Could someone shed some light on these AR's for me? Pros vs Cons?

I'll just get this out now, I don't work for Hogan, nor do I have and "juice" there.  I'm just a guy who enjoys a good solid rifle backed by excellent customer service.

OK, I'll start with the Cons:  Other than their a bit on the expensive side, there are none.  Well, I guess if one wanted to nitpick, the rail sits a bit high, but it's not all that much of an issue.  And as far as price goes, in this market, it's right on par.  But I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for, buy once, you cry once.  I personally don't make a lot of money, so if I'm gonna spend good coin, then it's gonna be done right the first time.  

On the Pro side; it's the nicest damn rifle I have ever shot backed by some of the best customer service I have ever experienced.  I have owned both the H-223 & the H-308 in both 16" and 18" variants.   Hogan makes the majority of their own parts in house as they are a fully operating machine shop.  They actually make the majority of the parts for G.A. Precision's rifles, and from my understanding, they also make some stuff for some heavy hitters in the industry.  They are tight lipped on that one though as I'm sure there's a contract somewhere.....  They used to make rifles for POF-USA, but they had a parting of ways and Hogan makes their own rifles under their own name now.  That's all I'm going to say about POF-USA.  Hogan also owns the patent to this rifles design.  That's indisputable and can be found in their industry thread, so you may see the patent yourself.  

Now, from my understanding, Hogan based their piston design on the battle proven FAL.  It's also my understanding that H&K "imitated" or "borrowed" some of Hogan's design ideas.  We all know what they say about imitation, "It's often the best form of flattery."  It's a short stroke gas piston design.  Everything on the rifle is top notch, from the Rock Creek fluted barrel, to the Gold Standard Trigger, to the upper and lower receiver.  It shoots nice and straight.  Out of all my time on the military and Law Enforcement, I have either shot, owned, or been issued a plethora of M-16/AR variants.  The Hogan rifle is bar none the nicest shooting and most reliable rifle platform that I have ever come across.  I'm not saying that the others were junk, as I have owned some damn fine rifles in my time.  I'm simply stating that in my opinion, the Hogan is the best of the bunch.  

As far as customer service goes, Hogan will be hard to beat.  I once called on a Sunday afternoon last fall, expecting to leave a v/m with a question that I had.  The owner, Robert Hogan, answered the phone.  He was working in the shop on Sunday.  This was before the last "election" as well.  So, there wasn't the panic that there is today.  Robert Hogan and his crew stand behind their product 110%.  I cannot personally attest to how problems are handled as I have had no major issues and I have had many a rounds through my Hogan Rifles.  It's available with several options to include NP3 coated, to black or green anodized, to FDE or OD Green Cerakoted.  It offers two different rail platforms, Hunter & tactical.  The Hunter is for those with larger optics.  I have owned both and personally prefer the Hunter Rail as I can get a good solid C Clamp on the front of the upper.  You can get a good grip on either, I just prefer the Hunter Rail.  

I cannot attest to how long it will go without being cleaned.  I have this OCD complex from being a Paratrooper.  My weapons are always clean and my boots are always polished.  I just can't help that one.  I asked Paul once how long he went without cleaning his and I believe his answer was "just over 14,000 rounds now."  I would not hesitate to carry this rifle system into combat.  In a way, I do.  I carried it everyday on patrol in my old agency and do the same today.  It patrols with me every day as I trust it with not only my life, but that of my partner's lives, and the citizens that I am sworn to protect.  

There are many great AR manufacturers out there.  IMO, if you want the very best, buy a Hogan Rifle.



It's a great system.  I'd encourage you to buy one as you won't regret it.  Steve Reichert, the USMC's top sniper, wrote up a review of the Hogan H-308.  Here's what he had to say about it:




Another detailed review can be found here.

Your question is very generic. I hope you're not asking DI vs Piston Pros and Cons which has been beaten to death.

I have a Gen II POF P415 which is probably build by Hogan. It has the Predator P4x rail.
This rail is a signature of Hogan/POF rifle which slide over the flat top receiver, so it does NOT touch the barrel or barrel nut.

It is rock solid on my P415, but a little front heavy. The piston rod is not spring loaded, so when the BCG is held back by the catch, this rod can move around and makes noise. A little annoying for me but I got over it.

The piston system is very similar to FAL which I also own. But it is definitly not the same as HK416 which using thier own G36 piston design. Early HK416 has no gas adjustment, but FAL (7 setting) and POF (2 setting: normal and suppressed) has user set gas adjustment. Hogan/POF system does NOT require the removal of the handguard to get to the piston, HK416 does, so that could be a pro.

Hogan rifles are heavy and the rails are not slim and low profile such as the Larue or DD.  I had a chance to see a couple piston rifles work in a 5 day carbine class with other DI guns.  The other piston rifle worked without any issue along with the DI guns.  The Hogan had some issues just about every day, it was popping primers and everyone was using the same ammo. Oh yes the price is a bit much even during the non panic times.

There not all that much heavier.  I've played with a Larue and a DD, as well as many others.  It's a tad more weight, but not too bad.  But, your comparing DI vs Piston, two different animals.  I wonder if it was that exact rifle?  That's weird, as I have used my Hogan rifle in carbine classes and not 1 issue with it.  Hell, my son and I both competed in the A.C.T.S. CRC 2 gun match last fall.  Both of us used Hogan's and not a hiccup, all was well.  All I shoot is steel cased ammo, my son shot whatever cheap junk we could find at the time.  Did you try to address the problem with the rifle or investigate the cause?  Those rifles are garbage disposals, they eat everything.  

Yes, the price is a bit higher during "non-panic Times" but it's money well spent.  Hell, Larue's rifles are very nice and very expensive, all the time.  I won't knock em as they are imo one of the best DI rifles around.  I prefer a piston driven myself.  The Hogan get's it done.  I rely on it to bring me home every night, should the unfortunate need be there to actually use it.....

The Hogan website says the standard 5.56 model weights about 7 pounds 7 ounces, basically 7 and a half pounds. For a piston gun that costs $1800, that is unacceptable to me when there are other equally reliable piston ARs that cost and weigh less, like Adams Arms/Huldra (a 14.5 inch riflle weighs 6.6 pounds and can be had for $1500ish pre panic) or ADCOR BEAR (14.5 inch model weighs 6.8 pounds also $1500ish). Or guns like the LWRC that only cost 300-500 more then the Hogan, have a long standing record of reliability and toughness, and still weigh less (their M6 IC wights 6.9 and costs $2300-2400).

If weight isn't an issue for you then it looks a like a good rifle. I just think that its unnecessarily heavy and expensive. Personally I have also never been a fan of rails that clamp onto the top of the receiver, it complicates optic and iron sight mounting, and tends to be heavier then fore ends that attach to the barrel nut because of the extra material stretching over the receiver. And if I am honest, it just looks wrong to me. Again if its the rifle you want, get it, I would just suggest that you look around a little first and check out your other options first (you have plenty of time, its not like these will be readily available for a while anyway).

The adams/huldra and adcor are listed as govt profile lighter weight barrels.  Ditto for LWRC M6 IC.  The hogan barrel is a medium profile and flutted.  the heavier barrel accounts for the weight differance.  the quality of the rock creek 5R barrel in the hogan matters for accuracy.  Further the heat sink barrel nut& monolithic rail uppers design make the upper more rigid for optics mounting(no gap to bridge) like other designs.

The ADCOR and Adams/Huldra are government profile barrels, the M6 IC however is not, you can see that here in this photo.
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/nlsqf.xqukk/v/vspfiles/photos/M6A2R5CKF14PICUPPER-5.jpg
So it is true that some of the weight savings from the ADCOR and Adams/Huidra comes from their barrel profile, in the case of the IC it has a very thick barrel that has been heavily fluted. even if you were to put thicker "full profile" barrels in a gun like the ADCOR, your only adding a max of 3-5 ounces compared to the government profile (I am talking 14.5 barrel length bassed on the weight information I was able to find, so this particular point my not be 100% accurate), and they would still weigh less then the Hogan. Also, the ADCOR itself has at least proven to be a very accurate platform, with a 14.5 inch version maintaining sub-moa accuracy with match ammo, now the Hogan barrel may (and very likely does) preform better when hot, but is no more or less mechanically accurate then other comparable designs.

As far as the rails go, the massive barrel nut/heat sink seems unnecessary to me, if you plan on putting enough rounds through your rifle to get any kind of genuine benefit out of them, you are probably the kind of shooter that is still going to end up with a hot rifle at the end of the day anyway. If you're worried about heat transfer from the rails to your hands, a few rail covers and a good pair of shooting gloves solves the problem for a fraction of the weight. And the deal with the gap isn't much of an issue in my mind either. The only kind of optic where that might be an issue are high power scopes, and most if not all good scope mounts meant to work with ARs are set up so you can mount the optic just on the rails on the upper receiver itself, so the "gap" isn't even involved, so this rail system gives you a benefit you don't really need for extra weight that doesn't need to be there, not to mention the fact that the rail is elevated compared to most other AR pattern rifles, requiring the end user to find a non-standard height mount to get the same cheekweld. And in some ways, the rail isn't really "monolithic" in comparison to other systems. A true monolithic rail means that the upper receiver and at least the upper half of the rail system are one continuous piece of material, like the Vltor, Aero, and the now out of production Mega arms uppers. The rail system for the Hogan is bolted onto the upper receiver, so in my mind calling the system "monolithic" is somewhat  misrepresentative, as the receiver and rail are two unique and sperate components. Personally I think monolithic rails/uppers in general are over sold, so I don't hold this against the Hogan, I just don't think their rail attachment system is size/weight/ and (at least potentially since the system requiers a non-standard receiver) cost efficient.

So there is my rant, again, it looks like a good gun, and if its what the OP wants, then he should buy it, i just don't think it is an efficient design, it maybe be reliable and accurate (and all reliable indications seem to say that it is indeed very much both of these) and if you don't mind the weight, or if this is going to be more of a bench gun, then go for it, it will most likely serve you very well for many years. All I am saying is that just because something is very capable, doesn't mean it gets you those capabilities efficiently and I encourage the OP to look at what other options are available to him.

If you do get a Hogan, I would highly suggest you get their "Hero" model as it uses a standard receiver, is their least expensive, and presumably their lightest because of the polymer hand guards (I say presumably because the website does not actually give weight information for this model). This also gives the added benefit that you could at some point possibly swap the polymer hand guards for a compatible lighter more conventional rail at a time of your choosing (and the gas block comes with a bayonet lug, whats not to like about that?)

If your rifle is 5.56 I find that very hard to believe, no pun intended. My hogan has over 5000 rounds fired without cleaning it. Now the 308 is a whole different animal. Same quality as a larue or noveske IMHO.

Yup

Thats quite the statement regarding the .308, is this made due to first hand or direct experience with all weapon systems? I'm curious as I'm waiting on my Hogan .308, and was wondering how it stacks against what are considered the premium .308 rifles

I cannot speak for the Noveske as I have no experience with one.  I have handled a Larue and it was very nice.  I actually liked it a lot.  But, it's still not a Hogan.  Larue and Noveske are different animals as they are DI.  I just don't get why people just can't seem to grasp that fact.......   THIS IS THE PISTON SECTION OF THE AR on AR-15.COM     Why are people still comparing DI and Piston in the piston forum when people are asking about piston driven systems....  If you can't read, you probably shouldn't be playing with firearms anyway...... I have shot and played with a LWRC REPR and it was nice, but it's not a gun for a lefty.  It's also quite heavy.  I shot and played with the SCAR-H as well.  I'd still take my Hogan H-308 and Hogan H-223 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

No rant at all.  well presented arguments.  the LWRC does have a similiar weight barrel profile.  The other differances in rail design and attachment will show weight saving.  The Magpul MOE grip and stock will also save weight over the Hogans ERGO grip and VLTOR IMOD stock.  Not 8ozs worth in furniture, but still heavier, maybe even better balanced with the weight increase in the rear of the rifle.

True the Hogan 2pc monolithic isnt the same as the 1pc designs out there, however the issue comes down to patents etc.  Hogan has the patent for a 2pc monolithic upper design, LMT has the patent (that killed all other 1pc units:VLTOR, MEGA, etc). since Hogan has a patented design, they are going to use it over other designs.
 
The HERO model is nice, a bit lighter for sure(no rails).  who really cares about a bayonet lug in this day and age?  Also, the HERO lacks the better trigger and uses a MOE grip and stock(all lighter weight then the standard railed rifles).

I too would like to know more.  How many rounds through your H308?  what else can you tell us about the H308 from your experiences with one?

I personally have owned the P308-16(it didnt work well, sent it in 3times, then sold it off) went back to what I know(M1A, FAL) then bought a scarH.  Sold all the others after getting the scarH.
Ive owned the H223-14 & put many thousands of rounds down range with it.  runs great, great accuracy(.75MOA @100yds 5shot group with PMC bronze) good balance. the Hogan Gold Standard Trigger was awesome and surely why the rifle was capapble of those types of groups.

I have had some first hand experiences with a few 308's that my shooting buddies have, also their experiences, trial and errors, etc. Most 308 AR platforms tend to be ammo sensitive.
Now the quality statement was meant to be directed at the 556 platforms, not the 308.
I have yet to own a 308, but I have half of a Hogan H308 in my safe. Their accuracy is excellent and is 100% American  made...

Yea I can't wait to get mine in (Just a few more weeks.....) I was curious as to how these stack up against their DI counter parts (Artic) It wasn't meant to be a discussion on the merits/downfalls of either operating system, just a comparison on accuracy.  Some say that the extra moving parts can be problematic, others don't, at the end of the day, the accuracy tells all, given the same shooter on different weapons, hence my question to crackshot...  I've made my decision as far as a rifle, obviously, now I just want to get as much additional information as possible.

Pitcher

Great timing on this thread.  I just ordered (3) .308 Lowers.

Ahhh, gotcha.  The accuracy with a Hogan is superb, as long as the shooter is experienced.  I'm sure there is a difference with some companies rifles, but imo, it's the shooter more than the rifle.  My first piston setup was my old Bushy Carbon Fiber.  I converted it to an Osprey Defense Gas Piston.  It shot the same, perhaps a tad softer.  It was just much easier to clean and I had piece of mind knowing it would run filthy as hell.  

As far as Hogan, It is the most accurate and smooth shooting rifle I have ever shot.  If the quality is any indication, my 15 y/o son and I took part in the CRC 7 shoot for A.C.T.S. (American Confederation of Tactical Shooters) last fall.  My son was shooting a Hogan 16" upper on his lower.  He was complimented left and right at his shooting ability.  Even when he hit the 200 yard steel target with nothing more than a Vortex Strikefire.  Pretty good for a 15 year old.  That right there was a combination of marksmanship and a damn fine rifle.  

For those that don't know A.C.T.S. is one of the most fun times you can have competing.  There is really no "static" shooting.  You are constantly shooting, moving, and using cover.  

You sir, will love your Hogan.  

I have never heard of them and their claims seem a bit bush league... Personally I will stick with my usual suspects as I have no reason to change.

No reason to change?  Should you be in the piston forum then

Pros: seems to always work.  I have had POF rifles since '06 they always work.  Have a 18" hogan that always works.

Cons: really don't like the rail system after all these years.  The height over is just a little much.

Not trying to start a war. But you have been pretty lucky.

Pretty lucky that the POF worked or the Hogan?  I know personally that Hogan Rifles run like a raped ape.  On the off chance if one were to ever have a problem, I also know that the guys over there at Hogan would bend over backwards to make it right.  I personally don't think that Robert Hogan ever sleeps, unless he has a cot in the shop.  I have called on a Sunday, and occasionally forgotten the time difference and called early in the am and at night and that guy is always there working......  I've expected to leave a v/m and the man ends up answering the phone.....  

I love the rifle system.  Sure, the rail is a tad high on it.  ON that note though, I don't mind it.  I feel confident that if I have an issue, a question, or wan to order something extra, then I can call and get the man on the phone or someone there to help me out.  It speaks miles when the owner of a HUGE company like that can take a moment to address a question from a customer.  Plus, the lady who answers the phone is always do damn happy.  It's refreshing to hear the positiveness when she answers the phone.  With stuff like that going for Hogan Guns, It's a great purchase imo.

Not a POF fan. I really have very limited exposure to Hogan. It seemed to run just fine.

I've had my Hogan H-308 for almost 3 months and have a little over a hundred rounds through it. In 4 trips to the range and out of the hundred rounds that actually made it through the barrel it ruined 20 rounds. The gun has been back to the factory twice and still isn't right. And now I'm being treated like the redheaded stepchild. They should be ashamed that this alleged high end gun ever left the factory in the defective state it was in when i bought it! All I want is what I paid for. . .a gun that works properly. Is that to much to ask? You definetly wont burn through ammo with this gun. Hope this helps

Whats going on at Hogan? No QC and crappy customer service. I've been trying for 3 months to get my 308 squared away and what started as a happy relationship has turned ugly. Apparently I'n not the only one that has sent there gun back there multiple times just to have it come back screwed up. I told the owner when I meet him in Jan. the main reason I bought the Hogan was because I want to support local business and I heard they had great customer service on top of quality product. Well I did support a local business but got no quality or service. Something must be going on but there reputation is sure taking a hit in the meantime!

Not to good. Maybe it has POF syndrome?

Can you go grab the rifle since you are local, take it to the range and make a video showing the problems?  I am curious as to what is going on.

I think it's something to do with mag receiver not being milled properly. I thought about filming it AFTER I left the range. It's sitting at the gun shop and what I plan on doing is breaking it down and comparing the lower with the lower from the owners Hogan and see if there is a visual imperfection that can be seen. Otherwise I may take it to the range anyway and film it for a Youtube reveiw.

That would be great.  I don't know where you are in AZ but it's not that big of a state.  Have you thought of going over to Glendale and visiting the factory?  I read your post in another thread.  I just can't see customer service being bad there.  Robert Hogan has one of the best business ethics I have ever heard of.  When you call on a random Sunday afternoon to leave a v/m and the owner answers the phone, that there is dedication.  If you think that the specs are off, why not just go there and confront them directly?  That would make the most sense to me, seeming as you state that it's been back twice for repairs.