I recently added a brand new LWRC M6IC to my collection.  This is my second LWRC.  First was a M6A2.  I've owned dozens of different ARs of all flavors including factory complete as well as many builds.  I've also owned several piston varieties including my former LWRC, POF, 3 Sigs, LMT and a Adams upper.  Of all the different ARs this is the very first time I've ever had FTF issues which is quite frustrating considering its the most expensive of all the ones mentioned.

The IC is brand new, 14.7" barrel with pinned FH.  Pictures below to show the rifle I'm speaking about.  Before anyone asks, gas was in proper setting and I properly inspected and cleaned prior to first range session.  Rifle is completely factory accept the added optics.

I took the rifle out yesterday and wanted to test it out and break it in.  I used a large variety of mags to include standard GI mags, Magpul Gen II and Gen III both 20 and 30 round, and even my factory supplied IWI Tavor mag.  I was using Hornady V-max 55 grain, Federal XM 193, PMC X-Tac 193 and some Wolf Tulammo 55 grain.

I started with the 20 round mags and the Federal and PMC ammo in order to sight in my Aimpoint.  Once I was sighted in I switched to the Hornady ammo as this is what I use here for prairie dog shooting.  Again, everything was fine and I was satisfied with accuracy considering the wind.  Finally I switched to some mags loaded with the Wolf Tulammo ammo so I could burn through some ammo doing some rapid fire and test the rifle out in different scenarios.  This is when the frustration hit.  I could not fire anymore than one round at a time with the Wolf Tulammo.  It would fire and extract the spent case but would not feed the next round.  I tried every combination of mag with the same result.  I even went back to the Federal and PMC and used the same mags for comparison and everything was back to working fine.  So I'm convinced I've narrowed it down to the ammo specifically.

It was as if the BCG wasn't traveling far enough back to properly load the next round in the mag.  I find this very frustrating because I want all my rifles to be able to use whatever ammo I throw at them.  I don't normally use Tulammo ammo but I don't want to be limited either.  It leaves a shred of doubt in my mind every time I pull the trigger as to whether or not its going to function properly.  No other rifle I've owned has ever had an issue feeding steel cased ammo.  While I was at the range I even switched to using the Tulammo ammo in my Tavor rifle and it fed just fine.

I have done some searches and have picked up a few articles/threads where others have complained of similar issues with Tulammo ammo and their LWRC rifles.  If this the way it is and I have a rifle that has a picky diet I will most definitely be eliminating it from my collection as I have plenty of others to choose from that eat whatever I give them.  But before I go that route I wanted to check here and see if anyone else has similar issues and possible fixes.  This is the first rifle I have that has an H2 buffer.  The heaviest I've ever used is just a standard H buffer.  Is the buffer to heavy for Tulammo ammo?  Is it a matter of more rounds to loosen things up and "break in" the rifle?  (by the end of the range session I had put over 300 rounds through the LWRC and still the problem persisted when using the Tulammo)  Is there anything else that will help?

This was a considerably expensive rifle and one that I wanted to add to keep around for a while.  I'm hoping there are some good suggestions to help solve this issue.

Thanks in advance,
BigBrakes76  

If you switch the buffer spring to a lighter one you can get it to run Wolf but that will/may cause excessive wear with "decent" ammo.

The fact your LWRC is properly tuned to run 5.56 and not under powered ammo is (IMO) a good thing

Pardon me if i don't feel a little sorry for that fine rifle being fed crap

Wulfmann

Trust me, Wolf is a last resort and typically not used.  The wife picked me up a bunch last year when ammo was VERY scarce.  I hate Wolf but I love her for supporting my addiction!

I don't plan on using cheap steel cased ammo often, if at all, but should the need arise I would like to be able to.  I want to be able to run this rifle hard and it come back asking for more.  

Next range session I think Ill swap out buffer and see what happens.  I still have several hundred Wolf rounds left.  My other concern is what other ammo will give me issues?  I don't make it a habit, but sometimes I pick up "cheap" ammo to use to punch holes in paper and take family and friends out to enjoy my hobby.

BigBrakes

Under powered ammo will give you problems. Wolf is underpowered.

Some piston owners have also noticed after using a lot of Wolf they have trouble with brass cases sticking in the chamber.
This is caused by the fact there is greater pressure on the chamber area because the piston contains more of that that pressure unlike a DI gun.
Because steel cases do not expand and seal the chamber like brass carbon may build in the chamber walls meaning the chamber will actually accumulate hot carbon and shrink the chamber size enough to cause some problems.
This is easily avoided by regularly cleaning the chamber when using steel cased ammo.

This is not reported often perhaps because people clean their guns, don't shoot enough steel to accumulate carbon or it is only noticeable in tighter chambers

It sounds like you have other guns that can use the Wolf.
I know my PWS Mod1 can adjust the gas to add pressure as my FS2000 did but I prefer not to run crap ammo.
My E320 uses high Octane gas and the fact it won't run well on regular is not a concern to me

In fairness your title LWRC FTF issues is not accurate.
FTF with Wolf puts the cause where it should be as the rifle seems to be working as it should and the title unfairly points at the gun instead of the ammo

Wulfmann

I titled my thread that way as this is the only rifle that I've ever had the issue with no matter the ammo used.

I am definitely OCD and clean as required after any shooting sessions, especially after shooting the cheap stuff.  But I appreciate your tips/info as I didn't realize the effects steel cased ammo could have in the long run in regards to the chamber.  Definitely good to know as I had never considered that.

I definitely understand your point and appreciate your comments.  I also understand your analogy of cheap gas in your premium ride.  But to continue to use the same analogy....I live in the desert more than 100 miles from anywhere.  My F-150 reliably gets me anywhere I want to go no matter how far, how hot or the terrain no matter the quality of the gas that might be available at the very few and far between gas stations out here in the middle of no where.  I need to be able to burn what's available without getting stuck.  Basically I need a tool that meets my needs.

I am not questioning the quality of my LWRC rifle.  I just didn't realize ammo selection would be an issue.  Possibly my bad for making assumptions and not researching more.  I just wanted a high quality rifle that would eat what I fed it and serve me well out here where sometimes options are limited.

If having a spare buffer and spring in my bag solves this problem...great.  I guess I also wish there was an "adverse" gas setting that simplified all of this.  I want to run underpowered crap, twist the setting and run it.  Get back to quality ammo, back to standard setting.

I just didn't realize this would be an issue as I've never experienced it before.

BigBrakes

Making the car comparison to guns well, I would have to say I have a Ram 1500 and it uses regular gas and I can haul a gun safe and have.
That, however, does not mean there is a deficiency in my E320 because it can not hail a gun safe.
If I had only one vehicle it would matter (If you had one gun??)

I understand the desire for compatibility on ammo but we are not talking about the LWRC shooting IMI and GGG fine but not AMA or ADI.
We are talking it shoots what it was designed perfectly and does not shoot what is not loaded to 5.56 specs which in fact means it is functioning correctly.
It is a more finely tuned weapon at least that is how I perceive it

The more latitude with ammo pressure can mean higher pressure ammo is slapping metal to metal harder (with a softer buffer spring) and while more convenient it may not be as good a thing as it seems (accelerated wear??) but that is deductive supposition on my part with no actual evidence.

Wulfmann

If he only used the H buffer with the wolf steel ammo and swapped back to the H2 for the brass, I would think it wouldn't have accelerated wear but I have no factual evidence to support my theory either. But seems it is having difficulties pushing back the heavy buffer and a lighter should, theoretically, make it possible.

I was by no means implying a deficiency, if that's how it came off, I apologize.  I guess a better way to say it is a "characteristic".  To me the ability to run a broader range of ammo is a characteristic I was looking for.  Even if that meant more wear and a slightly shorter life span.

And you are right in that I have more than one rifle so there are plenty of options here.  I just wasn't expecting this as an issue.  The issue could very well be attributed to a higher quality product with tighter and more finely tuned specs.  

I was just not expecting it.   It was frustrating and slightly embarrassing to have this issue arise.  My brother (complete AR noob) who was here to visit was with me and had brought his Cabela's purchased DPMS rifle.  While I was troubleshooting he was plinking away burning through my ammo.  Explaining to him why my higher quality rifle with much tighter specs was having issues was irritating to say the least.

I am in no way arguing with you Wulfmann.  I'm just not happy with this issue.  Either there is a solution or this quite possibly isn't the rifle for me as I'm looking for something that has the ability to run even the fringe of compatible ammo.  

BigBrakes

**UPDATE***

I was just looking through my ammo and mags I had with me at the range yesterday and I was incorrect about the ammo that was giving me issues.  I had used up the Wolf ammo that I had a few range sessions ago and was actually having the issues with some Tulammo.  I might be incorrect but I thought that Tulammo and Wolf were manufactured at the same place to the same specs.  I might be COMPLETELY wrong about that.

The main point is that the Tulammo works fine in every single other rifle I have but has only caused me issues in the new LWRC IC.

Sorry again about the incorrect info in my original post.  If the difference between Tulammo and Wolf is a factor, please let me know.

Thanks,

BigBrakes76

The rifle doesn't like underpowered ammo.

That's not going to change.

You're unhappy with that.

Sell it and move on.

Junk in = Junk out!!

Stop shooting Tula.
Start shooting Wolf Gold.
Profit.

I still think you sound like you are saying you are disappointed your Porsche Turbo can't go mudden like your F150 4X4.

The LWRC is tuned to a more precise level and assumes you will treat it like it is what it is.

Tula is some of the lowest pressure ammo in 223. It is not 5.56 and it says so on the box

It can be hard to tell where Russian 223 comes from as it changes with each shipment. Some Wolf is the same as Tula some is completely different.
Wolf is a brand name not a manufacture.

Your friend should check his DPMS warranty. If he uses any foreign ammo it voids his warranty.
The fact his gun has less precise tolerances does not make it better

I have Frankenbuilds that while vastly superior to DPMS would be what I would run crap ammo if I had no choice but being well stocked with good ammo I just don't get the mentality in case I have to use crap ammo!!! That is like saying I have to have a gun in every possible caliber in case I can only get some obscure ammo

LWRC makes the finest engineered AR rifles and the only gun I like better is the PWS MK1 Mod1 because it has a different piston system that allows it to be both lighter and better balanced (that and i can buy a EXPS3 and a Geissele and have money left over) and that is no slight to the LWRC.
It is just to me lighter and balanced is more important to the things I like about the LWRC over the PWS.

Now, the Mod1 MK114 has adjustable gas so could use Tula but that to is irrelevant because I won't use "Bimetal" bullets in my guns and if I had no choice I would, as stated, put them in a Frankenbuild

Wulfmann

the wolf gold runs like a sewing machine in my LWRC M6,and even my short uppers, I've been very happy with it

First off, I sincerely respect your opinions on here as we've both been members on here for almost the exact same amount of time.  While I'm not a frequent poster on here because I am easily frustrated with a lot of the childish behavior that is way to common place on ARFCOM, I have noticed that when I'm reading through threads that I find informative and interesting I typically find comments of yours that I almost always agree with.  But in this particular instance I believe that you are completely missing my point.

I'm not a weapons noob.  I do extensive machine work that I'd be willing to put up against most others.  I've done significant AR mods that have required extensive time, knowledge and skill.  Most I don't document on here but some I have.  My point is that I understand my firearm.  I also have the utmost respect for the level of engineering and outstanding quality that is synonymous with LWRC.  I would have never purchased a second LWRC if I hadn't been completely satisfied with the first.  Part of my point is that I don't have this issue with any other firearm including that first M6A2.  I understand that things evolve and changes, mostly improvements, have taken place since my first LWRC was produced.  I understand factors such as gas pressure, over and under gassed, buffer weights, spring weight etc.  I also know that there is the widest of ranges in ammo.  My point/question was not about the quality of my LWRC or unrealistic expectations, it was about wanting to know if anyone had similar experiences, if this was a fluke issue that might be resolved by further breaking in or if others had solved similar problems by a simple change of buffer/spring etc.  

I almost find your comment telling me that the sloppier tolerances of the DPMS does not make it a better weapon borderline offensive.  Even my very first AR wasn't a DPMS.  I held it next to a Stag model 1 and made the clear decision and walked out with the Stag as my first.  I wasn't in any way shape or form insinuating that the DPMS was superior.  I was simply making a point that to someone as new to ARs as my brother, it appeared (to him) as if his weapon was the better running, superior choice on that given day especially taking into account the dollars spent per weapon.  I'm not saying he's correct or that I should even be having that argument as it's a complete waste of time.  If there's one thing I've learned...everything my brother has is better than mine...he's my brother.

My point is that I've modded and chopped the crap out of my Sig 516s...they still ran every piece of shit ammo I threw at it.  Was it over gassed, probably.  It had more gas settings to allow me more options but it still ran on the standard.  Is my Sig a higher quality weapon...he'll no.  I'd pick the LWRC over it every time based on reputation and overall felt quality.  My Tavor chewed the Tulammo up and didn't remind me that I really should be using better ammo.  I AM as a matter of fact stocked up on quality ammo, but sometimes I just might want to use something different either because it's what was brought to the party or because it was all that was available.  

I understand everything you have said and wholeheartedly agree with almost all of it.  If my experience is the same as everyone else's and this is a rifle that no matter what doesn't like underpowered ammo and can't have a minor tweak to adjust then so be it.  I can live with it or unload it.  I was simply on a information finding mission looking for the technical info and experience of others.  I wasn't looking for condescending comments/opinions on proper ammo diets for my chosen firearm.  It's fair for LWRC to assume that I won't run reloaded ammo that I bought from Bubba at the gunshow but no such assumption should be made when using factory manufactured ammo.  Especially when their own operators manual states the following..."The M6 is designed to cycle with a broad spectrum of 5.56x45mm NATO and .223 Rem ammunition."  "Note:  5.56/.223 ammunition with projectiles of less than 50 grains are NOT recommended for use in M6 carbines."

I have very quickly, more so than any other weapon, found the limit and what they meant by "broad range of ammo".  This is a limitation that in all my other ARs or builds I have yet to reach.  So to argue the superiority of my LWRC over my other rifles is difficult right now.

BigBrakes

***Just wanted to add that if given the option, 100% of the time I'm definitely choosing quality 5.56 brass ammo over anything else.  The Tulammo is NOT my choice ammo not even to save a $ buck.  But there's times here when it's all that's on the shelves and sometimes family knows no better and either brings some to the range or buys as b-day gifts etc.

A wise man once said, "You feed a racehorse Twinkies and wonder why it farts".

Tula is the most underpowered stuff you will find on the shelves, but you already knew that.

Run it with a standard buffer for Tula, and put an adjustable gas block on it. Turn down the setting for full power ammo.

I have had to use a rod to punch out enough expended cases of Wolf and Tula out of LWRCs to never use steel case in a LWRC

I'm with you, OP. You pay good money for an expensive rifle, you want it to work with factory ammo.

Doesn't seem too much to ask.

It is actually too much to ask.  How can a rifle be gassed to run with ammo that is as much as 10% under SAAMI (Tulammo and some Wolf) spec and then not kick like a mother when ran with ammo that is 10 to 20% over SAAIMI spec (5.56 NATO in 55gr to 77gr)?
LWRC is producing a "duty grade" gun.....they want it to run with duty ammo and they aren't too worried about the stuff that is chronically under powered.

Wolf Gold has nothing in common with Wolf steel cased Bi-metal bullet ammo we are discussing.
Wolf Gold is a regular 55gr lead core bullet brass cases and is properly pressured for your gun.
It is made in Taiwan far from the Russian steel case factories.

Remember; Wolf is a marketing name not a manufacture.
Wolf Gold used to be made by Privi Partisan but when Privi started importing under their name the stop selling to Wolf

Wulfmann

OP, at no time did I intend to offend you (I sometimes do intend so it may be hard to tell when I mean to)
I was not (Intentionally) being condescending (although that is a natural gift I can do without trying)

I understand relatives can bring the wrong thing but if one brought you a case of cheap bulk oil for your new Porsche would you explain you don't use it and why or would you be nice and risk destroying the motor?

As for wives, well, Tula ammo as a gift from a wife for your LWRC is a sign for divorce
I mean, if you were to tell your friends "My wife ran off and took my LWRC" we would be shocked if you didn't follow with " I sure miss that rifle"

Please note, when I respond to a post I do so off the cuff with no forethought, no pondering no reflection before I click submit so I may not always be PC
I also answer for the broader viewers who may have similar questions as if you felt we were having a private conversation it would have been with IMs

I get (and got) the impression you were a good shooter and was having a hard time wondering why the Tula/wolf thing was not getting through.

Those Sigs may not be LWRCs but their lowers are one of the best designs made with the ambi release, built in QD and sprung for snug fit to upper

Now, as to condescending, if you don't have a Geissele in that LWRC by now I am not sure I can even talk to you any further


Wulfmann

You using M3 PMAGS?

Wulfmann,

No worries here, I just refuse to get into petty arguing here and was worried we were heading down that road.  But alls good I just think we have differing opinions here.  I am an experienced and regular shooter and am typically an AR snob ever since both joining the site and living a mere few minutes from Rainier Arms and a short day trip from Noveske.  Once I owned their products I never looked back.  Again., I completely agree with you comments and totally relate to the oil analogy.  I am very picky when it comes to that sort of thing and agree that running cheap oil ain't gonna happen.  But for the sake of comparison, my truck would run with  "X" brand oil if I was in a pinch.  Yes, I'd change it at next available opportunity and it would bug me till then.  But it would get me back and forth to work just fine till then.

I also understand the above comment about the LWRC being set-up and prepared to be a duty weapon that runs higher pressure ammo.  But it's a weapon also advertised as an over the counter recreational weapon as well.  At several fun stores it's common practice (at least my experience) for there to be package deal where you buy a rifle and get a couple extra mags and a bulk pack of 100 rounds of cheap ammo.  I see noob shooters jump on this sorta thing all the time.  I'm just saying imagine a new buyer dropping some cash, heading out to the range to plink and impress his buds with his new toy and "click".  

Last couple things I want to say on the matter then be done with this as I don't won't to argue as I firmly believe we are going to just have to agree to disagree.

1. I still would like to hear from those with the same rifle and whether or not they have similar results with similar or any other ammo besides just Tulammo.  Are there other ammo brands to avoid as well?  And if for no other reason than curiosity I'm going to run it with a different buffer and spring.

2. I emailed LWRC for their official stance/advice and am curious what their response will be.

3. I guess I wish there was an additional gas setting to truly meet their declaration of "broad" range of 5.56 and .223 ammo.  Basically a little more versatility as you mentioned that your PWS and my Sigs have.  At least give the option to run cheap and dirty.  And I'll take full responsibility here for knowing I purchased a rifle with 2 gas settings.  I just didn't foresee this issue.  Lesson learned.

I have wanted a PWS since I first saw their uppers on the shelves at Rainier Arms when I was stationed up there.  Maybe this is my excuse to trade into something else.  I tend to constantly trade and change things up anyway.  There's only a few firearms I have that I'd never get rid of.  Everything else is always on the table as part my BRD problem.

BigBrakes

Both Gen 2 and 3 as well as a couple GI mags.  Same results.

LWRC will get your right. I'm pretty sure they are meant to run on all ammo even the cheapest shit. All my LWs shoot EVERYTHING.

My point in that was if he's looking for quality affordable ammo, I would recommend wolf gold.  From what I had found it was the cheapest brass ammo that wasn't complete garbage.  In fact, I may like it better than 193.  YMMV

Yanking your chain a little bit earlier but........

I've never fed that stuff through my L'dub's but I have talked to guys that have run thousands of rounds through theirs no problem. Just extra, extra dirty low powered stuff.

First LWRC was M6A2 Operator.  One of the limited 100 produced models.  Picked it up from Rainier.  At that time the real advantage to buying that model over any other was it came with their then new ambi lowers.  It was also one of their first models with the spiral fluted barrels, at least that I was aware of.  As an A2 is was NOT an adjustable gas model.  Which I was completely fine with because at the time I wasn't in a suppressor friendly state and had no intentions of even going that way.  Anyway, point of the story is that it ran absolutely everything without issue.  At first I was all ate up about the rifle and treated it with kid gloves as I had it in my mind that it's limited nature meant it was going to worth something later.  But the more I thought about it and looked at it, I realized I really wanted to use the shit out of it.  And I did!  I felt a little bad the times I used steel cased ammo and would rush home to clean after but never a hiccup during thousands of rounds fired by myself and friends I was getting into the hobby.

I ended up trading that rifle for a Wilson Combat 1911 but had enjoyed it so much I knew I'd have another one.  As soon as I saw the ICs i knew it was time to get another.  Again I was originally tempted to treat such a nice and expensive rifle with extreme care.  But I remembered how short life is and that rifles as high of quality as that are built to run and use and keep coming back asking for more.  That's ultimately what I'm looking for.

BigBrakes

Have you called CS yet? I'm confident they will get you squared away. I'm with you on the gas block. I bought one of the 1st 500 IC's. Cool feature, but I have no plans for a suppressor. Ear pro is so much cheaper.

My mistake on quotes now corrected



You did not, however, make that point clearly and it appeared you were unaware of the vast difference in what you recommended and what we were discussing in Russian made steel cased Bi-metal bullet ammo which has nothing in common with the Wolf brass cased lead core FMJ ammo made in Taiwan.

You are correct and I do agree it is a great buy and a good choice for any AR plinking/range ammo and there seems to be a price war going with this brand.
It was $356.00/1K but then dropped to $349 then $339 and now Wideners has dropped the price to $329.00/1K which to my knowledge is the cheapest price of any brass cased 223 ammo (as of today).

Please note: Wideners was recently hacked badly and is not taking online orders so you must call their toll free number to order anything but think of it as being paid $10.00 for making the call and it sounds better.

Wulfmann

I believe Mr. rooftop voter made the statement in red, but I'm picking up what you're putting down.  I'm not comparing anything, as I am in the don't shoot steel cased bi-metal crowd.  I'm assuming he shoots it because it is cheap and was suggesting an alternative.  I also agree that L Dubs should shoot anything you feed it though.

Thanks, and you are correct and I have edited my post to so reflect

I remember a few years back testing various 5.56/223 in a FNH FS2000 Bullpup which has an adjustable gas system
That was right after Wolf had stopped importing Uly made "Wolf" and started shipping Barnaul made Wolf re-badged WPA
The older Uly made stuff was underpowered and required a different setting to function but the WPA Barnaul made Wolf ran on the regular setting

I mention this because I pondered if I had to change the gas setting and did not change it back I would create over pressure and at the least accelerated wear and perhaps even damage meaning underpowered ammo created a less than desirable set of possibilities and rather than adjust my settings it made more sense to me to just give it proper ammo that required no adjustment to the gun.
This would insure no mistakes on settings if I did not restore them.

I do understand the OP's desire to have that capability so no matter what an accommodation can be had in case of underpowered ammo (which means out of spec, IMO) as he would have the option he chooses and not no option, his current state

Wulfmann

Just a quick update as I'm stuck at home today with kids that have strep throat.

I emailed LWRC on Sunday...still no response.

Called first thing this morning to follow up...left message as no one was available.  Hoping for call back soon.

BigBrakes

Just my take, but a $2,500 gas piston AR15 should be able to chew up any ammo you feed it. Period! Yes there is junk ammo out there that's cheap, but God forbid something happen where you have to leave your home with your rifle and the only thing you can find laying around is cheap Wolff or Tulammo then your rifle better damn well shoot it or it's nothing but a pretty $2,500 paper weight.

If the $800 DPMS DI gun will shoot cheap ass tulammo then that $2,500 LWRC better do it to.

(btw I'm not talking about out of spec or light load ammo, but if an expensive rifle like that has a picky appetite then why does it cost so much? Aren't you paying for that diversity?)

It does shoot any 5.56/223 ammo.
It does not shoot out of spec ammo like Tula and some no longer made Wolf that was like Tula under powered and Wolf switched makes to address those complaints.
IMO your post contradicts itself because you state it should shoot the out of spec Tula but should not be expected to shoot the out of spec ammo (like Tula).

I agree that if in your opinion a gun like the DPMS with less precise engineering allows it to function with crap ammo is important to you then you should own such guns

Wulfmann

As of now I still haven't received a response to my email or phone call from LWRC.  If I haven't heard back by Monday ill give them another call.

As far as confirmation of the Tulammo in question being out of spec, I do not have the necessay equipment to confirm that.  And even if I did, LWRC has not provided enough info to know if it would or wouldnt meet their required spec based on findings.  As ive already mentioned, LWRCs manual does not specify particular brands to be avoided.  It does make a few "recommendations" in various places for various things but recommendations are just that by definition.  It also states that the rifle is designed to work with a broad range of ammo but doesnt specify the limits of that.

I have agreed again and again that steel cased Tulammo is not top notch ammo, but I stand firm in my opinion that it SHOULD still function properly.  If LWRC themselves define to me that it wont, shouldnt and will never work properly ill at least have a definitive answer.  Until then, the opinions here are just that.  If afforded the opportunity I will be asking why the same ammo works in the other model LWRC I formally owned.

Also, my 2ea 6920s, my LMT MRP, my BCM build, my Rainier build, my Sig 516 and my Tavor all function fine with ammo from the same lot.  As did my brother's DPMS.  Yet Im to still believe that nothing is wrong???

I will never be convinced that this particular LWRC is superior to any of the above mentioned firearms that have run thousands of rounds without a single similar problem.  The logic isnt there to support that arguement.  I agree that my LWRC is a beautiful machine and that attention to detail is superior...just not the detail of consistent function.  

As I mentioned in my first post, its as if its almost right there to feed the next round which translates to me it is only missing a small amount of required pressure.  I want to add my thought here.  This is the 14.7" model.  I believe that if it were the full 16" it would probably have the necessary pressure. Im only wondering if the shorter barrel needs the appropiate gas port?  Whats the size difference if there is one?  

Right now this firearm is prettier than my others but hasnt come close to proving its superiority in function.

BigBrakes

OP I solved your issue a long time ago by deciding to never shoot anything but brass. It hurts sometimes especially when ammo prices really jump during a scare but I've never had any issues unlike others I've seen trying to pull stuck steel casings out of their chambers at the range.

I agree this rifle should function on junk ammo--they all should.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

How junky can the ammo be and have you expect the gun to eat it?  Half powder charge with cornmeal filler?  I could sell that to you pretty cheap.  How about just a primer and all cornmeal filler.  That'd be even cheaper.

All machines require all components to be within design specifications to properly function.  That includes ammo.  If a machine will still work with out of spec parts...gravy!  But expecting and demanding it to is not reasonable.

The rifle will not operate reliably with ammunition powered below industry standard.

It's not going to change.  No ding on the rifle or its design, the OP is unreasonably demanding that the machine work with his out of spec ammo.

The OP is unhappy with this.

He needs to sell it and buy something that will work with his out of spec components.

How do we know the ammo is out of spec?  Past experiences of others?

Why does every other firearm mentioned not have the same issue?

Curious, of the other AR design rifles mentioned, are any mid length gas system and what buffer are they using?  Honestly, it really sounds like you can simply swap your buffer and call it a day. Grab an H1 and a normal carbine buffer and do some experimenting. I'm rather confident one of them will make your rifle work with lower pressure rounds.

Betting a combination of your mid length gas system with an H2 buffer is just too much for the weaker loads. But as I am sure you know, a buffer change takes all of 5 seconds to do and will probably fix all your problems.

I'm thinking same thing about changing the buffer.  I would have hit the range this morning but have family plans this weekend.

The other rifles...

Colts obviously carbine gas with H buffer.
Sig 516 is carbine gas length piston.  H buffer.  Biggest advantage here is additional gas setting if necessary.  When I cut to 14.5" length on barrel I considered opening gas port but it ended up not being necessary.
Both builds are mid length gas barrels with H buffers.  Standard 1/7 twist chrome lined barrels.  BCM and Rainier barrels.
I am not yet that technically familiar with the Tavor.  Its chambered for 5.56 but functions flawlessly with the Tulammo.
I don't have the former M6A2 but if I remember correctly, it had same length gas piston system as my IC but had just an H buffer.  I'm curious if anything in piston system changed.  Did spring on the op rod change specs at all?  Any other possible changes?  Anyone know gas port measurements of different models?

As I mentioned in previous post, is there any differences any experts on here are aware of between an IC with 16" barrel vs 14.7" barrel?  Does LWRC maintain same size gas ports in both the barrel and adjustable gas block?  Just curious here.  Also, what is the benefit of an H2 buffer over standard H?  Does it make that much difference?  Hard data to support?  

I'm really interested in what LWRC has to say as it's their product and they should know best.  If they tell me to shut up and color, I'll accept that.  No other owners of same rifle with experiences to share?  

I am a little frustrated that I haven't heard back from LWRC yet.

I had an SPR with a 16" barrel and still have a 14.7" model. I noticed no difference in performance between the two. My IC is a slightly different animal.

Anyhoo, I haven't run any steel cased ammo in years. Call 'em again. Can't hurt.

While I agree using under powered ammo like Tula should not be a factor the OP and anyone else has a right to their opinion and if they feel this gun should run Tula and it does not well, sell it.

In my experience higher end tighter tolerance things tend to require fuel that is also more precise but the OP has every right to have it do as he wants.

I too await what LWRC has to say. I would bet they at the very least recommend you do not use steel case ammo but I could be wrong

Wulfmann

Talked to Ed at LWRC today.  Explained my issue/concerns.  He wants to discuss it with another tech and assured me he would be getting back with me within the next couple days.  His preliminary thought was to have me ship the rifle back for them to look at.

More to come.

BigBrakes

Commercial industry standard? SAMMI. NATO ammo has it's own standard.

I took these photos while cleaning the other day.  I apparently had forgotten that the gas regulator was not removable from the gas block like in other manufacturer's rifles.  I had hoped to pull it out and look at the ports and take some measurements for comparison sake.  Not gonna happen, at least till I'm ready to void the warranty.

I was expecting more crud considering the amount of rounds fired and the use of the cheap ammo.  Not near as bad as I had predicted.

A couple other minor observations...

1.  Note the wear on the charging handle and you can kind of see the matching wear in the picture of the upper receiver.  While I am used to wear in this area on all of my AR type rifles, I have never seen it quite so excessive from one range session.  Not complaining, just making an observation.  And before anyone asks, I generously lube that area.  Second picture shows it best.  Its not just finish being worn off, we are talking a good .020" of material gone towards the front of the wear where it is the worst.





2.  Note the machine marks on the upper side of the gas block.  Not used to seeing that on high end ARs.  Again, not complaining or claiming it effects function, just an unexpected observation.  Im used to these corner cutting marks on my Sig's gas blocks but not typical of LWRC craftsmanship.  Flash kinda hides the depth of the marks.  Deep enough to catch your finger nail  when dragging across.



Anyway, I'm mostly adding these pics because I had them available, they show the firearm in question and everyone likes pics.

BigBrakes.

Looks like you found your issue.

Friday afternoon.   No emails or call back from LWRC yet.  I'll have to re-attack on Monday.

BigBrakes