posted: 3/24/2015 4:34:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:09:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Of course it's still covered by out lifetime warranty. Email [email protected] and we'll get you squared away.
View Quote


That's fantastic customer service,  thank you so much!
Link Posted: 3/28/2015 7:42:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Carrier key bolts shearing off is not exclusive to piston guns. I've seen it happen to DI guns as well. The screws are a weak point, although failures are pretty rare.

Regarding tools, using a left-handed twist drill bit is of limited value because the drill isn't going to apply enough torque to budge the screw while drilling. And trying to use it to extract the screw is a bad idea, the bit is likely to snap off.

A ballnose end mill can be used in a standard drill or drill press if all you're trying to do is drill a hole. The round tip keeps the thing centered in the hole, just the same way the point on a standard drill does. Carbide will chew through the hardened steel of the broken screw better than a standard drill bit.
View Quote

The funny thing is most failure of this type are started by a small crack induced by over-torquing.

Tighter is not always better.
Page AR-15 » AR Piston Systems
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
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